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3M Bristle Discs

MrMark

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I just started using these today. I used it stripping a vise and it (the yellow) works great. Maybe better than the cup wire wheel.

Can you use these all the way down to the nub? Or, how do you know when it is time to throw it out and get a new one? I am assuming the bristles have abrasive impregnated in them over the whole length.

Is it normal for them to "throw" a few of the outer bristles when pushed?

What are some common uses of these for all of you?

Bristle-Discs-300.jpg
 
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G1GRANDEUR

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you are applying too much pressure when you use them.

the length become shorter each time, so you will know when to throw away.
 

stacerbob

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Excellent for aluminum heads, intakes etc because they don't wear the metal down. You are not supposed to use the scotch pad ones on motors but seems everyone does. You can use them way down short but I think the flex is what makes them work.
 
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MrMark

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Excellent for aluminum heads, intakes etc because they don't wear the metal down. You are not supposed to use the scotch pad ones on motors but seems everyone does. You can use them way down short but I think the flex is what makes them work.

That's exactly why I purchased these, but they seem to have many uses. Which one do you use on the alum heads? I have all three colors and I think white was for the heads?
 
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MrMark

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you are applying too much pressure when you use them.

the length become shorter each time, so you will know when to throw away.

Thanks, I'll make sure not a press too hard. The disc still seems usable with a few missing bristles.
 

larryq

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I've wanted to try these, but the expense has always put me off. Are these usable with a 3/8" corded drill with the appropriate roloc attachment, or really for air use only?
 

Dan in Pasadena

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Anyone know how these compare for speed in stripping light rust, old paint, etc on a car frame? I mean, compared to a straight, knotted, or cup style wire wheel on an angle grinder?
 

skyking

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Very interesting .I have never seen one. Where do you get them and how much are they . What all can you do with them.
 

Roots

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I've been ordering these for years for my crews. They're simply phenomenal and a huge time saver for many jobs.

They will throw bristles if you apply to much pressure, they can hurt too :(

I use them till they're worn down to far to be useful, personal judgement call. Depending on the job they can last a long time to not so much.

I've wanted to try these, but the expense has always put me off. Are these usable with a 3/8" corded drill with the appropriate roloc attachment, or really for air use only?

Yeah, a lot of people are put off by the price, they're not cheap even when bought in bulk. While I've never tried to use one with a drill we've used them almost exclusively with electric 4-5" angle grinders.

Very interesting .I have never seen one. Where do you get them and how much are they.

Any industrial supply house should be able to get them in. They tend to be a bit too pricey for places like Home Depot and such to carry them.

Grainger

Amazon
 

NC-Fordguy

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Anyone know how these compare for speed in stripping light rust, old paint, etc on a car frame? I mean, compared to a straight, knotted, or cup style wire wheel on an angle grinder?

They both have their place. The 3m discs work well on sheet metal as well as a frame.

I use them with a die grinder so a 220v air compressor is almost a must if you're doing alot of work
 

Fedwrench

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You can get them at tooltopia and other 3m dealers. Shop around though as there's a wide price spread on them.

They're just plastic bristles, no special chemicals or abrasive blended in. White is great for aluminum. Green is great for steel.

They can be just as harmful to the inside of an engine as the scotchbrite cookies although the plastic dust might not be as abrasive as scotchbrite material. there's no safe abrasive mixed with engine oil.

Light pressure works best. You'll know when it's time for a new disc as the nubbs don't work well compare to a longer bristle.
 

wafrederick

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The reason why these discs are not to be used on engine parts is the pieces can get in the oil which the oil filter can't trap them causing premature engine failure.The little pieces get trapped in the bearings.Jasper highly does not recomend them.Same with the scotch brite pads
 

Fedwrench

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The reason why these discs are not to be used on engine parts is the pieces can get in the oil which the oil filter can't trap them causing premature engine failure.The little pieces get trapped in the bearings.Jasper highly does not recomend them.Same with the scotch brite pads

You're absolutely correct. When GM and Ford issued TSBs about not using scotchbrite discs on engines, we switched to the bristle discs.:lol:
 

ZRX61

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Anyone know how these compare for speed in stripping light rust, old paint, etc on a car frame? I mean, compared to a straight, knotted, or cup style wire wheel on an angle grinder?

