So I've started on my new shop and I'm looking at my electrical service options. I believe I want to go with the 400a (actually 320a) service to a meter panel by the pole (they call it a farm panel) and feed 200a to the house and 200a to the shop. But here is my question. I have a diagram for the meter panel from the electric company. It shows a 400a meter base that feeds into 2 200amp disconnect panels. I want the breaker panels at the buildings. So my question is what am I actually looking for to mount on the "farm panel" with the meter base? Just a regular safety disconnect? I'll include a picture of thier diagram.
400a panel questions
- Thread starter 370
- Start date
sberry
Banned
You can put a disconnect there, might even put a panel for feed thru lugs to have some local spaces.
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
If disconnects, they be fusible and marked suitable for use as service equipment
That's not a bad idea. I was wondering if I could do that. So I should be able to buy a disconnect box that will also have a couple breaker spaces so I can run exterior plugs for the yard? That would be perfect
So it has to be a fused disconnect?
So this should be perfect then. At least for the house side it's got feed thru lugs, 8 spaces for circuit breakers, it's designed for exterior use and also marked suitable for service equipment.
Your friend has shared a link to a Home Depot product they think you would be interested in seeing:
Square D QO 200 Amp 8-Space 16-Circuit Outdoor Main Breaker Load Center with Feed-Thru Lug and Cover
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-...d-Thru-Lug-and-Cover-QO1816M200FTRB/202353310
Your friend has shared a link to a Home Depot product they think you would be interested in seeing:
Square D QO 200 Amp 8-Space 16-Circuit Outdoor Main Breaker Load Center with Feed-Thru Lug and Cover
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-...d-Thru-Lug-and-Cover-QO1816M200FTRB/202353310
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
What about a enclosed circuit breaker?
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
Sorry. I was wrong about all service rated disconnect being fusible.
That would be the absolute best form of disconnect
That would be the absolute best form of disconnect
mrcole
Well-known member
I did this for the detached garage I am about to finish - upgraded service to house to 400A. New meter base, 200A panel in house, 200A disconnect feeding 200A panel in garage. I can post a pic of what it looks like if that helps.
sberry
Banned
I own 3 or 4 of those, QO. Depending on how much stuff I intended on having might be tempted to go Homeline due to cost. Its mind over matter though. It takes a little pain out of overkill, doesn't cost much to put it on another circuit.
Seems I bought a box of HOM a while back was 33$. I shop around a little and get customers want me to go right down to the local store and buy, fine by me so I notice a little. Seems one local was 19$ for a DBL QO and one 22 maybe. My local lumber is about 20$. Has HOM singles for 5.50, QO 11 or 12 I think last box store I paid 9 for QO singles.
Outside for outside is the ultimate standard although the tools don't know. Having outside disconnect can be convenient.
Seems I bought a box of HOM a while back was 33$. I shop around a little and get customers want me to go right down to the local store and buy, fine by me so I notice a little. Seems one local was 19$ for a DBL QO and one 22 maybe. My local lumber is about 20$. Has HOM singles for 5.50, QO 11 or 12 I think last box store I paid 9 for QO singles.
Outside for outside is the ultimate standard although the tools don't know. Having outside disconnect can be convenient.
Last edited:
sberry
Banned
You know,,,,,,,,,,,,, or so,,, I have 400. Got 200 for inside and 200 for outside. If I had to do this again,,,, part of doing what I did is cause I can but would considder if I could reasonably do this from 200 with that panel. Soooooooo much easier to do aux power if the place is interdependent on utilities. All thru 1 main. I got a 3 hp well, I got 3 hp walk in, welders, plasma, air on demand, half a dozen fridges, no real AC and all gas, its rare I peak 100. 5 hp pressure washer and electric dryer, my comp is modest at 3 hp.
But I can say from seeing bars and taverns on fish fry that 200 would do mine easy and so much simpler. I ran all but the cooler from 100 for a year and 20 before that. Lotta **** on old service was absolute junk hooked up till I got old enough to do upgrade.
But I can say from seeing bars and taverns on fish fry that 200 would do mine easy and so much simpler. I ran all but the cooler from 100 for a year and 20 before that. Lotta **** on old service was absolute junk hooked up till I got old enough to do upgrade.
sberry
Banned
Just did a 200 in a new home, owner built with a little energy in mind and could have been hundred easy, he could live on 50 easy. All gas majors, 1/2 hp water, floor heat.
Its different if you need a shitload of AC, multiple units and during calcs got to remember not everything 30 uses 30, need to add up the load. I worked on AC a while back used 13 on a 30. LED has got rid of a lot of real world load and even cut and weld can use 1/2 of what it did but was so rather intermittent that it often didn't add to significant load factor. Air possibly the same way today with the advent of the battery tool.
