4' vs 8' led tubes

[jives]

Hi all:
I think I can get a good score (~ $5 per fixture, I need 10-12 fixtures depending on exactly what they are) on some 8' fluorescent T8 tube fixtures. These fixtures have tandem 8' tubes, not separate sections of 4' tubes. I'm not sure if the fixtures have single pin sockets or bi-pin sockets. They are out of a store, so I need to make sure that they are 120V. I can't take a look at them for another day or so

If they are suitable for residential lighting, I would consider swapping in 8' LED tubes, such as the ones here:

http://www.eledlights.com/led-lamps...t-ultra-high-lumen-led-tube.html#.VUDKqJNKXOs

At about $64 per tube, that is nearly $130 per fixture for 10,400 lumens. These tubes bypass the ballast, so if the ballasts are at the end of their lifespan, then this may be a solid choice. These will be mounted from 16-20 feet high in my vaulted ceiling garage. New T8 fluorescent bulbs with about the same lumen output and color are $10-15 per bulb. A whole lot better value, that is, unless the ballasts are shot.

My question is, I've seen a lot of discussion of tubes, including LED replacements, but no comments on 8' tubes or the single pin sockets. These sockets seem easier to work with if LEDs are used and the ballasts bypassed, as there is not shunted vs. non-shunted issues to deal with in rewiring.

So, comments on 8' tubes? The good, the bad, the ugly? Experience with 8' LEDs, especially?

 

[cybrdyke]

these no-name internet LED companies go out of business every day. I would never recommend giving them a penny, let alone $64 per tube, of my money. If you have a problem, you have absolutely no recourse to get replacement or your money back. They give you no information about the components they use, nor do they list any 3rd party certifications like UL, CSA.
You wont see many 8' LED tubes from name brand manufacturers. There's reasons for that.
For $64 per tube ($128 per fixture) you can get NEW stuff and do much better.
Good luck.
CD

 

[B&H]

these no-name internet LED companies go out of business every day. I would never recommend giving them a penny, let alone $64 per tube, of my money. If you have a problem, you have absolutely no recourse to get replacement or your money back. They give you no information about the components they use, nor do they list any 3rd party certifications like UL, CSA.
You wont see many 8' LED tubes from name brand manufacturers. There's reasons for that.
For $64 per tube ($128 per fixture) you can get NEW stuff and do much better.
Good luck.
CD

So what's the reason for name brand manufacturers not making 8' LED tubes?

 

[cybrdyke]

So what's the reason for name brand manufacturers not making 8' LED tubes?

Several. Obviously, money is one of them. As the LED industry sits today, there are other lamp types that are much higher on the "to do" list than 8' tubes. The other items that need to be addressed first, like 4 pin CFL lamps, T5HO lamps and others, will be much bigger money makers that the big manufacturers are going after.
Safety is another reason. There are real safety concerns with ballast bypass tubes and they are proving to be kind of sticky. Large manufacturers want no part of a lawsuit from an injured party. Depending on the wiring schematic, the lamp pins can be energized when only one end is inserted in the socket. Not cool. Also, at 277v, if someone was to put a fluorescent tube back into the socket, you have a real problem on your hands. The name brand manufacturers have abandoned this technology already.
Also, the retrofit is not fiscally justifiable for the customer. Adding the cost of labor to the already high cost of the LED tube and you find it really hard to justify.
Since the big manufacturers aren't interested in 8' tubes yet, this opens the door for all the little garage shops to make them and try to sell them....and with them, you never know what you're gonna get.
CD

 

[jives]

My dilemma has been to try and get the most lumens per dollar. I'd like 90-100 lumens per sq. ft for my new 1350 sq ft garage, with a vaulted ceiling that goes from 14-21' high. Fixtures placed at about 16' and 20'. T540 seem the best lighting choice, but that would mean to get 90 lu/sq ft, I would need 12 2-lamp fixtures (4 ft fixtures putting out 10K lumens per fixture). With bulbs we are looking at about $100 per fixture, for a total of $1200. With some patience and looking around I could probably get that down to about $800.

