3HP 3 Phase dust collector vs 2HP Single Phase

[pr3dict]

Im looking at upgrading my dust collection. I currently use a shop vac w/ a dust deputy but it fills up so damn fast and also doesnt get a lot of the good good from he bigger machines.

So my options that I'm looking at are:

1. a USED 2019 MFG Powermatic PM1900TX-CK3
   1. https://www.ohiopowertool.com/brand...lters-and-dust-collection/powermatic-1792071k
   2. 3HP biggggg CFM but also BIG unit
   3. ~ $950

It's a 3 phase unit which means I need to grab a VFD Single phase to Three Phase converter for like $200

Orrrrrrrr

2. A Grizzly G1029Z2P 2 HP Dust Collector with Aluminum Impeller - Polar Bear Series

Grizzly G1029Z2P - 2 HP Dust Collector with Aluminum Impeller - Polar Bear Series - Grizzly Industrial, Inc.

<h1>G1029Z2P 2 HP Dust Collector with Aluminum Impeller</h1> <h2>Rid your shop of fine dust particles.</h2> <p>This 2 HP Dust Collector with Aluminum Impeller is designed to capture dust and wood chips from woodworking machines, such as table saws, jointers and planers.</p> <p>The air drawn in...

www.grizzly.com

Single phase so no converter needed.
$679


The shop is 24x27 10ft ceilings.
Thoughts?

 

[KenC]

I have an older version of the Grizzly. Works well. The 3ph is simpler, no capacitors or centrifugal switch in the motor to fail, but offset that with the converter complexity.

Mine does what I need so I'd have a hard time justifying the added cost.

 

[PoorUB]

I am having a problem with the specs on the Powermatic. for instance it looks identical to this Grizzly,

https://www.grizzly.com/products/shop-fox-3-hp-dust-collector/w1687

Which has crazy specs on air flow. The 2HP Grizzly I suspect the specs are a bit inflated too.
Myself, If I have to buy one, IMO the Powermatic is twice the unit compared to the 2 HP Grizzly. More HP, more filtration area. Potential to run it off more machines at one time. The downside if do you have the room for it?

That 2 HP Grizzly is a one or two machine collector. If you want to run a bunch of permanent duct the Powermatic will blow, (****?) it away.

I have the Harbor Freight one similar to the 2 HP Grizzly, but 1-1/2 HP and it is a one machine at a time collector. I suspect the Grizz is a bit better than mine.

 

[PCustoms]

Im looking at upgrading my dust collection. I currently use a shop vac w/ a dust deputy but it fills up so damn fast and also doesnt get a lot of the good good from he bigger machines.

So my options that I'm looking at are:

1. a USED 2019 MFG Powermatic PM1900TX-CK3
   1. https://www.ohiopowertool.com/brand...lters-and-dust-collection/powermatic-1792071k
   2. 3HP biggggg CFM but also BIG unit
   3. ~ $950

It's a 3 phase unit which means I need to grab a VFD Single phase to Three Phase converter for like $200

Orrrrrrrr

2. A Grizzly G1029Z2P 2 HP Dust Collector with Aluminum Impeller - Polar Bear Series

Grizzly G1029Z2P - 2 HP Dust Collector with Aluminum Impeller - Polar Bear Series - Grizzly Industrial, Inc.

<h1>G1029Z2P 2 HP Dust Collector with Aluminum Impeller</h1> <h2>Rid your shop of fine dust particles.</h2> <p>This 2 HP Dust Collector with Aluminum Impeller is designed to capture dust and wood chips from woodworking machines, such as table saws, jointers and planers.</p> <p>The air drawn in...

www.grizzly.com

Single phase so no converter needed.
$679


The shop is 24x27 10ft ceilings.
Thoughts?

What equipment will you tie in?

What is your DC piping like? Where are your valves?

 

[pr3dict]

I am having a problem with the specs on the Powermatic. for instance it looks identical to this Grizzly,

https://www.grizzly.com/products/shop-fox-3-hp-dust-collector/w1687

Which has crazy specs on air flow. The 2HP Grizzly I suspect the specs are a bit inflated too.
Myself, If I have to buy one, IMO the Powermatic is twice the unit compared to the 2 HP Grizzly. More HP, more filtration area. Potential to run it off more machines at one time. The downside if do you have the room for it?