Rust will tear them up & for stripping paint the black 3M discs will strip an entire car in a morning (I did a '70 Ranchero in 3 hours). Can't think of the part # of the black discs.... anyone?
 

stacerbob

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I can supply them, Body shop supplies on Facebook. I also have the black 3m discs for rust and norton makes a great one that goes on 4 1/2" grinder and a large one for big buffer grinder
 
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machine_punk

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I get mine at a local car parts store (These 3M bristle disks and the 3M surface prep roloc disks, in 2" and 3"). I use them with a pneumatic air die grinder.

You will have a really hard time controlling these with a drill (ask me how I know). You will need a grinder of some sort.

The roloc adapter can either be generic ($5 each) or 3M ($20 each). The 3M is definitely built better, but I'm not sure it's 3- or 4-times as good as the generic ones (I've never had either a generic or 3M Roloc adapter fail on me).

M_P
 
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Dan in Pasadena

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Rust will tear them up & for stripping paint the black 3M discs will strip an entire car in a morning (I did a '70 Ranchero in 3 hours). Can't think of the part # of the black discs.... anyone?

Good to know. I'm working (slowly, right now) on a '55 Chevy big window truck and I need to pull the bed & thoroughly clean the rear portion of the frame/suspension/rearend for paint. I'll do the front frame suspension/etc later and then third, under the cab. I have an 80 gallon "Horror Fright" vertical compressor, I just haven't run 220v to it yet. I'm also in the middle of a garage reset:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=144618&highlight=gray+garage

But once this is done I will get back on the truck harder and of course I will be stripping decades of old paint and priming panel by panel. Hopefully tips like these discs will make it go a bit faster/better.
 

Lotek

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They're supposed to be excellent for removing gasket material; they don't leave abrasive particles to get in your engine.

Wrong, GM prohibits the use of these to clean up engine gasket surfaces for just that reason, tsb #00-06-01-012D, the bristles do have abrasive material in them, they can take off enough material to cause sealing problems, and they can spread the abrasive dust throughout the work area. Don't use them on any engine sealing surfaces, especially aluminum.

They have their uses, that ain't one of them.:thumbup:
 
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MrMark

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Wrong, GM prohibits the use of these to clean up engine gasket surfaces for just that reason, tsb #00-06-01-012D, the bristles have abrasive material in them, they can take off enough material to cause sealing problems, and they can spread the abrasive dust throughout the work area.

They have their uses, that ain't one of them.:thumbup:


hmmm.

I've seen those maroon cookies used on gaskets, and it made me shudder. I thought these would be OK. Good to know these don't cut it either for gaskets.

Are we stuck with a razor blade for the gaskets?
 

Lotek

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hmmm.

I've seen those maroon cookies used on gaskets, and it made me shudder. I thought these would be OK. Good to know these don't cut it either for gaskets.

Are we stuck with a razor blade for the gaskets?

Pretty much, don't sweat the surface discoloration, anything you can't feel with a fingernail isn't going to hurt anything.
 

OEXL16B

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Wrong, GM prohibits the use of these to clean up engine gasket surfaces for just that reason, tsb #00-06-01-012D, the bristles do have abrasive material in them, they can take off enough material to cause sealing problems, and they can spread the abrasive dust throughout the work area. Don't use them on any engine sealing surfaces, especially aluminum.

They have their uses, that ain't one of them.:thumbup:

Surface Conditioning Discs
General Motors Position On Use of Surface Conditioning Discs

The AERA Technical Committee offers the following information regarding the use of grinding discs as obtained from the General Motors Corporation. When cleaning engine gasket sealing surfaces, surface conditioning disks (typically constructed of woven fiber or molded bristles) which contain abrasives, such as a high amount of Aluminum Oxide, are NOT RECOMMENDED. The information contained in this bulletin supersedes any previously published GM service information regarding the use of surface conditioning disks and pertains to all current and previously manufactured engines.

The use of such surface conditioning discs dislodges Aluminum Oxide from the discs and metal particles, which can lead to premature engine bearing failure. In some cases this failure occurs in as little as 1,000 miles or less after the repair has been made.

Surface conditioning discs may grind the component material and imbed it into the disc. This can result when more aggressive pressure is applied during the cleaning/grinding of the gasket surface.