Its different if you need a shitload of AC, multiple units and during calcs got to remember not everything 30 uses 30, need to add up the load. I worked on AC a while back used 13 on a 30. LED has got rid of a lot of real world load and even cut and weld can use 1/2 of what it did but was so rather intermittent that it often didn't add to significant load factor. Air possibly the same way today with the advent of the battery tool.
Last edited:
sberry
Banned
All that babble and what I was trying to say is been there and dun it, wouldn't put in 400 unless I absolutely had to.
I thought about doing 200amp service and splitting it 100/100 but with the shop I'm planning for the future.
As it would be now the plasma pulls 50amps peak and the air compressor kicking on while the plasma is arced is absolutely going to happen. The start up amperage on the compressor I would think is pretty substantial. Also the wife has been talking about a green house behind the shop. And my future plans are a CNC plasma table. If I was welding while the CNC table was running which would require the compressor to run I could definitely trip a 100amp breaker. And who knows how much power the heater for the green house the wife wants will eat up.
As it would be now the plasma pulls 50amps peak and the air compressor kicking on while the plasma is arced is absolutely going to happen. The start up amperage on the compressor I would think is pretty substantial. Also the wife has been talking about a green house behind the shop. And my future plans are a CNC plasma table. If I was welding while the CNC table was running which would require the compressor to run I could definitely trip a 100amp breaker. And who knows how much power the heater for the green house the wife wants will eat up.
sberry
Banned
If you have use then you do, its an easy thing to over estimate. There is feed thru to use on the shop and a guy could go as big as 125 on the house feed.
A 50 class plasma normally pulls closer to 40 than 50, same for a 250 mig and a DC buzzer. The 5 hp comp is 23 run, give or take and its highly likely the plas and the welder wont run continuous and even bet money it wouldn't all trip up a 100.
I have ran a lot from 100, many said it couldn't be done and it was never an issue and as I mention a couple taverns I was involved in really baked on a 200 wayyyyyyyyyyyyy beyond home brew 1 or 2 guy shop ever could no matter how much **** they had.
Bunch of 50A cooking stuff, 4 fryers, a broaster, AC, coffee pots, lights, 2 coolers, fridges. Couple microwaves. We finally upgraded to 400 and put another 150 panel on to take some off the main, it was on a brown south wall,, summer heat. The loads would be like 5 guys with welders, grinders, lights and 2 air comps, probably more to trip it up, only time it was a problem was a spot about 3 hrs hot summer nights.
A 50 class plasma normally pulls closer to 40 than 50, same for a 250 mig and a DC buzzer. The 5 hp comp is 23 run, give or take and its highly likely the plas and the welder wont run continuous and even bet money it wouldn't all trip up a 100.
I have ran a lot from 100, many said it couldn't be done and it was never an issue and as I mention a couple taverns I was involved in really baked on a 200 wayyyyyyyyyyyyy beyond home brew 1 or 2 guy shop ever could no matter how much **** they had.
Bunch of 50A cooking stuff, 4 fryers, a broaster, AC, coffee pots, lights, 2 coolers, fridges. Couple microwaves. We finally upgraded to 400 and put another 150 panel on to take some off the main, it was on a brown south wall,, summer heat. The loads would be like 5 guys with welders, grinders, lights and 2 air comps, probably more to trip it up, only time it was a problem was a spot about 3 hrs hot summer nights.
sberry
Banned
I remember it had 3 cooking hood blowers, at least 1/2 hp a piece, seems they might have been 3/4 and some massive make up air unit some code type thought we needed. They would burn the fryers wide open and the broader too. I never put a meter on it, wish I would have.
Only other places I have seen with a true overload was old 60 and they just kept adding electric appliances, water heater, dryer, cooking, microwave, 3 kids.
My Bud had garage he worked in for 30 yrs, we put 2 alum to it on a 60, must have wired 25 garages with those,,,, never had a trip call, a couple had 5 hp comps, the bud had one was 28A. , air conditioning 20, **** lights,
I got 400, has a 15kva ****** feeding it, never a blink. Biggest single load I ever put on it is a 300 synch, about 65 peak and I rarely use it. If you have any major gas appliance in the house peak is 65 or 70 with microwave, water heater and dryer on. If you are all gas 30 will run it, 40 with modest air, tops, all very liberal estimates at that.
It might be worth a real load calc here vs a wag.
Only other places I have seen with a true overload was old 60 and they just kept adding electric appliances, water heater, dryer, cooking, microwave, 3 kids.