That 2 HP Grizzly is a one or two machine collector. If you want to run a bunch of permanent duct the Powermatic will blow, (****?) it away.

I have the Harbor Freight one similar to the 2 HP Grizzly, but 1-1/2 HP and it is a one machine at a time collector. I suspect the Grizz is a bit better than mine.

Yeah Im sick of tripping over the 4" hose and having to move it between each machine over and over again. Im looking to do some permanent fixing.

I was actually looking at the single phase https://www.grizzly.com/products/gr...h-aluminum-impeller-polar-bear-series/g0562zp as an alternative to the used powermatic. Grizzly has like 50 different dust collectors on their website for all different prices. Its cray cray.

What equipment will you tie in?

What is your DC piping like? Where are your valves?

I have:

• A run of the mill DW745 table saw thats built into an outfeed table.
• 13" Planer
• 8" Jointer
• 12" Miter Saw
• Router table
• Anddddddddddddd all the small tools I figure I'll keep using the Dust deputy + Shop vac on wheels.

As for piping. Im just using a 4" expandable from rockler that connects to the various tools. The table saw has about 8ft of 2" hose permanetly fixed under the table that converst to a 4" quick connect though I'm fairly confident no dust gets sucked up from that table saw lol.

 

[PoorUB]

Grizzly has like 50 different dust collectors on their website for all different prices. Its cray cray.

I get you there! Look on Grizzly and filter out only the 3 HP models, there is four of them. Granted different filters and the like, but why is the "South Bend" 3 hp $1700 and 1400 CFM and the similar Grizzly 3 HP $925 and 2300 CFM. The numbers don't add up! From the pictures it looks like they all share the same mechanicals.

(I hate that Grizzly apparently bought the rights to use the South Bend logo.)

 

[Toolfool]

Here's some info if you'd like to learn what is actually effective 'dust' collection as opposed to chip collection.

Dust Collection Research - Home

This site is all about dust collection and protection. It shares the risks from fine dust exposure, how to measure your risks and how to effectively protect yourself and those close to you from airborne dust hazards. Fine dust is so extensively studied that researchers call it PM short for...

billpentz.com

 

[pr3dict]

Here's some info if you'd like to learn what is actually effective 'dust' collection as opposed to chip collection.

Dust Collection Research - Home

This site is all about dust collection and protection. It shares the risks from fine dust exposure, how to measure your risks and how to effectively protect yourself and those close to you from airborne dust hazards. Fine dust is so extensively studied that researchers call it PM short for...

billpentz.com

I've read that website before, thank you. Unfortunately, my take away was that hobbyists shouldnt be woodworking in small shops as we can never create a good enough system that will keep us healthy. the TLDR is that everything in a woodshop can and will kill you.

 

[Firebrick43]

I've read that website before, thank you. Unfortunately, my take away was that hobbyists shouldnt be woodworking in small shops as we can never create a good enough system that will keep us healthy. the TLDR is that everything in a woodshop can and will kill you.

Um, Section C, bottom line is exact opposite of your "take"?

 

[pr3dict]

Um, Section C, bottom line is exact opposite of your "take"?

I mean yeah he says that but it contradicts the entire best practices....

The best protection is to wear a good properly fit NIOSH approved respirator mask with dual HEPA quality cartridges and work outside or with our main doors open a bit and a strong fan blowing out a side door or window to create a good airflow through our shops to keep the fine dust from building.

Not trying to start an argument but like the entire section on dust collection basically says you need to set it up like a commercial system that vents to the outside for it to be effective and safe. And wear a mask, always no matter what you do.

 

[Firebrick43]

I mean yeah he says that but it contradicts the entire best practices....



Not trying to start an argument but like the entire section on dust collection basically says you need to set it up like a commercial system that vents to the outside for it to be effective and safe. And wear a mask, always no matter what you do.

And that would be best practices, yes. And no matter the system, yes you should wear a respirator, not a mask.

