32x32 Workshop Wiring

[Max]

Very nice shop!

When you run the conduit, I would also run 1 or 2 cat5e cables for computers, phone, etc. Even better, but more spendy, would be fiber as it avoids potential lighting/induced current issues. Don’t put the cat5e in the conduit with the power. I think that you can put the cat5e in the same trench above the conduit but others here will know better. If it was me I’d use cat5e cable rated for direct burial and not more PVC conduit.

Max

 

[mike93lx]

Very nice shop!

When you run the conduit, I would also run 1 or 2 cat5e cables for computers, phone, etc. Even better, but more spendy, would be fiber as it avoids potential lighting/induced current issues. Don’t put the cat5e in the conduit with the power. I think that you can put the cat5e in the same trench above the conduit but others here will know better. If it was me I’d use cat5e cable rated for direct burial and not more PVC conduit.

Max

CAT6E would be the way to go. CAT5e certainly works, but for all the effort, putting in the latest tech makes more sense.

A 1000ft spool of waterproof direct burial is $215 at wire and cable your way. Run two lines and sell off the rest

 

[Max]

Cat5e is good for 1 Gb/s ethernet. At this length (300’ plus) there may be some performance loss, I am not sure. Cat6e is good for 10 Gb/s ethernet, and for cost reasons I didn’t suggest it for a garage.

GigE is very common now, but 2.5/5/10G is much more rare and spendy. And frankly, for most consumer stuff it’s not needed. PCs reading/writing to a drive are typically 25-100 MB/s (100 MB/s is 800 Mb/s.). So only if you have higher end NAS drives or a compute server in your garage would you notice the difference.

I do agree, if the delta cost is not an issue, 6e is the most future froof.

Max

PS. I do know that 1 Gb/s is the absolute maximum, and there are protocol losses, retransmissions, etc. that reduce bandwidth somewhat. But once again, unless you’ve got a data center in your garage I don’t see the need...

 

[HIG]

Very nice shop!

Don’t put the cat5e in the conduit with the power. I think that you can put the cat5e in the same trench above the conduit but others here will know better. If it was me I’d use cat5e cable rated for direct burial and not more PVC conduit.

Max

Thank you for all the replies, I've been a little preoccupied. My codes officer informed me I have a few issues with my back stairs. (1) I need an actual handrailing going down the stairs, the 2x4 on top will not work. I'm looking into lengths of stainless steel pipe with brackets or painted pine ones. (2) I need to have my risers blocked off, not necessarily the whole thing but same as the balusters so a 4" sphere won't pass though (makes sense). (3) I need to bolt my 4x4 post. I still need to verify some things so I haven't called the power company yet.

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Thank you for bringing up the cat5/6 cable, that was on the list to figure out.

How much room should I have in between the power conduit and the cat5/6 wire?

Is it recommended to bury it in the same trench?

Thanks, Steve

 

[HIG]

CAT6E would be the way to go. CAT5e certainly works, but for all the effort, putting in the latest tech makes more sense.

A 1000ft spool of waterproof direct burial is $215 at wire and cable your way. Run two lines and sell off the rest

Thank you for the reply!!

Do I want shielded or non shielded Cat6 wire?

I'd have to run about 200' of internet wire, not as far as my service wire.

Here's a link I found:

https://www.primuscable.com/store/p...ect-Burial-Outdoor-Shielded-Solid-23-AWG.aspx

I have no idea about this cable so any info/links would be greatly appreciated!!

I'm wondering for $40 if it would be worth running it in 1/2" conduit, that way I could always pull something else if it gets outdated or damaged?

Thanks again, Steve

 

[Heap64]

Thank you for the reply!!

Do I want shielded or non shielded Cat6 wire?

I'd have to run about 200' of internet wire, not as far as my service wire.

Here's a link I found:

https://www.primuscable.com/store/p...ect-Burial-Outdoor-Shielded-Solid-23-AWG.aspx

I have no idea about this cable so any info/links would be greatly appreciated!!

I'm wondering for $40 if it would be worth running it in 1/2" conduit, that way I could always pull something else if it gets outdated or damaged?

Thanks again, Steve

My history with copper network cables outside and lightning surges blowing out network gear wasn't the best. You might want to look into fiber and media converters on each end?