My Bud had garage he worked in for 30 yrs, we put 2 alum to it on a 60, must have wired 25 garages with those,,,, never had a trip call, a couple had 5 hp comps, the bud had one was 28A. , air conditioning 20, **** lights,
I got 400, has a 15kva ****** feeding it, never a blink. Biggest single load I ever put on it is a 300 synch, about 65 peak and I rarely use it. If you have any major gas appliance in the house peak is 65 or 70 with microwave, water heater and dryer on. If you are all gas 30 will run it, 40 with modest air, tops, all very liberal estimates at that.
It might be worth a real load calc here vs a wag.
Last edited:
Terry D
Well-known member
The diagram looks like it is using (2) 200 amp disconnects at the pole. Like already said, use enclosed circuit breakers to feed 200 amps to the house and 200 amps to the shop. These panels would be sub panels and need 4 wires ran to each of them
sberry
Banned
A calc gives a swag.
I'm already set up for the 400amp upgrade with the elect company. They have already dropped off tht 400amp meter base. So I'll have more than I'll ever need at the house, and enough power for whatever I end up with running. In the shop and the wife's eventual green house
Diesel Dan
Well-known member
I did the 400A main with two 200A disconnects as well, under ground feed, pedestal mounted.
Living quarters on 200A and shop on 200A.
42 slot SquareD QO panels. House is almost full.
8 slots just for water heaters.
4 slots for A/C
2 for surge breakers...fills up fast.
Living quarters on 200A and shop on 200A.
42 slot SquareD QO panels. House is almost full.
8 slots just for water heaters.
4 slots for A/C
2 for surge breakers...fills up fast.
i have a 400amp service and 200 amp panels in both the shop and house wired as main panels.
There are a couple things to remember.
If you put a disconnect or breaker at the meter base this becomes your main panel and you have to run 4 wires to each panel and wire them as sub panels and drive ground rods at your meter base. if you all ready have a 200 amp panel in your home you may have to rewire it to separate the neutrals and grounds.
What i did was use a dual lug 400amp meter base and ran 3 wire to the house and shop and ran both as 200amp main panels. The shop is detached. The catch is there can not be any breaker or disconnect between the meter base and the panel.
Local codes may vary but there is no requirement to fuse the wire between the meter base and a main panel. Think about it with a single panel it is common to have a straight feed from the meter base to the main panel with no breaker. The main panel breaker is the fuse to protect the wire.
So you can have a dual lug 400 amp meter base feeding both the house and shop with 3 wires each (no ground) they are wired like 2 independent main panels. If you want more details let me know i can draw it up.
There are a couple things to remember.
If you put a disconnect or breaker at the meter base this becomes your main panel and you have to run 4 wires to each panel and wire them as sub panels and drive ground rods at your meter base. if you all ready have a 200 amp panel in your home you may have to rewire it to separate the neutrals and grounds.
What i did was use a dual lug 400amp meter base and ran 3 wire to the house and shop and ran both as 200amp main panels. The shop is detached. The catch is there can not be any breaker or disconnect between the meter base and the panel.
Local codes may vary but there is no requirement to fuse the wire between the meter base and a main panel. Think about it with a single panel it is common to have a straight feed from the meter base to the main panel with no breaker. The main panel breaker is the fuse to protect the wire.
So you can have a dual lug 400 amp meter base feeding both the house and shop with 3 wires each (no ground) they are wired like 2 independent main panels. If you want more details let me know i can draw it up.
Diesel Dan
Well-known member
I was required to have disconnects even though one panel is only a ~20' run from the meter base. I've seen other homes in other states with the meter mounted on the side of the house but panel located 50' away with conductors in conduit and still need a disconnect at the meter base due to distance. My setup is what the POCO and inspector wanted so that's what I have.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
The requirement for disconnects and max length of unfused wire is governed by local AHJ. The nec has no max length limit for unfused wire off a meter.
Mountainman
Member
I am about to replace my 200 amp meter base with a 400 amp meter base with two disconnects. One for the house and one for the shop. Can you post the photos of what you did and how you wired them? Thanks!
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
How many breakers you have doesn't matter. You could use a 40 space panel on 60a service.
With that much electric heat and a/c, a large service makes sense though.
nsula_country
Well-known member
I installed a 400 (320) when be built our all electric house. 2, 27kw tankless was what pushed me above a 200 amp can. In reality only 1 water heater is needed. Hindsight.
Power distribution looks like your image posted. 2, 200 amp feed thru panels with 200A main and 8 slots. Those slots come in handy. Each 200 amp feed thru feeds a 200A, 42 slot can in the house. One upstairs, one down stairs. Load is split between them.
CT
Power distribution looks like your image posted. 2, 200 amp feed thru panels with 200A main and 8 slots. Those slots come in handy. Each 200 amp feed thru feeds a 200A, 42 slot can in the house. One upstairs, one down stairs. Load is split between them.
CT