But, I'm hesitant to buy new T5HO fixtures. My sense is that in 5 years the T5s will be obsolete compared to LEDs. If I had used/cheap fixtures that could be easily retrofit to LEDs, that makes sense to me in the long run. On the other hand, we've really go no idea what an LED fixture or technology will be like in 5 years.

My default setting is that if I can get really cheap fixtures that work with existing T8 tubes, that I go for it, be patient with mediocre lighting, and then replace as LED becomes affordable.

 

[LifeLongWNYer]

be patient with mediocre lighting, and then replace as LED becomes affordable.

There is no reason to put up with mediocre lighting. First figure out what you are doing in there, and how much light you need. If you know how far your work is from where the lights will be, it isn't hard to calculate what you need in the way of fixtures to give you good light.

There is a ton of threads on this site with advice and actual installations. Some have links to calculators, and impartial reviews.



JBP


.

 

[jives]

There is no reason to put up with mediocre lighting.
.

Unfortunately, there is. I've read just about everything I can on this board and elsewhere about lighting and have a pretty good idea of what I need. What I need is about 24 T5HO lamps (12 fixtures) or about 40-44 T8 lamps in 10-12 fixtures. New fixtures with wireguards or plastic diffusers (wraps) and lamps will will run about $100 each. . . so we are looking at $1200 for new. I could get it down to perhaps $800.

That is a lot of money, and seeing as though the concrete estimate is now about $2200 more (additional gravel and grading and steel mesh and labor as we speak), my electrical budget has been decimated. My goal is to get cheap used lights that can either be replaced or retrofitted at a later date. Hence, my original post.

 

[B&H]

Several. Obviously, money is one of them. As the LED industry sits today, there are other lamp types that are much higher on the "to do" list than 8' tubes. The other items that need to be addressed first, like 4 pin CFL lamps, T5HO lamps and others, will be much bigger money makers that the big manufacturers are going after.
Safety is another reason. There are real safety concerns with ballast bypass tubes and they are proving to be kind of sticky. Large manufacturers want no part of a lawsuit from an injured party. Depending on the wiring schematic, the lamp pins can be energized when only one end is inserted in the socket. Not cool. Also, at 277v, if someone was to put a fluorescent tube back into the socket, you have a real problem on your hands. The name brand manufacturers have abandoned this technology already.
Also, the retrofit is not fiscally justifiable for the customer. Adding the cost of labor to the already high cost of the LED tube and you find it really hard to justify.
Since the big manufacturers aren't interested in 8' tubes yet, this opens the door for all the little garage shops to make them and try to sell them....and with them, you never know what you're gonna get.
CD

Going to have to call BS on most of that. The lawsuit part is hilarious! Take a look around your home or garage and tell me what you see? Almost everything man makes can be dangerous if not used or installed correctly. Nothing different with these 8' LED tubes.

I did an 8' T12HO conversion to 8' LED tubes from an online supplier in my auto repair shop. 22 bulbs I think. Couldn't be easier and couldn't be happier! Didn't even turn the power off. The bulbs are most certainly manufactured in China, have 3 certifications including UL and CE, and have been absolutely trouble free while saving considerable electricity. We're they expensive - yes. Were they easy to install - yes. Did they save considerable labor from having to change fixtures - yes. The payback will be approximately 2 years when adding in T12HO fluorescent maintenance, and then they will start saving me money. Gone is the buzzing, flickering, warming up, etc.

If I didn't own a business that the lights were on 80-90 hours a week, LED probably wouldn't be my first choice. At this point, for an occasional-use home shop or garage, T8's or T5HO's would be a better choice.

