4' fluorescent tubes vs. 4' led tubes?

[the duck]

Hello,
I'm in the middle of building a 30 x 40' garage with 9' ceilings, and sheet rocked throughout. I was originally planning on using two rows of 4' fluorescent tube lights, eight fixtures in each row, for a total of 16 fixtures (one every five feet).

I have no experience with the 4' led lights that look similar in appearance to the traditional 4' fluorescent tube lights. What I want to know is, is the added expense worth it for the led's - better light quality, longer lasting, more energy efficient etc? Also is 16 fixtures in two rows of eight overkill for a 30x40' structure?

I plan on mounting them flush to the 9' ceiling and connected to a single switch. I'm also hoping to find a fixture that will have a pull chain option so that when I want to limit the lighting, I can turn some off selectively.

Any thoughts, opinions, experiences would be appreciated.
Thanks for your time,
Matt

 

[cybrdyke]

The power and maintenance costs that you save by using LEDs is determined by how many hours that you intend to have the lights ON.
How many hours do you think you'll be using them? (answer per year if possible).
CD

 

[Crusarius]

I am cheap. I bought a 4 pack of LED tubes. Instead of modifying fixtures and installing the new bulbs I made some wire leads with 110 plug on the end that I plugged into the end of the tube then into an outlet. I then put 1" diameter spring clips on the ceiling and clipped the bulbs into them. Works great. Saved a ton of money and headache mounting the lights. And now if I need a drop light I reach up grab one and pull it off the ceiling.

I had 4 of them but my parents liked what I did so much 2 of them disappeared.

One thing I will highly recommend is to get the frosted lenses. The clear lenses **** if you are laying on the floor looking at them.

 

[texas123]

I just did mine in 6500K fluorescent, 2850 lumen per bulb. People will try to convince you of LED's being better & they might be, but they seemed too expensive to me. Ballast's at HD last 90,000 hours, Phillips bulbs 27.4 years @ 3hrs/day. 4 Bulb fixtures run $50-$60. Cheap & readily available; the lights I mean. Here's a link...

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=334123

 

[matemike]

we'll need to see a picture of that

 

[the duck]

In terms of light usage, I'd estimate three hours per day year round - maybe 1,100 hours per year? Just a ballpark figure.

 

[Falcon67]

I got a pair of LED tubes from Sams for a test. Do not care for the color temp and im real sure there is no payback for switching based on the cost difference. The Sams 4' LED fixtures are much brighter

 

[cybrdyke]

In terms of light usage, I'd estimate three hours per day year round - maybe 1,100 hours per year? Just a ballpark figure.

Based on 1000 hours per year, the T8's will last about 20 years, the LED's about 50 years.
Quality of light is very similar with both being around 80 CRI.
Each 2 lamp fixture of T8's will use 59 watts. If you pay 10c per kilowatt hour, that's $5.90 per year.
Each 2 lamp fixture of LED will consume somewhere around 40 watts, depending on the lamp you choose. That's $4.00 per year, a savings of $1.90 per year per 2 lamp fixture.

Hope that helps you...
CD

 

[schor]

I am seriously thinking of going led, I have 4' t8's now and I am replacing them almost every year, not sure why they keep failing.

 

[Spudland_Dave]

As my T12/T8's fail in my basement I am replacing them with LED Replacement tubes...direct drive, no ballast type. 5000k, and I love em.

Why I haven't and shy away from the whole fixture type is a) Cost...the high end ones are still too much and b) if/when the cheaper fixtures die, sure its an easy swap out, but I'm a little too OCD to have a mis-matched fixture. So I figure with the tubes, if one dies I'll just replace the tube and the fixtures will match for years to come as I don't see the T8 LED Replacement tubes going away anytime soon.

 

[Showkey]

I am seriously thinking of going led, I have 4' t8's now and I am replacing them almost every year, not sure why they keep failing.

Depending on the LED bulbs purchased your Replacement schedule might not change for the better

 

[the duck]

Thanks for all the input.
Cybrdyke - Thanks for the cost calculation, that's good to know. Great name too!

