40x60 In The Hillside?

[tadams72]

40x60 In The Hillside (or other options)

GJ,

This may be a bit long so bear with me. We are a military family moving from CA to WA this summer. We were in a zero lot line home with 2 car garage and no driveway in CA. The house we are buying in WA is on 5 acres with 3 car garage and a long driveway. Certainly a huge step up but this is probably our retirement home so I am trying to plan for the dream shop. I have a budget of $40k to build it and I am hoping to break ground next summer. Now for the impediments. The lot has a bunch of elevation change, some wetlands, and a septic field I need to work around. Bottom line, there is not a single easy spot to place this shop. I've attached two photos decting the terrain and layout including proposed area for the shop. I also placed a possible location for a much smaller shop but prefer not to go that route if at all possible.

Primary location I am leaning toward is cutting into the hill below the house where I have an access road. Problems I see with this are tying into septic (biggy), back wall will probably be concrete retaining wall for the entire height (grade is pretty steep), and not much room for driveway/parking in front of the shop. I am not sure what my options are for the septic issue. I could probably put a pad across the road for some additional parking room. I want 14' walls and a loft. I plan to put a nice two post lift, section of an area for metal work and an area for wood work. The loft for storage would go across the back wall and will probably be steel. Down the road I'll add a converted forklift mast to move stuff up and down from the loft.

I am not sold on one type of building over another. However, I think with so much of the building possibly being concrete, I am probably looking at stick built for the remainder as the cost benefits of pole or steel no longer exist. Interested in comments on that. My construction experience is practically nil but I am very mechanically inclined and learn quick. My dad, who has built several houses and shops, will be there to help. Probably rent machinery to excavate, hire out the concrete work, and then erect the remaining structure ourselves to save as much money as possible. Septic would be hired out as well. Expecting engineering plans will be required so that will also be hired out.

So this is mainly to get opinions on how to proceed and get the conversation going. The Boss (wife) has given this project the go ahead so I've got to pounce while the approval is in place! Thanks in advance for the comments/help.

 

[LXCam]

Man that's a rough one. A retaining wall for that height will cost a small fortune with the required footings, let's alone water proofing costs. It might be cheaper to do a block foundation, infill it and build on top. Looking at the overview that might make egress in the shop easier from the house as well. But it's really hard to tell the topology on my phone. I take it there's no peak or ridge you could flat top and build?

 

[tadams72]

Man that's a rough one. A retaining wall for that height will cost a small fortune with the required footings, let's alone water proofing costs. It might be cheaper to do a block foundation, infill it and build on top. Looking at the overview that might make egress in the shop easier from the house as well. But it's really hard to tell the topology on my phone. I take it there's no peak or ridge you could flat top and build?

The problem is the wetlands and the septic. The wetlands buffer prevents using the flattest piece of the property adjacent to the driveway. That's why I am looking to that location as a possible spot for a smaller shop if I have to go that route. I've only walked the property once when I flew up for the home inspection so there may be some alternatives but that wetland and buffer are killing me. There is a slight chance I could level out the area just behind and to the left of the house and put a narrow driveway back to it between the wetlands and the septic. I'll explorer that more when I get back up there next month. If that works it may be my best option though the shop might have to be smaller there as well.

Welcome to Western Washington where the only thing flat is the water on a calm day.

 

[LXCam]

So I jumped on my puter. Hey!, what about building the "smaller" shop over your drive areas and re-routing the driveway?. Could that gain you the space you need. At least then construction of the road and retention of the hillside would not be as costly. And your driveway to the shop would be finished already.

 

[tadams72]

So I jumped on my puter. Hey!, what about building the "smaller" shop over your drive areas and re-routing the driveway?. Could that gain you the space you need. At least then construction of the road and retention of the hillside would not be as costly. And your driveway to the shop would be finished already.

Hadn't thought about that so I'll add it to the possibilities though admittedly less likely since I don't want to look out my front window to see another building. Would feel like we were back in SOCAL. Thanks for the suggestion though. This is the kind of input I need to flush out all the possibilities.

 

[LXCam]

After I posted that and looked again at your lay-out, I figured losing the view of the house from the road or visa versa would be probably kill that idear..haha

 

[pmiranda]

It might be cheaper to do a block foundation, infill it and build on top. Looking at the overview that might make egress in the shop easier from the house as well. But it's really hard to tell the topology on my phone. I take it there's no peak or ridge you could flat top and build?