 

[B&H]

Hi all:
I think I can get a good score (~ $5 per fixture, I need 10-12 fixtures depending on exactly what they are) on some 8' fluorescent T8 tube fixtures. These fixtures have tandem 8' tubes, not separate sections of 4' tubes. I'm not sure if the fixtures have single pin sockets or bi-pin sockets. They are out of a store, so I need to make sure that they are 120V. I can't take a look at them for another day or so

If they are suitable for residential lighting, I would consider swapping in 8' LED tubes, such as the ones here:

http://www.eledlights.com/led-lamps...t-ultra-high-lumen-led-tube.html#.VUDKqJNKXOs

At about $64 per tube, that is nearly $130 per fixture for 10,400 lumens. These tubes bypass the ballast, so if the ballasts are at the end of their lifespan, then this may be a solid choice. These will be mounted from 16-20 feet high in my vaulted ceiling garage. New T8 fluorescent bulbs with about the same lumen output and color are $10-15 per bulb. A whole lot better value, that is, unless the ballasts are shot.

My question is, I've seen a lot of discussion of tubes, including LED replacements, but no comments on 8' tubes or the single pin sockets. These sockets seem easier to work with if LEDs are used and the ballasts bypassed, as there is not shunted vs. non-shunted issues to deal with in rewiring.

So, comments on 8' tubes? The good, the bad, the ugly? Experience with 8' LEDs, especially?

I'm not sure I've seen 8' T8 bulbs. LEDlight.com is where I sourced my 8' T12 led tubes from. They have both types of pin set-ups. Like I said, it's hard to justify the expense of LED currently in an occasional-use deal. I see you are also in CNY, and if you're interested you can stop by my auto repair shop in Baldwinsville and see all sorts of different LED lighting - T8 direct fit in both 3500 and 4000, T12s in 4000, BR30s, wall packs, etc. I also haven't gotten around to updating the T5HOs yet, and they are next to T8 LED retros for a direct comparison.

How high are your ceilings?

 

[jives]

How high are your ceilings?

I'm just outside of Ithaca. . . get up to Baldwinsville once every fall for the big B-ville high school cross country track meet. Nice place, I like the village area around the bridge.

My ceilings are vaulted with scissor trusses. 14' sidewalls then peak at about 22". Lights, if surface mounted and placed perpendicular to the slope of the ceiling, should be placed at about 17" and 21". A foot or so lower if hung.

Assuming the fixtures -- which I look at today -- are in reasonable shape and are 120V, it makes sense to get them and put in new 8' T8 bulbs, making for about 10,000 lumens per fixture. I can live with that, but my concern is the longevity of the technology and the maintenance on lights up so high. I think that replacing ballasts makes little sense when most LEDs are made to bypass the ballast. So, my real concern for 8' lamps is if they be upgradeable to LED at a reasonable cost within the next 3 years or so.

 

[cybrdyke]

Going to have to call BS on most of that. The lawsuit part is hilarious! Take a look around your home or garage and tell me what you see? Almost everything man makes can be dangerous if not used or installed correctly. Nothing different with these 8' LED tubes.

I did an 8' T12HO conversion to 8' LED tubes from an online supplier in my auto repair shop. 22 bulbs I think. Couldn't be easier and couldn't be happier! Didn't even turn the power off. The bulbs are most certainly manufactured in China, have 3 certifications including UL and CE, and have been absolutely trouble free while saving considerable electricity. We're they expensive - yes. Were they easy to install - yes. Did they save considerable labor from having to change fixtures - yes. The payback will be approximately 2 years when adding in T12HO fluorescent maintenance, and then they will start saving me money. Gone is the buzzing, flickering, warming up, etc.

If I didn't own a business that the lights were on 80-90 hours a week, LED probably wouldn't be my first choice. At this point, for an occasional-use home shop or garage, T8's or T5HO's would be a better choice.

