3ph to single phase for Car hoist

[landydoni]

Ive aquired an all mechanical/electric stenhoj 6000lb 2 post car hoist that I am itching to get operational.

It came with a 3hp 3 phase motor, but I only have single phase power available.

Im trying to figure out the most cost effective way to get it going and Im finding myself going around in circles and am hoping for some real life experience and expertise as it seams the online community for these lifts is non-existant.

My options so far:

-Run a VFD ~$140 (ebay)-but im not sure if it will provide the starting torque, and I have never played around with one before.

-Buy a 3-5hp single phase motor $600+ (already have a drum switch to use for this application if need be)

-Buy a 1.5-2Hp single phase motor and build a reduction gear train $400 (already built a 3:1 reduction unit) the lift would operate 3 times slower but for home use thats fine.

Thats pretty much where I am at, does anybody have any suggestions or insight they would like to contribute?

Ill take some pictures of the beast next time im in the shop.

cheers, -LD

 

[mrb]

VFD but get a good one, not some random off ebay. Practicalmachinist has alot of info on them.

 

[Gooch]

VFD but get a good one, not some random off ebay. Practicalmachinist has alot of info on them.

Ditto.

Wouldn't even consider a $150 VFD for that application. I put a VFD for a 3/4hp motor and that was ~$400.

 

[PatJ800]

My vote is to shop more carefully for a motor. Call a local electrical place or anywhere from the yellow pages that has "motor" in their name. I don't know any details about what you are looking (C-face, etc.) but you can get a 2hp from Harbor Freight for a little over $100.

 

[landydoni]

My vote is to shop more carefully for a motor. Call a local electrical place or anywhere from the yellow pages that has "motor" in their name. I don't know any details about what you are looking (C-face, etc.) but you can get a 2hp from Harbor Freight for a little over $100.

Mounts aren't a big concern as I can make anything work but side mount would be preferable.

Im in Canada so no harbor freight, our "equivalent" princess auto stocks 2 hp motors for $250 but only 3450 rpm. (sorry should of specified I need a 1725rpm) motor.

MRB/GOOCH Thanks for the info on vfd's

wish I could just get one of these:
http://www.harborfreight.com/2-horsepower-compressor-duty-motor-67842.html
as long as it can be reversed with a drum switch I would be in business.

 

[larry_g]

The prices you have posted are hi retail prices. I would suggest the surplus center as one place to shop. Can you post a picture of the drive/gearbox your working with? Maybe even the whole lift if it is up.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[landydoni]

The prices you have posted are hi retail prices. I would suggest the surplus center as one place to shop. Can you post a picture of the drive/gearbox your working with? Maybe even the whole lift if it is up.

lg
no neat sig line

Sure can. Will take/post some pictures tomorrow. Here in Victoria BC Canada that seems to be the norm for motor prices.

 

[Printer Mike]

I like the geared-down option. That way, the motor isn't working so hard.

 

[Norcal]

Ditto.

Wouldn't even consider a $150 VFD for that application. I put a VFD for a 3/4hp motor and that was ~$400.

A 3 HP drive can be bought for under $200.00 I bought one for a Rockwell HD shaper for less then 2 bills shipped (GE Fuji) , above 3 HP & it gets real expensive, as they are 3Ø input models that the phase loss protection can be disabled & they need to be derated 50%, single phase input models do not need derating.


I also bought a Teco VFD 1 HP 1Ø input in a NEMA type 4 enclosure & it was expensive, can't remember but it was between 3 & 4 hundred dollars.

If the motor is to be replaced, HF is not the place to look for a motor, ChiCom garbage......

 

[landydoni]

A 3 HP drive can be bought for under $200.00 I bought one for a Rockwell HD shaper for less then 2 bills shipped (GE Fuji) , above 3 HP & it gets real expensive, as they are 3Ø input models that the phase loss protection can be disabled & they need to be derated 50%, single phase input models do not need derating.


I also bought a Teco VFD 1 HP 1Ø input in a NEMA type 4 enclosure & it was expensive, can't remember but it was between 3 & 4 hundred dollars.