Do not use abrasive pad/bristle devices to clean the gasket surfaces of engine components. Abrasive pads or devices should not be used for the following reasons:

Abrasive pads will produce fine grit that the oil filter will not be able to remove from the oil. The grit that cannot be filter out has been known to cause engine damage. Abrasive pads can easily remove enough material to round cylinder head surfaces. This has been known to affect the gasket’s ability to seal, especially in the narrow seal areas between the combustion chamber and the coolant jackets.

Abrasive pads can also remove enough material to affect cylinder head, block, oil pan rail, and intake manifold runner flatness, which can cause coolant and oil leaks. It takes only about 15 seconds to remove .008” of metal with an abrasive pad.

To clean such gasket mating surfaces, General Motors recommends the use of a razor blade or plastic gasket scraper. When cleaning gasket surfaces, please note the following:

When using a razor blade type gasket scraper, use a new razor blade for each cylinder head and corresponding block surface. Hold the blade as parallel to the gasket surface as possible. The will ensure that the razor blade does not gouge or scratch the gasket surface.
Do not gouge or scrape the combustion chamber surfaces.
Do not gouge or scratch any engine-sealing surface during the cleaning process.
The appearance of the gasket surface is not critical – the feel is. There is a possibility that there will be some indentations from the gasket left in the cylinder head after all the gasket material is removed. The new gasket will fill these small indentations when it is installed.


"Bristle devises?" They're pretty vague on their description of "bristle devises."

Here's what Underhood Service Magazine says:


Surface Finishing Discs - Great For Body Repair, Bad For Engine Repair

March 27, 2012

By Roy Berndt

Nearly everything can have value; it just depends upon how it is used. For instance, “rat poison” will certainly get rid of unsightly rodents and is usually fatal to humans. Except, of course, when it’s used in the correct dosage. As a blood thinner for those with heart disease, it becomes a life-saving medication.

Well there is a “rat poison” for engines that is used regularly and daily in nearly any installation shop and by DIYers. SURFACE CONDITIONING DISCS, often referred to as cookies within the shop environment, were originally designed for use in the auto body shop, I believe.

Figure 1: Note the brushed-looking surface from using a surface conditioning disc. The action releases aluminum oxide as well as metal particles removed from the base metal.

Here is where the problem lies when using them to clean engine gasket surfaces, or for cleaning engine parts which are to be reused. If the intent is to have a surface that is perfectly clean and ready for the gasket to be applied, surface conditioning discs can do that quickly and give the APPEARANCE of a perfect surface. That is the up-side of these products – at least in the eye of the technician.

Surface conditioning discs are typically woven fiber pads that can be purchased in various degrees of abrasive grades somewhat similar to sand paper. They contain various different abrasives within their woven fibers, the most aggressive being Aluminum Oxide. As these discs are used on surfaces they break down and release large amounts of aluminum oxide along with the metal particles that are being removed from the base metal and results in a brushed look to it (Figure 1).

The aluminum oxide along with the micro particles removed from the base metal are two of the most potentially damaging components that could be introduced into an engine. These particles ingested into an internal combustion engine, be it through the induction system or contamination of the lubricating oil system, will certainly cause a premature engine failure.

Figure 2: Piston rings with micro fibers and base metal from surface conditioning disc embedded onto their faces will prematurely wear the ring lands of the pistons as the rings rotate during the combustion cycle.

When introduced through the induction system, whether through the intake manifold or cylinder head ports, these particles will cause piston ring damage (Figure 2), premature cylinder and piston wear (Figure 3) as well as high oil consumption. The engine in these two illustrations had 100 miles of operation after being contaminated. This is how fast the damage can occur!

When these same contaminants are introduced into the lubricating oil system the damage is horrific and immediate. Imagine adding lapping compound into your engine’s oiling system: you can expect an abrupt failure in very short order. Aluminum oxide and base metal particles actually make a pretty good lapping compound. Both the journal surfaces of the rod and main bearing journals already exhibit extreme wear as well as the thrust flange of the crankshaft.

Other components that would be affected by these types of contaminants include camshaft bearing surfaces and cam lobes, lifters and lifter bores as well as timing chains and gears. In fact, any component that is contacted by the engines lubricating oil and rotates or moves will experience accelerated wear.

Figure 3: Piston skirt and cylinder wall damage caused by contaminants introduced through the induction system by surface conditioning discs.