There's not a dollop of BS in my post. I'm glad that you are happy with your lights. It's not the way that I would have done it, but if you're happy, that's all that matters.
Im involved in LED lighting... all day, every day. You'd have to be real sick to think there's something "hilarious" about a maintenance worker having a fluorescent tube burst in his face while he's installing it.
If you think I"m BS'ing you, then how 'bout you explain to the forum what this is:


CD

 

[padstack]

There's not a dollop of BS in my post. I'm glad that you are happy with your lights. It's not the way that I would have done it, but if you're happy, that's all that matters.
Im involved in LED lighting... all day, every day. You'd have to be real sick to think there's something "hilarious" about a maintenance worker having a fluorescent tube burst in his face while he's installing it.
If you think I"m BS'ing you, then how 'bout you explain to the forum what this is:


CD

How exactly has a maintenance worker had a tube blow up in his face? Based on videos like

I'm not sure I buy it, if this is what you are referring to. I've seen this demo done in person and never seen anything more than a flash. Sounds like scare tactics from someone with a vested interest in selling fluorescent tubes.

And if you're using an LED lamp and bypassing the ballast (i.e. running off of line voltage), why would you ever buy a bulb that passes current through the tube?

I believe the photos you show are older style LED lamps that have switches on one end to cut the current until it's locked in place. Again, if that's the case I don't see why you would buy them when there are a plethora of options out there that are single ended. I can plug the input end into the powered end on mine and put my finger across the pins on the other side. Nothing happens.

 

[padstack]

Hi all:
I think I can get a good score (~ $5 per fixture, I need 10-12 fixtures depending on exactly what they are) on some 8' fluorescent T8 tube fixtures. These fixtures have tandem 8' tubes, not separate sections of 4' tubes. I'm not sure if the fixtures have single pin sockets or bi-pin sockets. They are out of a store, so I need to make sure that they are 120V. I can't take a look at them for another day or so

If they are suitable for residential lighting, I would consider swapping in 8' LED tubes, such as the ones here:

http://www.eledlights.com/led-lamps...t-ultra-high-lumen-led-tube.html#.VUDKqJNKXOs

At about $64 per tube, that is nearly $130 per fixture for 10,400 lumens. These tubes bypass the ballast, so if the ballasts are at the end of their lifespan, then this may be a solid choice. These will be mounted from 16-20 feet high in my vaulted ceiling garage. New T8 fluorescent bulbs with about the same lumen output and color are $10-15 per bulb. A whole lot better value, that is, unless the ballasts are shot.

My question is, I've seen a lot of discussion of tubes, including LED replacements, but no comments on 8' tubes or the single pin sockets. These sockets seem easier to work with if LEDs are used and the ballasts bypassed, as there is not shunted vs. non-shunted issues to deal with in rewiring.

So, comments on 8' tubes? The good, the bad, the ugly? Experience with 8' LEDs, especially?

Depending on the fixture, you can buy retrofit kits to make an 8' fixture take 2 4' bulbs. US Energy services (no, I do not work for them) part number KSS-UB08-WA-FLN will do this. Again, I've never needed one, but i know people who have used them. I believe it depends on your fixture. I think they're $20 or less. If they're T8's, I would guess they are most likely bi-pin. Switching tombstones out is cheap though.

Be careful only looking at lumen rating. I would be more concerned with ft candles at your work surface. Fluorescent will almost always give more lumens, but LED is directional and will provide ample light to where it's needed.

As for who to use, I can't say there. I got some LED bulbs cheap from a friend who is in lighting, but they don't really sell to consumers so I couldn't help you regardless. I would look for a 10 yr warranty and would stay away from all-plastic lamps as they are known to sag over time as well.

In all honesty, I don't think LED is necessary for the typical homeowner (at least with tubes). If you aren't using them at least 8-10 hrs a day, I don't see you paying them off until they get into the sub $10 range for a 4' bulb with a wattage of around 10 watts. That's a tall order right now.

 

[cybrdyke]

I'll try to answer your questions in red, below....

