#4 or #6 for the shop?

[HemiDave]

I'm running some wire to power my shop from the house. The run will be about 95ft. and go under the house. I 'acquired' some 4AWG3 and some 6AWG4 that was being disposed of and thought one or the other would work.

The shop will have a too small compressor, a Lincoln 5000 Mig, a Lincoln 225 stick (all running on 220), lights and power for grinders, etc.

Which one to use? Is the #6 good enough?

Thanks!

Dave

 

[Gary S]

If you have the #4, run it. If not, buy even bigger wire.
I ran #2 to my garage. It will never be too big.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Aluminum or Copper? What type of wire? (markings on the outside insulation, THHN, USE, etc), If #2 AL USE then you would have 90 amps of current capacity.

Charles

 

[HemiDave]

Aluminum or Copper? What type of wire? (markings on the outside insulation, THHN, USE, etc), If #2 AL USE then you would have 90 amps of current capacity.

Charles

Copper.

(UL) E69070 4AWG/3 STO 105C VW-1 Type TC 600V90C Dry Oil resT Chugoku

3 insulated wires in an insulated cover with a yellow and green external ground wire.

Really pretty stuff! The wires are as fine as hair. It bends like a limp weenie!

Dave

 

[mrb]

does it have 3 or 4 wires in it? does it say its listed for direct burial? the STO would make it a cord which you couldnt use but it appears to be dual listed as tray cable which you *might* be able to use. The best move would be to sell it as its worth alot more than the proper cable for your installation and purchase the right material for your job.

 

[pattenp]

The #4 you have is a 3 wire portable cord power cable. It's not to be used as an under ground feeder. You need a USE rated cable or THHN/THWN wire and have 4 wires (3 conductors and a ground).

 

[HemiDave]

The #4 you have is a 3 wire portable cord power cable.

Wow! I would hate to drag that 'power cord' around!! It's quite heavy.

What I'd planned to do was run it under the house, attached to the floor joists or run through conduit. It would need to run a short distance underground and then into the back wall of the shop, again, through hard plastic conduit.

BTW, it is 3 conductors and a much smaller ground.

Completely crazy or doable?

Thanks!

Dave

 

[pattenp]

When cord is labeled such as 12/3 then it only has 3 wires (2 conductors and a ground), where as when romex is labeled as 12/3 is has 3 conductors and a ground. The labeling schema for cord is different. So when you said 4/3 STO it should have 2 conductors and a ground. You can use the cord if you don't care about meeting code. I have to say it's more to crazy than doable.

 

[930dreamer]

Wow! I would hate to drag that 'power cord' around!! It's quite heavy.

What I'd planned to do was run it under the house, attached to the floor joists or run through conduit. It would need to run a short distance underground and then into the back wall of the shop, again, through hard plastic conduit.

BTW, it is 3 conductors and a much smaller ground.

Completely crazy or doable?

Thanks!

Dave

I'll make an extension cord out of it.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Strip it open and you have................... welding cable!!!!!!!!!!!

Charles

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Power and Control Tray Cable: Type TC
I. General
336.1 Scope. This article covers the use, installation, and
construction specifications for power and control tray cable,
Type TC.

336.2 Definition.
Power and Control Tray Cable, Type TC. A factory assembly
of two or more insulated conductors, with or without
associated bare or covered grounding conductors, under
a nonmetallic jacket.

II. Installation
336.10 Uses Permitted. Type TC cable shall be permitted
to be used as follows:
(1) For power, lighting, control, and signal circuits.
(2) In cable trays.
(3) In raceways.
(4) In outdoor locations supported by a messenger wire.
(5) For Class 1 circuits as permitted in Parts II and III of
Article 725.
(6) For non–power-limited fire alarm circuits if conductors
comply with the requirements of 760.49.
(7) In industrial establishments where the conditions of
maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified
persons service the installation, and where the cable is
continuously supported and protected against physical
damage using mechanical protection, such as struts,
angles, or channels, Type TC tray cable that complies
with the crush and impact requirements of Type MC
cable and is identified for such use with the marking
Type TC–ER shall be permitted between a cable tray
and the utilization equipment or device. The cable shall
be secured at intervals not exceeding 1.8 m (6 ft).
Equipment grounding for the utilization equipment
shall be provided by an equipment grounding conductor
within the cable. In cables containing conductors
sized 6 AWG or smaller, the equipment grounding conductor
shall be provided within the cable or, at the time
of installation, one or more insulated conductors shall
be permanently identified as an equipment grounding
conductor in accordance with 250.119(B).
Exception: Where not subject to physical damage, Type
TC-ER shall be permitted to transition between cable trays
and between cable trays and utilization equipment or devices
for a distance not to exceed 1.8 m (6 ft) without
continuous support. The cable shall be mechanically supported
where exiting the cable tray to ensure that the minimum
bending radius is not exceeded.
(8) Where installed in wet locations, Type TC cable shall
also be resistant to moisture and corrosive agents.
Informational Note: See 310.15(A)(3) for temperature
limitation of conductors.

336.12 Uses Not Permitted. Type TC tray cable shall not
be installed or used as follows:
(1) Installed where it will be exposed to physical damage
(2) Installed outside a raceway or cable tray system, except
as permitted in 336.10(4) and 336.10(7)
(3) Used where exposed to direct rays of the sun, unless
identified as sunlight resistant
(4) Direct buried, unless identified for such use.