I think the house is on the hilltop.
I imagine that it's still cheaper to build a retaining wall than to engineer a block foundation that will hold up the shop building on that steep slope.

Of course you can split the difference, with a partial retaining wall on one side, and a block foundation on the other... that way neither one is taking the whole load.
Might also be able to terrace down from the house to limit how much the retaining wall has to hold. Either way, I'd want a pro to design it and check on the dirt work and forms before concrete flows.

 

[larry_g]

I have a budget of $40k to build it and I am hoping to break ground next summer.

With your land layout, excavation, retaining walls, engineering, and other infrastructure costs I don't see much left for the building. Having lived on the hillside for years I know you will find a lot of issues to work around. Have you also investigated and really understand the wetland issues? The reality is that you don't own them and will be TOLD what you can do and not do on them. Tread lightly my friend.

lg
no neat sigline

 

[tadams72]

With your land layout, excavation, retaining walls, engineering, and other infrastructure costs I don't see much left for the building. Having lived on the hillside for years I know you will find a lot of issues to work around. Have you also investigated and really understand the wetland issues? The reality is that you don't own them and will be TOLD what you can do and not do on them. Tread lightly my friend.

lg
no neat sigline

Yeah that is the concern. I am treating the wetlands as though I don't own it even though the county didn't have record of them at first look. There are some flags marking the buffer but I don't know if they were put there by the developer or the logging company that initially cleared the areas for building. There is a very slight chance I might yet be able to use the area from conversations with the county. I am not banking on it though. It is a little frustrating because we are at the top of a hill and these areas are nothing more than a slightly lower ravine than the surrounding area. There are no streams, lakes, ponds, etc. even remotely close to this property other than the inlet about 3/4 mile away. I will definitely look to confirm the wetlands issue though. Thanks.

 

[sands35]

Can you move the driveway for a bigger garage at the upper spot? (somebody already picked that one up... )

If your garage is at the lower spot, do you really need a septic hookup?

Likely something will need to be compromised given the % of the lot that is wetlands or septic.

Yes, spend some time on the phone with the local inspectors, you don't want to step wrong with dealing with wetlands.

A common retaining wall / building wall isn't trivial. There is some serious excavation and concrete work to make it strong enough. Likely need an engineering sign-off on the plans (location dependent).

 

[tadams72]

Can you move the driveway for a bigger garage at the upper spot?

If your garage is at the lower spot, do you really need a septic hookup?

Likely something will need to be compromised given the % of the lot that is wetlands or septic.

Yes, spend some time on the phone with the local inspectors, you don't want to step wrong with dealing with wetlands.

I could move the driveway but I don't want to be staring out my front window at a big building. Need the home to feel like a home.

As for septic, I suppose if it becomes an either/or I could do without but I really would like to have a small bathroom in the shop. If not at least a deep sink or running water. I'd assume that will still require a septic tie in unless I only have an exterior spigot?

Will certainly get engineer to design any retention wall of this magnitude regardless of local requirements. I am a fan of do it right the first time, especially when the investment is big and safety is concerned.

 

[larry_g]

Have you bought this property yet? I also remember a thread on here where some endangered frog has ******* a lot of building permits up there some where.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[tadams72]

Here is another possibility but I'd have to walk the area again when I get there in a couple weeks. Contour map seems to support this location on the bottom left across the road. Challenge here is not the tie in for water, power, septic will need to cross the road and back up the hill to the house.

 

[tadams72]

Have you bought this property yet? I also remember a thread on here where some endangered frog has ******* a lot of building permits up there some where.

lg
no neat sig line

Closing in two weeks. I've paid close attention to possible limitations. There are several other homes in this area that have shops, out buildings, etc. It's a challenge for sure but we are sold on the home, area, and community. Great commute for work and great school for the kids. Either way this is the spot.

 

[Bluedodge]

If I had five acres, I'd use as much as possible. It doesn't appear there is much "slope" to the left of your septic fields.

What about building there and looping your driveway around the reserve septic?