How exactly has a maintenance worker had a tube blow up in his face? Based on videos like

I'm not sure I buy it, if this is what you are referring to. I've seen this demo done in person and never seen anything more than a flash.The video is using 120 volts. The effects are much more severe at 277 volts, which is what the bulk of commercial lighting is. Sounds like scare tactics from someone with a vested interest in selling fluorescent tubes. Actually, I use more LED than fluorescent and am a big fan of LED tubes. They each have their place.

And if you're using an LED lamp and bypassing the ballast (i.e. running off of line voltage), why would you ever buy a bulb that passes current through the tube?You wouldn't. BUT...when people do stupid things, bad stuff happens. When someone gets hurt, and files a workman's comp claim, lawyers get involved.

I believe the photos you show are older style LED lamps that have switches on one end to cut the current until it's locked in place. Again, if that's the case I don't see why you would buy them when there are a plethora of options out there that are single ended. Nope, not old. Both versions are commercially available. There are pros and cons to both. It doesn't really matter much at this point because the industry is trending toward the ballast-ready version anyway and that will eliminate all the issues. I can plug the input end into the powered end on mine and put my finger across the pins on the other side. Nothing happens.That's as it should be. But what happens when you put it in backwards?

Here is a video of a single ended tube at 277v installed backwards:


and here's the result (sorry, bad pic)



Here is a video of a glass fluorescent tube installed in a socket that was wired for a ballast bypass tube:



And here is the result:


Notice how the pins are welded into the socket:


I was asked a question..."Why dont the large manufacturers make an 8' LED tube?" I'm trying to give the answer to the forum. I use all types of lighting in my work, mostly LED, but also fluorescent and HID. I'm not trying to scare anyone off or advocate one way or the other...I'm just presenting some information.

Here's my take on the two different ballast bypass tube types.
Single ended power:
To retrofit from T8 lamps, you need to replace the sockets in most cases. There are times when this can be a pain in the **** and there are certain types of fixtures where sockets are hard to find....like in really old fixtures.
In 277v applications, if an unknowing person was to try to fit a fluorescent tube into a socket, bad things can happen. If a mistake is made and the wrong end of an LED tube is put into the socket, bad things can happen.
Double ended power:
To retrofit from T8 lamps, you can use whichever sockets you have. You have to be careful when installing this type of LED tube that when you put the pins in one socket, it's possible that the opposite pins are energized. Inevitably, when trying to install a tube in a socket, the pins are accidentally touched against the fixture chassis. If those pins are hot with 277v, this can energize the whole chassis.

The mistakes in these photos and videos happen alot. The people that make them aren't necessarily stupid people...they just dont have any knowledge of what they're dealing with when changing lamps. Call them stupid if you want to, but they're out there.

 

[padstack]

I'll try to answer your questions in red, below....



Here is a video of a single ended tube at 277v installed backwards:


and here's the result (sorry, bad pic)



Here is a video of a glass fluorescent tube installed in a socket that was wired for a ballast bypass tube:



And here is the result:


Notice how the pins are welded into the socket:


I was asked a question..."Why dont the large manufacturers make an 8' LED tube?" I'm trying to give the answer to the forum. I use all types of lighting in my work, mostly LED, but also fluorescent and HID. I'm not trying to scare anyone off or advocate one way or the other...I'm just presenting some information.

Here's my take on the two different ballast bypass tube types.
Single ended power:
To retrofit from T8 lamps, you need to replace the sockets in most cases. There are times when this can be a pain in the **** and there are certain types of fixtures where sockets are hard to find....like in really old fixtures.
In 277v applications, if an unknowing person was to try to fit a fluorescent tube into a socket, bad things can happen. If a mistake is made and the wrong end of an LED tube is put into the socket, bad things can happen.
Double ended power:
To retrofit from T8 lamps, you can use whichever sockets you have. You have to be careful when installing this type of LED tube that when you put the pins in one socket, it's possible that the opposite pins are energized. Inevitably, when trying to install a tube in a socket, the pins are accidentally touched against the fixture chassis. If those pins are hot with 277v, this can energize the whole chassis.