And to much of any fine particles in your lungs will eventually harm your health or even kill you, yes. That is proven by observation going back into the 1850's when occupational health started. Coal miners, grain elevator workers, mill workers, plating polishers, and yes woodworkers have all proven this with their lives.

So that being said, Can you not eject dust outside?. If not, you have listed two chip collectors with canister filters, they are 100's time better than the slightly cheaper model with just the cloth back filters and have better cfm to boot as the bag style clog fast. Get the larger 3 hp model so you can actually put a cyclone on it and your system might not be "best practice" but its certainly going to perform well and in conjunction with a respirator its going to be safe.

 

[pr3dict]

So that being said, Can you not eject dust outside?. If not, you have listed two chip collectors with canister filters, they are 100's time better than the slightly cheaper model with just the cloth back filters and have better cfm to boot as the bag style clog fast. Get the larger 3 hp model so you can actually put a cyclone on it and your system might not be "best practice" but its certainly going to perform well and in conjunction with a respirator its going to be safe.

^^^^ This is what I'm looking for, thank you.

I could technically cut a hole in my garage and eject the air outside but then I'd be losing all the conditioned air thats inside and would rather not do that. Also I've proven over the years that I'm not the best at waterproofing so I'd rather skip that...

Its kinda terrible that I don't wear a respirator/mask as an adult. Growing up I worked in the family business sanding floors throughout the country and none of the workers wore a mask (except for this one guy but it was so clogged I dont even know how effective it was). Then I was a firefighter for ~10 years and while wearing a SCBA was told to us younger guys, the salty dogs only did in an actual fire but never for overhaul. Now, I don't know, I should and it probably will end up killing me by not doing it but thats why I'm trying to upgrade the other air filtration.

I do also have one of those recirculating air filtration systems hanging from the ceiling... I guess anything is better then nothing.

Thanks for the suggestion on the 3hp model. Let me do some digging on cycloning it out.

 

[Renegade1LI]

Look at the HF 2 hp, a lot of nice systems have been built off this unit, tons of utube info. I used it myself with a cyclone and commercial filter, hard piped to all equipment, works very well.

 

[Firebrick43]

Look at the HF 2 hp, a lot of nice systems have been built off this unit, tons of utube info. I used it myself with a cyclone and commercial filter, hard piped to all equipment, works very well.

Problem with the HF is the lack of HP. Like a lot of Big box store items with electric motor last they lie about the HP. They state it’s a 20 amp motor and by the laws of physics, if it was an efficient design it could only put out 1.5hp and I doubt it’s even that efficient and some are running them ok on 15 amp circuits. Look up a single phase full load amp table if you don’t believe me.

I will still work ok as a chip collector but it doesn’t have enough cfm due to lack of HP (their cfm numbers and micron ratings are an utter lie as well) but fine dust will escape.

The “best” standard is to have 5 hp with a cyclone to have enough cfm to ensure all most all dust is caught even with the decrease of cfm with the cyclone. That is why I recommended the 3 hp model (that’s a truthful rating) as while it’s not “best“ standards it gets in the “pretty good” range of collecting fine dust and definitely has over twice the hp as the HF model.

Also note, most of the grizzly dust collectors have aluminum impellers. You don't want that. A small chunk of wood(or god forbid a coin/something metal) gets sucked up it can fracture the blades and ruin/unbalance the impeller. This is not an issue (other than the noise) with a steel impeller.

 

[PoorUB]

Look at the HF 2 hp, a lot of nice systems have been built off this unit, tons of utube info. I used it myself with a cyclone and commercial filter, hard piped to all equipment, works very well.

Keep in mind that HF unit is rated a bit optimistically. It is not 2 HP, more like 1-1/2 HP. There is no way you will get 2 HP out of 115 volts and 15 amps. and guys have done testing and it doesn't get close to the advertised CFM. I have one and for the money it works, but I wouldn't duct a whole shop with it. Yes, I know guys have done it. Most have done like you and stripped it for parts, bought cyclones and re-engineered the unit.

 

[kaymccampbell]

I have a 2 hp Reliant, runs on 220, modified with a homemade cyclone and a pair of huge Wynn filters. It's fed by 4" PVC, with valves at the different machines. Other than only being able to use one machine at a time, it's dandy. Honestly, if you can use two machines at once, you've got other problems.