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[DSMR]

I agree with fiber as well. Might as well future proof your internet connection

 

[mike93lx]

I agree with fiber as well. Might as well future proof your internet connection

Cat6e is more than plently for his lifetime and probably the next owner.

Conduit won't hurt to run as well. Unshielded wire, make sure it is wet rated, even if in conduit, since water will get in the conduit

 

[HIG]

This is what I'm currently thinking for my 100 amp sub feed in the garage, like I said before it will be about 270'. I'm leaning towards the sub feed compared to a new entrance. I will use the trench to run the Cat6 cable also.

2/0 Black Stranded AL USE-2 Cable - 3 Req'd $0.77 3 $2.31
#2 Black Stranded AL USE-2 Cable - 1 Req'd $0.43 1 $0.43
2 in. x 10 ft. PVC Schedule 40 Conduit $0.76 1 $0.76
$3.50 Total

These prices are from Home Depot but I will do some more shopping around. I'd be looking at $3.50 a foot to run 2/0-2/0-2/0-#2 through 2" PVC conduit. If I stepped up to 4/0-4/0-4/0-#2 in 2" conduit I'd be looking at $3.95.

Does that sound like a good route? Is the #2 ground sized correctly or should that be larger, I realize I will need to drive grounding rods also?

Thanks again, Steve

 

[mike93lx]

Three 4/0 in 2" conduit over 270'? That sounds like it would ****, a lot.

I would assume 2 is small for the ground as 2/0 SER uses 1 for ground. I am sure someone can confirm

Yes, you need ground rods.

I would really think about your loads. Do you benefit from having more than 100a service? The cost differential isn't huge, so maybe it is worth bumping up. I probably would

 

[DSMR]

Cat6e is more than plently for his lifetime and probably the next owner.

Conduit won't hurt to run as well. Unshielded wire, make sure it is wet rated, even if in conduit, since water will get in the conduit

Not according to Moore's law. Also, with the long distance, fiber is a superior choice for mitigating signal deterioration (I know, I know, 100 meters). Run Cat6 in your shop as needed though.

 

[HIG]

Not according to Moore's law. Also, with the long distance, fiber is a superior choice for mitigating signal deterioration (I know, I know, 100 meters). Run Cat6 in your shop as needed though.

What is required and how much would a fiber set up be to run 200' of underground cable?

Thanks, Steve

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[DSMR]

What is required and how much would a fiber set up be to run 200' of underground cable?

Thanks, Steve

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Steve,

If I were in your situation I would use something like this: https://www.discount-low-voltage.co...r/6-strand-Singlemode-Armored-006EUC-T4101D20

So this is direct burial at around $0.50/ft. They will also pre-terminate both ends (this saves a bunch of money). Maybe give them a call and I bet they can hook you up with what you need.

 

[mike93lx]

Steve,

If I were in your situation I would use something like this: https://www.discount-low-voltage.co...r/6-strand-Singlemode-Armored-006EUC-T4101D20

So this is direct burial at around $0.50/ft. They will also pre-terminate both ends (this saves a bunch of money). Maybe give them a call and I bet they can hook you up with what you need.

Wow, cheaper than i thought. What equipment is needed on each end?

 

[DSMR]

Wow, cheaper than i thought. What equipment is needed on each end?

It would depend on the setup, but a fiber optic switch on both ends should be sufficient.

 

[HIG]

Summer is over here in Central NY (at least in my opinion), time to get back to work on the garage.

This is what’s I’ve decided on. I am running 2” PVC conduit through the basement of my house, of course my main service entrance is the farthest from my garage. I am going to install a Homeline 150 amp breaker ($95.00) in my main panel to feed the garage and will be running 4/0, 4/0, 4/0, 2/0 AL wire approximately 250 feet to the garage. I plan on using 4 individual strands of USE-2 cable. I will be installing a Homeline 200 amp – 40 circuit panel in the garage.

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My questions:

Do I want to add a subfeed panel in my basement before it goes outside to head over to the garage? I won’t say I need a subfeed in that corner, but you never know. Would I need to install a breaker in that subfeed panel before continuing on to the garage, can I just add lugs to the buss bars in the panel or are there pass through panels? This would be protected by the 150 amp breaker in my main panel, correct?

