3D Printer?

[Badasssapper67]

Anyone have guidance on any style or brand of 3D printers for shop use? I know nothing about them but I have realized if I had one I could "print" up some plastic parts and what nots for everyday use and mechanical stuff.

Eventually I'd like to move up to printing intake manifold spacers out of plastic and then onward to intake manifolds for hot rods. My thinking is custom ideas, guys who have something special in mind where an off the shelf unit isn't the best.

That's just the beginning of what I could do, if I could get it all started. I don't mind spending up to five hundred on a model that'll print something 8x8x8 but would prefer at least 10x10c10. It'll be in the shop so I'll spend more if necessary to get a robust model over a flimsy one that does more.
I just need something to get me started so I can figure out if this will work. I know Ford makes intakes out of plastic so I know it can be done.

If you have any experience and any opinions on brands that are good or features to look for let me know.

 

[Badasssapper67]

Just so you know the intake manifold dimensions are a minimum of 23"x16"x10"

 

[kythri]

I really don't think that a 3D-printed intake is a good idea.

The Ford intake is likely manufactured with an injection-molding process, which results in a product that I'd imagine is far stronger than anything a fused-deposition or extrusion-deposition process is going to give you.

Knock yourself out if you want to play with it, but I don't think that 3D-printing (as it sits today) is a viable manufacturing tool, more a prototyping - especially at the cost level you're looking to get into.

 

[turfgnome]

I own a 3d printer that I use for keychains and other display items. I would never use one to produce a part used in an engine. It is great for prototyping or to make something for casting but the prints are not strong enough for anything critical, and not all of them would even be air tight.

 

[zx2slow]

It is great for prototyping or to make something for casting but the prints are not strong enough for anything critical, and not all of them would even be air tight.

This. Its not strong enough for much, proto-pasta is coming out with some interesting filament but nothing out there currently will work as a intake manifold.

I started with a printbot kit, you can mess around and print parts for a bigger printer. Really interested in the DIY CNC projects now.

 

[twertsy]

I have a big Makerbot Z18 (11.8 L x 12.0 W x 18.0 H IN printable) if you want to send me a file or two for testing your stuff.........just supply the raw material.

EDIT: Plus 1 on the comments about strength above. If I had it to do over again, I'd have waited for the new carbon fiber printers.

 

[astroracer]

Anyone have guidance on any style or brand of 3D printers for shop use? I know nothing about them but I have realized if I had one I could "print" up some plastic parts and what nots for everyday use and mechanical stuff.

Yup, do some more research. Like the others have said, 3D printing has it's place and uses, but a cheap desktop unit is NOT going to get you there.
Can I ask what modeling software you are using? I use NX and have had a few parts 3D printed by Shapeways. These are model car related though so the strength is not an issue.
Mark

 

[cevans7]

We've used Rhino at the University to develop some mathematical models and whatnot. I'm no expert in 3D printing, but from what I have heard, you can certainly use 3D printers to make production-quality parts with good structural components, but not with anything in the price rang you are looking at. I believe Rolls-Royce has even started making certain parts for jet engines using 3D printing, so it is certainly a viable manufacturing process. But almost certainly only at high-dollar commercial grade equipment.

In any event, I would make sure to check the specifications for the plastics used in whatever printer you are looking at. I'm sure some engineer somewhere has come up with enough details on the material for you to decide if it should work in an engine compartment (I doubt so), but it might take a good bit of reading.

 

[zx2slow]

If I had it to do over again, I'd have waited for the new carbon fiber printers.

Not sure how forg3d did the CF layers, they only seem to of made a handful of parts. The ABS filament with CF strands in it seem like a great way to kill heads while providing marginal at best increases in strength.

 

[justanengineer]

A former employer of mine used a variety of RP methods for developing automotive intakes and other ducting. The main use was for developing smaller sectional models for flow bench validation, but occasionally they produced an entire intake for engine testing. We didnt use low end machines or materials however, and also coated many of them with an epoxy afterward for additional strength, heat resistance, and to smooth any gaps/porosities/improve surface finish. Since then technology has moved on however and the RP machines were replaced with more computer simulation and machinable sandcasting methods which means less iterative testing and more to the final prototype.