Any thoughts on hooded vs. non-hooded 4'lights? My original plan was non-hooded, flush mounted right to the sheet rock. Still not sure about the led vs. fluorescent - so many varying opinions out there.
Thanks again,
Matt

 

[jtpfarm]

Don't just look at the purchase cost, many places offer significant rebates for LEDs. I have some customers getting 50% back in cash rebates. Also, in general, fluorescent bulbs lose lumens faster than LEDs. Obviously that can vary greatly based on the quality of LED you install. It doesn't seem to be runtime that kills fluorescent bubs, its the on/off cycles.

 

[the duck]

Currently looking at 4', two bulb, LED tubes through Bee Lighting in California. The fixture is $15, and the tubes are $9 each. They came recommended by a friend and can be seen here: http://www.beeslighting.com/product-p/st48232-led.htm

Anyone use these "Diva" brand lights?
Any thoughts on 4000k vs. 5000k color in a workshop space?
Thanks,
Matt

 

[Showkey]

4000 or 5000 ...........100% personal preference.........personally I hate 5000

 

[Geobound]

I am seriously thinking of going led, I have 4' t8's now and I am replacing them almost every year, not sure why they keep failing.

If you are replacing them that fast, then you either never turn them off, or you have a ballast problem.

T8 lamps have a rated life of 20,000 hours (though the newer versions can be as much as 30,000). Of course this is an average life rating based on a certain test criteria where 50% of the lamps fail.

Thanks for all the input.
Cybrdyke - Thanks for the cost calculation, that's good to know. Great name too!

Any thoughts on hooded vs. non-hooded 4'lights? My original plan was non-hooded, flush mounted right to the sheet rock. Still not sure about the led vs. fluorescent - so many varying opinions out there.
Thanks again,
Matt

Hooded vs non-hooded I think means reflector, correct?

If so, then you will get a limited benefit of using a "hooded" one on an LED lamps, as it will typically only have 120° of light distribution, whereas a traditional T8 lamps has 360° of light distribution.

Don't just look at the purchase cost, many places offer significant rebates for LEDs. I have some customers getting 50% back in cash rebates. Also, in general, fluorescent bulbs lose lumens faster than LEDs. Obviously that can vary greatly based on the quality of LED you install. It doesn't seem to be runtime that kills fluorescent bubs, its the on/off cycles.

When doing lighting calculations of a T8 lamp you typically will take 20% off of the initial lumens, to get your end of lamp life lumens.

With LED (unless stated as LM70) you will lose up to 30% of your initial lumens over the same period of time. LED's actually have a quicker initial depreciation rate over conventional T8's.

Currently looking at 4', two bulb, LED tubes through Bee Lighting in California. The fixture is $15, and the tubes are $9 each. They came recommended by a friend and can be seen here: http://www.beeslighting.com/product-p/st48232-led.htm

Anyone use these "Diva" brand lights?
Any thoughts on 4000k vs. 5000k color in a workshop space?
Thanks,
Matt

Given the cheap costs (you get what you pay for), I would consider giving these a go, but as far a colour temperature goes.........that's an opinion thing.

I mentioned this elsewhere, but 2700-3000k it considered a warm light source and is what you see in your A19 lamps at home, 3500k is considered neutral and is what most office spaces use, 4100 is considered cool and is found in pharmacies and some low end retails spaces (think K-mart).

Anything over 5000 is considered cold, and is getting into the visual blue spectrum.

Personally I use all my lighting at 3500k, unless there is a feature or something like artwork that I want to light up.

Of course there is also the issue of CRI (typically 80), but some new LED's are now available in 90+........not too often would any of us want the 90+ CRI.

4000 or 5000 ...........100% personal preference.........personally I hate 5000

Totally agree with nothing more than 5k, but 3500 is still my preference.

Although the last time I looked at a big box store, most of their lamps are in the 4k+ range. ***** really.

 

[Geobound]

Sorry I had missed this question.

Based on your layout you would get approximately 50fc on the workplane using a traditional 2lamp T8 fluorescent fixture.

It's hard to say what you would get with the LED as there are a zillion different options of fixture/lamps available to you.

If I knew for sure which one it was, I might be able to find the IES file for it.

If I base it off of a simple LED 2 lamp fixture, you could get as low as 35fc using the same layout.

Also putting that many fluorescent fixtures on a single circuit will have you drawing just over 900watts, and the max you can have per circuit (15amp breaker) is 1440watts, so just watch that you don't add too much else to it.