Is it impossible to use a surface refinishing disc and not cause engine damage? No. However the extent of cleaning that needs to be done is staggering. Cleaning with solutions, preferably high pressure vacuuming and flushing of all areas that have had any contact of any of the aluminum oxide dust, base metal or removed gasket materials is required, needs to be extensive, and is frankly not worth the chance of contamination.

This all brings us back to using gasket scrapers, razor blades, plastic knives and gasket removing liquids/sprays to remove and clean gasket surfaces without the use of discs. The important issue here is a clean gasket surface and how it feels not how it looks. If it is clean and the surface feels clean and obstruction free, then there should be no issue with a gasket being able to seal.

The last item that we need to discuss about refinishing discs is the damage that you can do to the surface itself. A fresh surface refinishing disc can remove as much as .008˝ in just 15 seconds. That amount of material removed will invariably do more damage to the gasket’s ability to seal than help it.

Bottom line, surface finishing discs are a wonderful tool in many walks of life and are truly a miracle tool in the body and fender repair world. However, when it comes to engines, whether a used engine, newly remanufactured engine or even an engine repair, they can be the kiss of death. Unless you have the means and resource to effectively clean all the contamination from surface refinishing discs you would be best to stay away from these tools. This contamination is easily identifiable by oil sampling of the engine and is a just cause to deny warranty.

In closing, don’t think you’ll be the exception and do a good job with them: there is not a single auto manufacturer that approves of surface refinishing discs. Whether domestic or foreign nameplate, no one approves the use of these tools for the engine. Many OE manufacturers even have caution bulletins to specifically not use this product on anything that has to do with the engine or parts that bolt to an engine.

So if you are looking to the best job possible when it comes to engines, think twice about using surface finishing discs. You’ll avoid the potential damage and denied warranty by an engine remanufacturer, be it aftermarket or OE. If evidence is found of their use your warranty will be null and void.

Surface conditioning discs are typically woven fiber pads that can be purchased in various degrees of abrasive grades somewhat similar to sand paper.
Underhood Service

"Typically Woven Fiber Pads."

I don't think they're talking about the plastic bristle discs.



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Lotek

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"Bristel devises?" They're pretty vague on their description of "bristle devises."

Here's what Underhood Service Magazine says:




Underhood Service

"Typically Woven Fiber Pads."

I don't think they're talking bout the plastic bristle discs.

Yes, they are,

When cleaning engine gasket sealing surfaces and/or cleaning parts from an engine that are to be reused, surface conditioning disks (typically constructed of woven fiber or molded bristles) that contain abrasives, such as a high amount of Aluminum Oxide, should NOT be used.

That's straight from the GM tsb
 

OEXL16B

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Disc is a molded, abrasive filled bristle disc instead of wire brushes for automotive use on aluminum and metal. Use for deburring, blending, finishing, polishing, cleaning and for coating, defect, scratch and rust removal.

3M Roloc Bristle Discs

They're saying "Automotive Use."



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Fedwrench

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This forum is great. You can learn something new everyday. I never knew the bristles had abrasive in them. :wtf: I always thought they were just plastic bristles.:beer:
 

DandDMachine

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I run an automotive machine shop. I see heads come in all the time after having been "resurfaced" with these things. You can definately tell when you are resurfacing a head that the corners are rounded, or too much material has been removed. I have had heads that are warped .004" that have had to be cut by .010" to clean them up. With todays overhead cam engines you cant resurface much from them. I have had several customers that have had to replace heads when they were to badly worn from these things. These bristle discs are much better than the traditional "cookie" discs, and are not too bad when used on manifold surfaces, or valve covers etc.. A few tips if you are going to use them. #1 keep them away from head gasket and block deck surfaces. #2 Make sure you dont use them near the short block of the engine or any other area that cant be thouroughly cleaned as the debris will cause issues. #3 If you do use them on manifold surfaces etc.. make sure the parts will be cleaned after. #4 They work pretty fast, dont take any more material off than necessary it does not need to be perfectly shiny to be clean. Let the tool do the work, you dont need to go overboard with pressure. I would recommend a good gasket scraper I use,and love this one
http://www.goodson.com/SS-4U-1-1_4_Wide_Super_Scraper/
 

larryq

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Lotek is doing a big service for the forum, reiterating his message. In short, abrasive discs on body work = good. On engine work = bad.
 
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