If the motor is to be replaced, HF is not the place to look for a motor, ChiCom garbage......

When using a VFD is there any power loss like when using a rotary phase converter? where did your $200 unit come from? how about this unit: http://www.factorymation.com/s.nl/it.A/id.198/.f?sc=2&category=32
Would it be suitable?

cheers -LD

 

[W-Cummins]

When using a VFD is there any power loss like when using a rotary phase converter? where did your $200 unit come from? how about this unit: http://www.factorymation.com/s.nl/it.A/id.198/.f?sc=2&category=32
Would it be suitable?

cheers -LD

No power loss on the VFD and that model looks like it should work fine. I like VFD's and I'm currently running 7 of them, they just keep getting better and cheaper like a lot of electronic stuff does.

William

 

[Falcon67]

I have a Teco 2HP VFD on my 1 HP 3 phase mill. After using a VFD I wish every tool I had came with a 3 phase motor. Cost was about $170.

 

[rsanter]

go VFD
and there is nothing wrong with a 'new' $150 VFD from anywhere....
look at the brand and not the price
I picked up a (list price) $1500 VFD new in the box off eBay for around $150 a few years back

bob

 

[landydoni]

Here are a few pictures of the hoist as promised, excuse the miss-matched paint Im in the process of painting it. Its all bolted to the floor and I have installed a new chain.

Here is the usable 3hp 3 phase motor I have the option of using:

And the simple chain driven 3:1 reduction unit I built If i decide to use a smaller single phase motor. it mounts parallel to the motor on the top of the post:

 

[klhitman]

i work for a HVAC OEM and i can get you a ABB vfd at my cost if you want to go that route. send me a PM if you want to. i will have to check the prices.one thing to remember about VFD's is, if you have a 3HP the you want to step up to the next VFD size so you can get your full load amps. unless you get a VFD that is specific to single phase to 3PH. but really all that is, is the the next size up with a new label on it.

just let me know.

 

[landydoni]

i work for a HVAC OEM and i can get you a ABB vfd at my cost if you want to go that route. send me a PM if you want to. i will have to check the prices.one thing to remember about VFD's is, if you have a 3HP the you want to step up to the next VFD size so you can get your full load amps. unless you get a VFD that is specific to single phase to 3PH. but really all that is, is the the next size up with a new label on it.

just let me know.

PM sent, cheers

 

[landydoni]

I've decided to go with the smaller single phase motor and gear reduction for my hoist as I was able to find a good used motor for free.

My next question concerns wiring. I want to hook it up with a drum switch for forward and reverse but Im drawing a blank as to how to hook it up (if its even possible with the components I have)

Here are some pictures of the drum switch and motor. According to the motor diagram you switch the blue and yellow wires for reversing.

Switch:

Thanks for the help!

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Cannot make out the motor wiring connections diagram, too blurry.

Does the drum switch have a diagram inside the cover?

I did this with my drill press, used a Square D fwd/off/rev drum switch. I ran the power cord to the drum switch and then it took seven wires between the switch and the motor if I recall correctly.

Charles

 

[landydoni]

Cannot make out the motor wiring connections diagram, too blurry.

Does the drum switch have a diagram inside the cover?

I did this with my drill press, used a Square D fwd/off/rev drum switch. I ran the power cord to the drum switch and then it took seven wires between the switch and the motor if I recall correctly.

Charles

For the motor: The power wires go to the 'yellow/black' terminal and the 'brown/red' terminal. to reverse switch the blue and yellow wire positions.

drum switch: no diagram.

I think I figured it out, I have the 2 power wires to the drum switch and 7 wires from the motor to the switch, however when the switch is in the off position I have power to the 'black/yellow' terminal. In other words any time the unit is plugged in there is power to one terminal of the motor. Will this damage the motor?

summary:
When the switch is in any position there is power to one terminal of the motor, When the switch is in the forward direction it applies power to the second terminal. when in reverse it would switch the yellow and blue wires and apply power to the second terminal.