As mentioned above, the lil machines are cheap and fun to play around with, but dont get your hopes up for basing any sort of a home business around them. Theyre kinda like the DIY cnc retrofits, they need quite a bit of futzing to set up and regular attention after.

 

[AndeiH]

if i read his post correctly he doesn't want to 3d print an entire intake manifold, just a spacer for it.

most small 3d printers i've seen have a print area less than 10" though.

 

[jgorm]

The biggest obstacle stopping me from getting a 3d printer is my cad design skills. I took a 40hr course on solid works, but there is no way I could model an intake in any resonable amount of time. Even then, I wouldn't even think to print an intake with one of these printers.

 

[kythri]

if i read his post correctly he doesn't want to 3d print an entire intake manifold, just a spacer for it.

most small 3d printers i've seen have a print area less than 10" though.

Still wouldn't do it.

The "home" or "enthusiast" 3D-printers are for modeling/prototyping.

I won't outright say that it could never work, but it's just not a good idea. These units (at least the smaller ones) just don't build "strong" parts.

 

[rsanter]

The big automaker will 3d print intake manifolds for testing. They use the process with the liquid that solidifies with a laser.
Those machines are very expensive and the cost to print out of them is a bit pricy as well.
With all that they still use the stuff for fit and dyno testing only.

Now, I have seen where guys are using the smaller 3d printers and they are making larger things by printing them up in sections and gluing the sections together, they then cover the part with bondo or epoxy and sand to a smooth finish.
They they use that as a pattern to make a casting from.
If that's is how you will use it then you are on the right track

Bob

 

[Badasssapper67]

This. Its not strong enough for much, proto-pasta is coming out with some interesting filament but nothing out there currently will work as a intake manifold.

I started with a printbot kit, you can mess around and print parts for a bigger printer. Really interested in the DIY CNC projects now.

Please tell me more. Explain what that means please.

 

[zx2slow]

Proto-pasta has filament with CF fibers embedded in it, but it wont do anything for your application.

Mount a router, plasma cutter, or laser to where the print head goes and you can cut and engrave other materials.

 

[Badasssapper67]

Thanks for all the advice! I've been keeping an eye on this and the tech is jumping leaps and bounds and I can see this is where the future is going to be. I believe that inside of 50 years we wont buy a cam shaft from Crane or Isky, we'll buy the program over the net and it'll be sent to our printer and print out a cam.
Right now metal powder printers are up to 99.5% dense. As mentioned earlier, Boeing is printing parts that cant be made otherwise. they're printing things out of aluminum and titanium with oil passages zigging this way and that and other oddities in one piece that would require the part to be in three or four pieces and joined together if made by traditional machining.
So my plan is, I know jack diddly squat about this tech. Nada, zilcho, so I want to get a ground floor tool that offers the best potential for upgrading then get/make a machine to make intake spacers, trick wire holders, multi colored plastic looms and such for friends or for niche markets like 50's hemi guys or flathead guys. Enough to get known and then move on to intakes and such, hell by then they could be made out of aluminum if the price keeps going down.
Im thinking of guys that put VW W8's in smart cars and such, total custom stuff.
Any more help and info would be awesome. Like what programs, "language" do machines use that engineers program. what machines do you use/prefer.

Thanks guys

 

[Vegaman_Dan]

3D printers use low melt thermal plastics to be injected through the nozzle. You can indeed make prototype parts to test ideas out, but they will never be parts used for an engine that is running. Well, not longer than a few minutes before they melt.

Something that hasn't been addressed is that 3D printing is *SLOW*. A simple object the size of a golf ball is easily 3-4 hours, and that's if it is hollow. If it's solid, look for half a day. If you want to do an intake manifold, it is indeed possible. You may have a day or two of build time before it's done.