If needed can you spice aluminum cable or is this not recommended for corrosion?

Is there any problems using a 200 Amp panel in my garage? I realize the main breaker would not be proctecting the panel but rather the 150 amp breaker in my main box.

I plan on running fiber optic cable through the same conduit as the subfeed wire, this will not be an issure with fiber optics, correct?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!
Thanks, Steve

 

[mike93lx]

Main breaker size in the garage doesn't matter.

On the additional sub, I would keep it separate, personally, if you don't have any expected need. More connections, more cost, etc. If you ever need a sub, add one at that point

 

[mm08822]

Summer is over here in Central NY (at least in my opinion), time to get back to work on the garage.

This is what’s I’ve decided on. I am running 2” PVC conduit through the basement of my house, of course my main service entrance is the farthest from my garage. I am going to install a Homeline 150 amp breaker ($95.00) in my main panel to feed the garage and will be running 4/0, 4/0, 4/0, 2/0 AL wire approximately 250 feet to the garage. I plan on using 4 individual strands of USE-2 cable. I will be installing a Homeline 200 amp – 40 circuit panel in the garage.

My questions:

Do I want to add a subfeed panel in my basement before it goes outside to head over to the garage? I won’t say I need a subfeed in that corner, but you never know. Would I need to install a breaker in that subfeed panel before continuing on to the garage, can I just add lugs to the buss bars in the panel or are there pass through panels? This would be protected by the 150 amp breaker in my main panel, correct?

If needed can you spice aluminum cable or is this not recommended for corrosion?

Is there any problems using a 200 Amp panel in my garage? I realize the main breaker would not be proctecting the panel but rather the 150 amp breaker in my main box.

I plan on running fiber optic cable through the same conduit as the subfeed wire, this will not be an issure with fiber optics, correct?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!
Thanks, Steve

You will not be able to use the 150A cb in your main panel. Largest is 125A for branch circuits.

Still 125A is plenty. Do you even need that? 4/0 at that distance and assuming you ever reach that load will give 3% which is good.

USE is a twisted bundle of 4 conductors (in your example) not single conductors.

At that distance, I would used xhhw as they will pull so much easier - individual conductors and not twisted.

As for the fiber optic in the same conduit, I've never though of that. Since it is not a current carrying conductor it wouldn't impact the other conductor's ampacity. It does need to be considered in the fill however (albeit small).
I would worry about it getting damaged. Others can speak to that as I haven't used fiber yet.

How about just dropping another conduit for low voltage lines?

I wouldn't bother the garage feeder with the basement sub-panel complication. As Mike said, at it later if you ever need it.

 

[HIG]

Main breaker size in the garage doesn't matter.

On the additional sub, I would keep it separate, personally, if you don't have any expected need. More connections, more cost, etc. If you ever need a sub, add one at that point

Thank you, very good advice. I guess one benefit of an addition panel would be I wouldn't have to pull the whole length of cable at once but that does not justify the additional cost.

Thanks again, Steve

 

[HIG]

You will not be able to use the 150A cb in your main panel. Largest is 125A for branch circuits.

So even though I can buy a 150 amp breaker, code would not allow it for a branch circuit (sub feed)?

Still 125A is plenty. Do you even need that? 4/0 at that distance and assuming you ever reach that load will give 3% which is good.

I do believe that over 100 amps draw would be excessive for my workshop but I do hope to do more welding and automotive work as I have time (hopefully retirement), a large welder and air compressor could add up fast.

"4/0 at that distance and assuming you ever reach that load will give 3%", could you explain this?

At that distance, I would used xhhw as they will pull so much easier - individual conductors and not twisted.

Thank you, I called a local electrical supply store that I though I had a quote from before and found they sell 4/0 AL xhhw for $0.70' and 2/0 for $0.50 so I'd be looking at $2.60 a foot for the 3 - 4/0 and 1 - 2/0 conductors plus the price of the 2" conduit!!!

As for the fiber optic in the same conduit, I've never though of that. Since it is not a current carrying conductor it wouldn't impact the other conductor's ampacity. It does need to be considered in the fill however (albeit small).
I would worry about it getting damaged. Others can speak to that as I haven't used fiber yet.

How about just dropping another conduit for low voltage lines?