The mistakes in these photos and videos happen alot. The people that make them aren't necessarily stupid people...they just dont have any knowledge of what they're dealing with when changing lamps. Call them stupid if you want to, but they're out there.

Fair enough. I appreciate the education on 277VAC (and no, that isn't sarcasm).

As I mentioned, I'm not an installer or anything of that nature. I'm going by what I've read used (which is obviously more limited that you).

FWIW, as far as putting the ones I have installed (LED - single ended power) in backwards, nothing happens. That end is completely isolated. I checked them before I installed b/c I'm not a pro and figured I'd inevitably screw something up and didn't want any problems. I would chalk that problem to inferior product (not that it will stop people from buying **** products...).

As far as really old fixtures go, I always figured most of the real old ones were T12, and didn't most of those have magnetic ballasts? Don't most of the magnetics have non-shunted tombstones?

 

[cybrdyke]

FWIW, as far as putting the ones I have installed (LED - single ended power) in backwards, nothing happens. That end is completely isolated. .

As far as really old fixtures go, I always figured most of the real old ones were T12, and didn't most of those have magnetic ballasts? Don't most of the magnetics have non-shunted tombstones?

Padstack,
It's good to hear that your tubes are dead-ended on the opposite end. That means that they're of better quality. The ones that pop are usually counterfiet or non-UL, or fake UL or some other wacked out thing.

Yes, the old magnetic stuff usually had non-shunted sockets. This makes them easier to retrofit with ballast bypass tubes.

The socket issue is a nightmare for people that dont understand them. Imagine this scenario....
You have T8 lamps that you want to change to LED tubes. Your LED tubes require non-shunted sockets, but only on one end. You have 1000 fixtures to do in your building and you're the lowest bidder. So you only change the sockets on one end of the fixture to non-shunted and leave the sockets on the other end as they were...shunted. After all, why bother with them if they are only there to hold the lamp in.?
Now imagine the look on the face of Bubba the janitor when he is asked to replace a lamp in that fixture and he looks up and sees a ballast that is apparently disconnected from power but still connected to 4 sockets and then he sees 4 other sockets that are hot-wired like he's never seen before and those 4 sockets are different from the other 4 sockets.....Bubba's head will explode.

Anyway....most of this stuff refers to 4' tubes, not 8' tubes like the OP has asked about.

 

[B&H]

CD,

My LED 8' tubes from the source I listed are also dead on one end and UL listed. Look, people make mistakes working with electricity, not just DIYers but professionals also. Don't twist my words. You can't stupid-proof every last damn thing out there. I agree about the scare tactics - mistakes happen and most are avoidable. I guess we can all go hide in the basement corner to avoid all risk.

If someone on here wants to do a lighting upgrade or tackle an electrical, plumbing, automotive, whatever project, then they need to do their own research to see if they are comfortable in doing it. They will assume the risk. If people are using products that are non-certified junk, then buyer beware.

I wished I could have had someone in the trade do the LED lighting upgrade project at my shop. I had T12HO ballasts and bulbs crapping out on a regular basis. I called 3 local "big name" lighting contractors and and even the local power company because of their lighting program. Couldn't get any of the contractors to show up, and the power company didn't have LED in their template and couldn't tell me when they would. I had a stack of cash ready to dedicate to the project, got pissed, researched and did it myself. 8 T5HOs fixtures and one parking lot shoebox are left. Is it perfect? Probably not in everyone's eyes but we like it a lot.

 

[jives]

Well, to finish up this thread, it is now a moot point because the fixtures were so ratty I did not want them, and no provisions for wireguards. They were single pin sockets, but the sockets were beginning to corrode. They would not be worth upgrading in a few years.