At the NWA, we've got a 5hp Clear Vue CV1800. It's dandy, too, but not a whole lot more effective than my 2hp. You can run 2 or 3 machines at once with it, but then there's enough bodies to pull that off.
We also have a couple of the 110 HF units. They've gotta be right up close to be effective. Any length of hose and they're screwed.

Oh, about hose. The less the better. You want hard, smooth piping all the way, then minimal hose to the machine. The reason is that the corrugations create turbulence, and effectively reduce the diameter of the hose. The deeper the corrugations, the smaller your hose becomes. One of those 4" nifty clicky, stays in place, corrugated hoses has an effective diameter of under 2", due to turbulence. The better clear **** with the wire in it, is a little better, maybe just over 2". For the time you must have hose, they do make more rigid 4" hose that has an effectively smooth inside. It's what I use with large smooth rigid elbows, to keep the wind moving.
If you insist on long runs of heavily corrugated hose, then you'll need the 3 or 5hp machine to keep up.

And filters. Forget the bag. They beyond ****. You want to slow down the air velocity to a crawl. So particles stick and don't get forced through your media by high velocity. Surface area does that. The kind you get with 400 sqft of filter paper accordioned up into a giant air filter or two.

 

[Renegade1LI]

Keep in mind that HF unit is rated a bit optimistically. It is not 2 HP, more like 1-1/2 HP. There is no way you will get 2 HP out of 115 volts and 15 amps. and guys have done testing and it doesn't get close to the advertised CFM. I have one and for the money it works, but I wouldn't duct a whole shop with it. Yes, I know guys have done it. Most have done like you and stripped it for parts, bought cyclones and re-engineered the unit.

I've been using it for almost 2 years, added a remote start and it works great. In a single person shop it's more than enough and the whole set up was under 1k.

 

[cretedog]

I have a 30 x 34 shop with similar machines to yours. Put 4" pvc with stub ups under the floor before pouring and built a 'closet' for the dust collector for noise control. Started with a 120v unit I already had- gave that away- too small and too noisy. Now have a Jet DC-1200C 230v unit. Works more than ok for my single user shop, but if I did more woodwork and had a larger closet I would upgrade to something like the unit linked below. Cold here in the winters- don't want to dump air outside the shop. More airflow, ease of dumping, single phase, fairly quiet... More $ than what you were looking at but would bring you more joy. Good points in the above posts about going with real filters and not bags, minimizing the use of corrugated hose, and having a wireless remote with a couple of fobs around the shop or on your belt loop..

2" is undersized for a table saw- or even most anything. My bandsaw came with a 2" outlet- I holesawed a 4" one on instead.

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200791233_200791233?cm_mmc=Google-pla&utm_source=Google_PLA&utm_medium=Power%20Tools%20%3E%20Dust%20Collection%20%2B%20Containment&utm_campaign=Jet&utm_content=551216&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIit33jZLq-wIV3Q-tBh3HMwKCEAQYBSABEgIP-_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

JMc

 

[Firebrick43]

I've been using it for almost 2 years, added a remote start and it works great. In a single person shop it's more than enough and the whole set up was under 1k.

What does your particle counter stay under when its running?

 

[matt_i]

Just make sure your VFD doesn't require a HP derating when running off a single phase input. It seems like an issue more common with older VFDs but you'll suffer in a dust collector if you can't maintain the HP needed. Like the motor won't maintain the synchronous 60hz nameplate speed and be dragged down.

 

[John McA]

There was an article about duct sizing from a mechanical engineering point of view that basically said the min. dia. should be 6in if possible, any less was grossly ineffective/inefficient. I will search and provide, eventually. This was some years ago. At the time we were down sizing a large military wood shop and installing individual collectors at each pair of machines. The shop didn't shrink. The number of users shrank. All of the tapered sheet metal ducts and exterior cyclone, 40 hp belt driven equipment were removed. And, all the central ****. I did manage to keep a floor sweep of which I recommend installing in any dust removal system.

After upgrading the knives in my planer and joiner to helical cutter-heads a remarkable change in the waste output happened. Chips instead of dust! Highly recommend.

Good luck with your shop.
John McA