That's true, I could bury a 1/2" or 3/4" conduit as far away from the 2" conduit and run cat 6 in that one, if I have an issue with interference I could always pull the fiber optics.

Thanks for the advice everyone!!!

 

[mm08822]

So even though I can buy a 150 amp breaker, code would not allow it for a branch circuit (sub feed)?

That size cb will not fit in your panel. You have probably found one that is used for the main. Post the cat#.


I do believe that over 100 amps draw would be excessive for my workshop but I do hope to do more welding and automotive work as I have time (hopefully retirement), a large welder and air compressor could add up fast.

"4/0 at that distance and assuming you ever reach that load will give 3%", could you explain this?

Woops....I missed a few words there..........4/0 at a distance of 250' with a 125a actual load will provide a small and very acceptable voltage drop - 3%. Less load even further reduces the voltage drop. So 4/0 is a good choice.



Thank you, I called a local electrical supply store that I though I had a quote from before and found they sell 4/0 AL xhhw for $0.70' and 2/0 for $0.50 so I'd be looking at $2.60 a foot for the 3 - 4/0 and 1 - 2/0 conductors plus the price of the 2" conduit!!!

You could reduce the neutral to 2/0. Ground wire could probably reduce to ~#1. I need to verify actual size.


That's true, I could bury a 1/2" or 3/4" conduit as far away from the 2" conduit and run cat 6 in that one, if I have an issue with interference I could always pull the fiber optics.

Thanks for the advice everyone!!!

No, do not use 1/2"!!. I would use 1" for that distance.

 

[HIG]

That size cb will not fit in your panel. You have probably found one that is used for the main. Post the cat#.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000E20DBA/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Thanks, Steve

 

[mm08822]

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000E20DBA/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Thanks, Steve

NG. Read the first bullet point in the product description.

 

[HIG]

I can use some advice:

I will be running ½” emt conduit to feed 2 - 20 amp circuits, one for outlets and one for fluorescent lights in my attic room. Can I combine my neutrals and gounds? If I’m using 12ga THHN what size ground can I use? I do know if I’m using GFCI outlets then it would sense the difference between the hot and neutral and trip the GFCI.

Any advice will be appreciated.

Thanks, Steve

 

[teamextreme]

If you're running EMT you don't need a ground. If you insist on pulling one, you need 12awg. You only need one ground per conduit run. You can also combine neutrals and create a MWBC, but caution needs to be used on how you layout the circuit to avoid GFCI issues. You could run 3 wires (H,H,N) to a common point and place a j-box, then split off in 2 runs, one to the lights (H,N) and one to the first GFI (H,N). You just can't share the neutral downstream of the GFI.

 

[HIG]

If you're running EMT you don't need a ground. If you insist on pulling one, you need 12awg. You only need one ground per conduit run. You can also combine neutrals and create a MWBC, but caution needs to be used on how you layout the circuit to avoid GFCI issues. You could run 3 wires (H,H,N) to a common point and place a j-box, then split off in 2 runs, one to the lights (H,N) and one to the first GFI (H,N). You just can't share the neutral downstream of the GFI.

Thank you for the information!!!

I will pull a ground just in case I have a loose connection in the EMT, do I need to ground junction boxes (pull boxes) and boxes with switches or receptacles with green screws?

Thanks again, Steve

 

[HIG]

I haven't been very good at posting updates, I really didn't work on the workshop much during the summer.

This fall I had the trench dug and laid the 2" and 1" pvc conduit.

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I have power and internet in the shop!! I ran unshielded Cat 6 wire.

View media item 98277
I have lights, I have them controlled by 2 switches, 1 turns on rows 1,3 & 5 the other, 2 & 4.

View media item 98275
I also installed a 100,000 BTU propane heater.

View media item 98276
Steve

 

[1Garageman]

That looks really good! Now you just need a fridge, TV, and your set!

 

[teamextreme]

Looking good!

 

[btdobie]

Looks really nice. Since you are feeding the power from below you may want to consider mounting the panel upside-down so that you have less service wire in the box. Most panels are approved for mounting this way. Also make sure you insulated behind your panel or you will get condensation inside in the winter; I have personally seen this be an issue.

Edit: nevermind I missed the post where you already had it mounted. Didn't realize there were more pages.