336.24 Bending Radius. Bends in Type TC cable shall be
made so as not to damage the cable. For Type TC cable
without metal shielding, the minimum bending radius shall
be as follows:
(1) Four times the overall diameter for cables 25 mm
(1 in.) or less in diameter
(2) Five times the overall diameter for cables larger than
25 mm (1 in.) but not more than 50 mm (2 in.) in
diameter
(3) Six times the overall diameter for cables larger than
50 mm (2 in.) in diameter
Type TC cables with metallic shielding shall have a
minimum bending radius of not less than 12 times the cable
overall diameter.

336.80 Ampacity. The ampacity of Type TC tray cable
shall be determined in accordance with 392.80(A) for 14
AWG and larger conductors, in accordance with 402.5 for
18 AWG through 16 AWG conductors where installed in
cable tray, and in accordance with 310.15 where installed in
a raceway or as messenger-supported wiring.

III. Construction Specifications
**snip**

336.104 Conductors. The insulated conductors of Type TC
cables shall be in sizes 18 AWG to 1000 kcmil copper, nickel,
or nickel-coated copper, and sizes 12 AWG through 1000 kcmil
aluminum or copper-clad aluminum. Insulated conductors
of sizes 14 AWG, and larger copper, nickel, or nickel-coated
copper, and sizes 12 AWG through 1000 kcmil aluminum or
copper-clad aluminum shall be one of the types listed in Table
310.104(A) or Table 310.104(B) that is suitable for branch
circuit and feeder circuits or one that is identified for such use.
**snip**

336.116 Jacket.
**snip**

336.120 Marking.
**snip**

 

[Charles (in GA)]

It appears to not be rated for damp or wet locations, so it cannot be run underground, not even in a conduit (all conduit installations underground are considered wet locations by the code).

Charles

 

[mrb]

you guys are missing the 'Type TC' thats tray cable which is a NEC cable type, usually suitable for direct burial and sunlight exposure. I dont know if and where its allowed in residential uses. The STO is a dual listing. (I would love to see a product listed as STOW/TC-ER/NM-B/UF-B)

 

[sberry]

As to the original question, a 6 would run any one of those items but is too small considering the effort needed for permanent installation. If it was in place and I needed to get something done it might be a different matter but if I was putting in new, not. If I had to buy the wire it would be number 2 alum, you could be welding with a few lights on, a load like an air comp could come on without tripping the service or starving anything.

 

[sberry]

The box stores all sell a quad wire just for this. You can feed it up to 90A, I usually use a 60A breaker cause I am cheap like that and out of the,,, maybe dozen, 20 or so of these never had anyone trip. My Bud work from a garage connected to house via 2 and 60 for 20 yrs, 2 men, pretty respectable air comp, even 20A of AC on occasion and way too many lights.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

you guys are missing the 'Type TC' thats tray cable which is a NEC cable type, usually suitable for direct burial and sunlight exposure. I dont know if and where its allowed in residential uses. The STO is a dual listing. (I would love to see a product listed as STOW/TC-ER/NM-B/UF-B)

Note 336.12 above, not permitted for direct burial or sunlight unless it is specifically approved for that. You would need to look up the mfg specs on this product.

http://japancabletec.com/worldwide-associates.asp

http://japancabletec.com/category.asp?catid=0

http://japancabletec.com/series-info.asp?series=STO

http://japancabletec.com/series-info.asp?series=TC

 

[hh76]

if it's fine stranded, make sure that any termination points are rated for that. I don't think most standard breakers are, so you'd have to crimp on special ends.

 

[HemiDave]

Here is a pic of the wire. 3 conductor with an external ground.

I think I can run this wire in 2in conduit and use a 70 or 80 amp breaker and be fine. That would make it under the 90 amp rating and it would be protected in the conduit. The underground run is only about 10'. Any major problems with this?

Thanks!

Dave

 

[pattenp]

Yep! The 10' underground. Even in conduit it's considered a wet location. If the wire insulation is not rated for wet locations it has the potential of shorting because of moisture penetration. You need to verify it can be used in wet locations. That's my opinion.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Do I understand that there are three wires in the jacket, and one loose wire (the ground) coiled with the jacketed wire, but not actually part of it?

If this is the case, it cannot be used, as code requires that all of the wires be contained in the jacket, including the ground.

Charles

 

[HemiDave]

Yes, 3 in the jacket and 1 t1e wrapped to the jacket.

I have some 3AWG4 that is basically the same except it has WET on it. No external wires.

Thanks for the replies so far!

Dave

 

[HemiDave]

Could I run this wire under the house in conduit to a box outside the house and then use underground approved wire the 10' to the shop?

Thanks!

Dave

 

[nehog]

When cord is labeled such as 12/3 then it only has 3 wires (2 conductors and a ground), where as when romex is labeled as 12/3 is has 3 conductors and a ground. The labeling schema for cord is different. So when you said 4/3 STO it should have 2 conductors and a ground. You can use the cord if you don't care about meeting code. I have to say it's more to crazy than doable.

The /3 refers to the number of insulated conductors. The Romex ground is not insulated so that is why it appears that there is a difference.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Could I run this wire under the house in conduit to a box outside the house and then use underground approved wire the 10' to the shop?

Thanks!

Dave

If you are trying to be code compliant, you still face the issue of the ground wire not being in the jacket.

Cannot find the code section right now, but from what I recall, all the wires, including the ground, must be encased in the same jacket. Don't know how you came by the cord with the ground on the outside, but this may have been the very issue that lead them to not use the cord with the ground tywrapped to the outside of it.

Charles

 

[hidollartoys]

Check 400.7 & 400.8. I do not think it is allowed. Can not be used "As a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure." or "Where attached to building surfaces."