Keep in mind that failure rates are high. If you print something complex that is taking 6 hours to complete, it may glitch at hour 5 and you've just lost all that time due to a filament breaking, a bit of debris, or any other artifact. Now you have to start over.

The output is made of lines, so your finished product will have hundreds of horizontal ridges. On the outside of your part you can remove them by sanding and finishing. If this is on the inside of your manifold, it may affect the air flow pattern.

Is it worth it? For me, I hope to get one to screw around with. I would probably use it to fabricate a bracket, then make a mold and cast copies in polyurethane resin.

 

[zx2slow]

Most home/DIY printers are for the nerd and tech savvy crowd. Started and really didn't care about 3D printing, just wanted something to build with my nerd herd friends.

There are websites out there with templates and will print things or get you in touch with a network of people who will print you stuff.

 

[Davo3]

3D printing is slow, but it is NOT just thermoplastics. There are multiple technologies that are lumped together under the umbrella of 3D printing, and they each offer something different.

Check the video in my signature. Hyrel printers (where I work) print in all the cool thermoplastics, as well as ceramics, metal clays, silicones, resins, biogels, etc., and also have laser and drilling attachments.

 

[67CarGuy]

Definitely interested in 3D printing as well, but I'm also in the Wait and See crowd. I do like the idea of the "home factory," where I can just download a set of plans and print up whatever the hell I'm willing to pay for (I'll take a Duesenberg, a '67 Mustang fastback, and a '32 Ford roadster to start, please). But I don't see that happening for quite some time (decades). In the meantime, let's go play in the garage!

 

[WhiffySpark]

3D printing is slow, but it is NOT just thermoplastics. There are multiple technologies that are lumped together under the umbrella of 3D printing, and they each offer something different.

Check the video in my signature. Hyrel printers (where I work) print in all the cool thermoplastics, as well as ceramics, metal clays, silicones, resins, biogels, etc., and also have laser and drilling attachments.

You own the company don't you...

I want a hyrel its just out of reach right now

 

[johnt2k7]

Iv been on the fence about 3d printers as well, the ability to make and test fit a custom or discontinued part is amazing. Then you could either have it machined or Cast after fitment is verified

Look into Lost PLA Casting. basically you print the part, then mold it with plaster or sand. Once it cures you turn it upside down and Melt the 3D Printed Part out. Then Cast with Aluminum. Look on Youtube their are a bunch of videos of people doing this in their own back yards.

And their are professional shops that will do low numbers casting's of Aluminum,Steel,Stainless,Ect.... AMS did/does this with their Exhaust Manifolds. Im sure they arent doing it on a Ultimaker or Hobbyist FDM Printer but same principle.

blog.amsperformance.com/2010/01/22

 

[Fugio]

Why not get a laser cutter for metal? We have an Epilog laser for cutting just about everything. It's AMAZING!

What you want is a C02 laser. They can cut through a half inch of steel with 1200dpi precision.

 

[Davo3]

You own the company don't you...

No, but I am employee number one.

 

[gungatim]

Iv been on the fence about 3d printers as well, the ability to make and test fit a custom or discontinued part is amazing. Then you could either have it machined or Cast after fitment is verified

Look into Lost PLA Casting. basically you print the part, then mold it with plaster or sand. Once it cures you turn it upside down and Melt the 3D Printed Part out. Then Cast with Aluminum. Look on Youtube their are a bunch of videos of people doing this in their own back yards.

And their are professional shops that will do low numbers casting's of Aluminum,Steel,Stainless,Ect.... AMS did/does this with their Exhaust Manifolds. Im sure they arent doing it on a Ultimaker or Hobbyist FDM Printer but same principle.

blog.amsperformance.com/2010/01/22

This. much cheaper ways to make parts than 3D printing. Guy on another site is making AR-15 lower receivers out of liquid plastic casting. google "Fruity-ghost"...

 

[engineer2]

Keep in mind underhood parts need to withstand at least 250°F, assuming the part is not near the exhaust system. You would have to look at printing with Nylon 6 or glass-filled polypropylene. This is possible on high-end printers.