Thanks for the input.

 

[HiWind]

I'm in a very similar spot with another Stenhoj 2 post - need to replace the 3phase motor with a single phase option.

http://www.stenhoj.dk/media/Mascot_1.30_(GB).pdf

not sure what I'm looking at here but as we run 220-240V, am i looking for a 50Hz machine that puts out 2.8 KW (3.75hp? Or would a 3HP (2.2KW) option work, just more slowly?

Not sure if the OP is around .. is the reducing gear also necessary?

else I can go the inverter route - expensive but a FRD 720s 2,2 kw VSD will do the job for about $375

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/inverter-drives/6910004/

 

[theoldwizard1]

-Buy a 3-5hp single phase motor $600+ (already have a drum switch to use for this application if need be)

This !

Shop for a used motor. You should be able to sell the 3ph one for about the same or maybe even more !

EDIT : New. surplus. single phase 5hp Baldor <$150 on eBay !

 

[Norcal]

This !

Shop for a used motor. You should be able to sell the 3ph one for about the same or maybe even more !

EDIT : New. surplus. single phase 5hp Baldor <$150 on eBay !

3 phase motors are not worth much used.

 

[dmdc411]

Get a single phase motor same HP & RPMs, 3 phase won't run with single phase power, just burn up.

 

[James-W]

Here is a 3hp single phase electric motor for way less than than $200.

http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result?q=3hp+electric+motor

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Get a single phase motor same HP & RPMs, 3 phase won't run with single phase power, just burn up.

Thats why u run the motor with a VFD...

 

[dmdc411]

My dealings with industrial setups, all are wired 3 phase line, 3 phase VFD, 3 phase motor. If you can run a 3 Ph VFD, and a 3 Ph motor on single phase line, never seen it. Possible? Don't know!
Sorry, I'm wrong, had to Google it. Our engineers would never allow us to do this because of the severe hit in derating. Loose all your efficiency. We just shut down that piece and fix it the correct way.

 

[manwithtools]

This !

Shop for a used motor. You should be able to sell the 3ph one for about the same or maybe even more !

EDIT : New. surplus. single phase 5hp Baldor <$150 on eBay !

Three phase motors are typically cheaper than single phase motors. No start or run capacitors or centrifugal switches.

 

[manwithtools]

My dealings with industrial setups, all are wired 3 phase line, 3 phase VFD, 3 phase motor. If you can run a 3 Ph VFD, and a 3 Ph motor on single phase line, never seen it. Possible? Don't know!
Sorry, I'm wrong, had to Google it. Our engineers would never allow us to do this because of the severe hit in derating. Loose all your efficiency. We just shut down that piece and fix it the correct way.

Your engineers would allow you to do that IF you did not have three phase available at the point of use.

Single phase input to VFD's are very common in lower horsepower applications. A typical home shop does not have three phase available, so a VFD is a perfect solution to power and control three phase equipment which can typically be bought much more reasonably than single phase equipment.

 

[Norcal]

Single phase input drives for 3 HP and under are available at fairly reasonable prices & no derating required. If you buy no name ChiCom drives that have no support off fleabay, prob. get them even cheaper, but you get what you pay for. Where getting a replacement 1Ø motor is either impossible or very difficult, a VFD is the most economical solution. Have done that with a couple of Rockwell machines of mine, one was a 200V, 3Ø, 7" grinder, that there was no way to change the motor, & a drill press that had a odd motor that did not correspond with standard NEMA frame sizes.

 

[54stude]

Does ne need a three phase motor to be able to
Reverse travel? Up and down, this is a mechanical hoist. Three phase motors, swap any two wires and they run backwards. I think a vfd might be needed in this case?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Does ne need a three phase motor to be able to
Reverse travel? Up and down, this is a mechanical hoist. Three phase motors, swap any two wires and they run backwards. I think a vfd might be needed in this case?

Thats what the drum switch, that he already has, is for.

 

[54stude]

Thats what the drum switch, that he already has, is for.

Ahhh, missed that.