 

[the duck]

Thanks for the information, it's very helpful. I think I'm going to go with 4000 - not sure they sell a 3500 version, but I'll check it out. I've read some descriptions that make the 5000's sound a bit on the harsh side - so many options, makes me appreciate Henry Ford's line "any color you want as long as it's black" - the no-option approach!
Thanks for your time,
Matt

 

[Spudland_Dave]

Thanks for the information, it's very helpful. I think I'm going to go with 4000 - not sure they sell a 3500 version, but I'll check it out. I've read some descriptions that make the 5000's sound a bit on the harsh side - so many options, makes me appreciate Henry Ford's line "any color you want as long as it's black" - the no-option approach!
Thanks for your time,
Matt

IMHO I would go buy a couple "Sample" Bulbs in some various color temps to see what you really want.
I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt, 5000k is the most perfect light/color temp there is. Be it LED or Fluorescent....FOR ME.

In my garage I was given a pallet of T5HO fixtures WITH bulbs which are 4100k, Only good thing I have to say about the color of the bulbs is "They were free" and I even have a case of new spare bulbs too If I win the powerball this week, or if I ever run out of bulbs, I will be SURE to replace them with 5000k bulbs.

4100k is "OK"...less then 4000 you may as well light the place with candles as the color is so yellow its awful. 6500k is a bit too blue.

I can "Deal" with 4100k...5000k is what I like.

 

[the duck]

Thanks Dave,
That's a good idea - I can order/install the fixtures and just buy four bulbs to compare the two different colors. Probably the smart thing to do before I spend $300+ on bulbs.
Thanks again,
Matt

 

[Geobound]

IMHO I would go buy a couple "Sample" Bulbs in some various color temps to see what you really want.
I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt, 5000k is the most perfect light/color temp there is. Be it LED or Fluorescent....FOR ME.

In my garage I was given a pallet of T5HO fixtures WITH bulbs which are 4100k, Only good thing I have to say about the color of the bulbs is "They were free" and I even have a case of new spare bulbs too If I win the powerball this week, or if I ever run out of bulbs, I will be SURE to replace them with 5000k bulbs.

4100k is "OK"...less then 4000 you may as well light the place with candles as the color is so yellow its awful. 6500k is a bit too blue.

I can "Deal" with 4100k...5000k is what I like.

I certainly can't argue with what is right for you as we all have different tastes, but the light output is the same regardless of the kelvin temperature in fluorescent.

It's key to say fluorescent, as the light output can vary in LED.

Good suggestion on trying some out first.

Thanks Dave,
That's a good idea - I can order/install the fixtures and just buy four bulbs to compare the two different colors. Probably the smart thing to do before I spend $300+ on bulbs.
Thanks again,
Matt

I would look and see if you have a major lamp manufacturer in your area (Osram/Sylvania, Philips, GE), as they will most definitely have a showroom of some sort there.

Too be honest I don't know if they would cater to the general public in as much as letting you see it, but it's worth a shot.

If that doesn't work then I would go and see your nearest local distributor.

They almost always have a light box as a sample that I'm sure they could show you.

Plus there is a possibility that you will get them cheaper than a big box store.

It is worth noting about colour temperatures that the more extreme you go either way in the colour spectrum, that it does change the appearance of objects and fluids that you could be working with.

Good luck.

 

[jt777]

My opinion is go led. It is better technology and is what i would put in any shop i was building to use for years unless money is tight.

 

[the duck]

At this point, I believe I'll be buying the LED (retrofitted) fixtures through Bee Lighting, and sampling some different temperature bulbs before committing to buying 30 of them.

I have spent my entire life working under fluorescent lights (for better or worse), so it's a break from the familiar for me. After speaking with approximately 20 different people, I'd say the votes in favor of LED have been about 12 to 8. Not sure if I have a manufacturer in the area, but I'll look into it - I'd love to see a display where you can really compare things without having 20 different lights on simultaneously...
Thanks for everyone's time and all the great input! - Matt

 

[Geobound]

I would go LED as well, but I would invest in a good fixture rather than the cheapest thing I could find.

Depending on where the LED's are located in relationship to your line of sight, I would definitely get a frosted lens for them.

These suckers can get pretty uncomfortable fast if you are continually looking at the point source.

A frosted lens will knock down roughly 20% of the light output (unless the delivered lumens have been given as a complete fixture), so take that into your light level requirements.

The other good thing with LED lighting is that in most cases you can dim them simply with forward phase or reverse phase dimming, providing the driver is dimming capable, which means you can go for higher light level than desired and cheaply dim it down if it's too bright.

 

[the duck]

I've read good reviews of these Costco lamps:
http://www.costco.com/4’-Linkable-LED-Shop-Light-with-Pull-Chain-2-pack.product.100284402.html

Any thoughts/opinions/experiences with these over the Diva lights?:
http://www.beeslighting.com/product-p/st48232-led.htm

Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Matt

 

[Geobound]

I've read good reviews of these Costco lamps:
http://www.costco.com/4’-Linkable-LED-Shop-Light-with-Pull-Chain-2-pack.product.100284402.html

Any thoughts/opinions/experiences with these over the Diva lights?:
http://www.beeslighting.com/product-p/st48232-led.htm

Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Matt

Well I don't have any experience with this particular light fixture, I am at least encouraged that Costco has a great return policy.

This gives you a bit more lumens compared to a T8 lamp with comparable power consumption, but a much smaller footprint.

A pull chain on a fixture could be a nice adder, but you can still control it from the wall.

It doesn't say whether you can dim it or not, but that wouldn't be too hard to test out.

It has the 4K that you were talking about, so that could be a plus.

I'd say give it a go, and if it doesn't work then Costco will take them back.

 

[HRJoe]

I don't like how LEDs cast a shadow. For body & paint work, I much prefer fluorescents.

 

[Geobound]

I don't like how LEDs cast a shadow. For body & paint work, I much prefer fluorescents.

That's because LED's are a point source, and fluorescents are a 360 light source.

Depending on your placement of fixtures and tasks being performed, LED shadowing can be beat.

 

[Mitch1963]

The building on the left has six 8 foot t12 HO fluorescents 110 watt 4100k new bulbs. The building on the right has 14 four foot 18 watt 2200 lumens 5000k leds. Building on the left is 30x40x12 with two rows of lights.

 

[cybrdyke]

The building on the left has six 8 foot t12 HO fluorescents 110 watt 4100k new bulbs. The building on the right has 14 four foot 18 watt 2200 lumens 5000k leds. Building on the left is 30x40x12 with two rows of lights.

Mitch,
That's actually a very decent representation of the difference in results.
700 watts vs 250 watts.
Good photo.
CD

 

[Mitch1963]

I screwed up... its the building on the the right that is 30x40x12. The building on the left is 36x50x10.

 

[the duck]

Thanks for all the great input - very helpful in making an informed decision. Leaning toward the Costco fixtures right now - good point about their return policy, and the pull chain is a nice bonus too if I want to get selective with where I'm working.
Thanks for all the time and ideas! - Matt

 

[bullnerd]

That's a great pic Mitch and looks like a real nice set-up, congrats.

 

[the duck]

Update: Has anyone tried hard wiring these?:
http://www.costco.com/4’-Lin...100284402.html

They've got a plug coming out one end - I'm not sure I can hard wire directly to the ceiling. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Matt

 

[Spudland_Dave]

I would go LED as well, but I would invest in a good fixture rather than the cheapest thing I could find.

Same here, But this is where the "Wallet vs Wishes" comes into play...

I would MUCH Rather have had some LED's in my shop...but to outfit it correctly with QUALITY LED's would have cost me in the $2,500+ range. Going with QUALITY T8's would have been a fraction of that...in the end I got a whole pallet of high end T5HO Fixtures WITH BULBS for $0.00. I'd never ever see any payback.

Its an easier leap to compare "Decent" T8 fixtures and bulbs to the cheapest LED offering from China...but over the long haul, I'm not so sure its as attractive as it seems initially.

 

[Falcon67]

All I'm seeing is the color temp difference between 4100K and 5000K. I prefer 5000~6500 in my bulbs in the shop, no less than 3500K in the house. The Sams bulbs I tested are "orange" to my eyes. Supposed to be 4000K, pretty much matches the "orange" look of the 4100s in the picture.

 

[iowa4x4dieselman]

Another thing to take into consideration is the buildings heat source. If it is heated year round, it will probably make less difference, but if you keep it cold and only heat it when you are out there, the fluorescent lights have a longer "warm up" time and it is multiplied in the cold weather.

Cycles on the bulb also has an affect on service life too!