 

[pmiranda]

Kitsap Co. looks to have an extensive GIS database... I bet you could get a survey company to draw up an exact layout of officially where the wetlands are on a topographic map so you can see that and the slopes all in one drawing.
Or if you're good with draftsight or something like that, you could download the DWG files and put it together yourself, although somebody with local knowledge might know about stuff that isn't obvious to you and me.

http://kitsapgov.com/gis/SectionDownloads/Township.asp?township=k
http://www.kitsapgov.com/county/maplibrary.htm

I suspect the wetland area isn't as big as you have it sketched in since there's a road crossing it.

Good luck!

 

[Radix2]

Is the developer still involved in the neighborhood (or at least around )? If so, they probably have a better picture of how/why/what the rules for the wetland areas are than do the local permitting entities. It may well be that those marked areas were marked to preserve the views and character of the development and not as some kind of actually restricted land (or not).

The point is, developers are required to meet various criteria on the overall development plan and since it is difficult or impossible to regulate what people do with wildlife on small platted lots, the best way to handle the issue is by creating common areas to cover wildlife rules and not a hodgepodge of pieces of build-able lots.

All this may not apply to you, but I would have the talk with the developer if possible to see what the theory is for that development, who the supervising bodies are ( if any), and see what can be done to get your building to fit in.

 

[AZ Pete]

Could you pump the sewage up to your existing septic tank? It doesn't seem that there would be much volume generated by the shop sink and toilet.

 

[tadams72]

If I had five acres, I'd use as much as possible. It doesn't appear there is much "slope" to the left of your septic fields.

What about building there and looping your driveway around the reserve septic?

That was where I originally planned to place the shop until I got the title docs and a couple pages referred to a wetland area.

I might to loop the driveway regardless just to make getting in and out a little easier.

Kitsap Co. looks to have an extensive GIS database... I bet you could get a survey company to draw up an exact layout of officially where the wetlands are on a topographic map so you can see that and the slopes all in one drawing.
Or if you're good with draftsight or something like that, you could download the DWG files and put it together yourself, although somebody with local knowledge might know about stuff that isn't obvious to you and me.

http://kitsapgov.com/gis/SectionDownloads/Township.asp?township=k
http://www.kitsapgov.com/county/maplibrary.htm

I suspect the wetland area isn't as big as you have it sketched in since there's a road crossing it.

Good luck!

The county website is pretty good and I have used it a ton when I was shopping for a home. One of the things that had me excited about this property was the lack of wetlands on the parcel search. They don't show anywhere and a call to the county didn't initially show any wetlands either. After a couple emails back and forth they found one reference to possible wetlands in a document but all it did was refer to another document they did not have readily available.

I'll definitely pursue using the area marked wetlands if it turns out I can because it was a developer marked area. Also will involve an expert from the area to help with that determination.

As for the area, it's a rough sketch but I am attaching a photo of what I received in the title docs that show the area. I find it funny they were able to put a road in across the wetlands. Makes me think there is more wiggle room here than meets the eye.

Is the developer still involved in the neighborhood (or at least around )? If so, they probably have a better picture of how/why/what the rules for the wetland areas are than do the local permitting entities. It may well be that those marked areas were marked to preserve the views and character of the development and not as some kind of actually restricted land (or not).

The point is, developers are required to meet various criteria on the overall development plan and since it is difficult or impossible to regulate what people do with wildlife on small platted lots, the best way to handle the issue is by creating common areas to cover wildlife rules and not a hodgepodge of pieces of build-able lots.

All this may not apply to you, but I would have the talk with the developer if possible to see what the theory is for that development, who the supervising bodies are ( if any), and see what can be done to get your building to fit in.

That might be a possibility. I'll look into it but I thought I remember seeing this company had dried up. Worth a try though.

Could you pump the sewage up to your existing septic tank? It doesn't seem that there would be much volume generated by the shop sink and toilet.

I'd like to think that is an option. I've never had a septic system before so I'll have to get with a local company to discuss if it looks like the shop has to go down there.

Thanks for the discussion folks. Keep it coming. I'm here to learn and of course get that shop erected. The thought of having 5 acres but still building race cars in my 3 car garage is killing me.

 

[pmiranda]

Weird... the wetlands area is much smaller than the 15' construction setback... and what looks like a driveway that was never built.

 

[tadams72]

Weird... the wetlands area is much smaller than the 15' construction setback... and what looks like a driveway that was never built.

Yeah there are some peculiar things about that drawing. I don't understand why there is a 25 foot buffer and then another 15 foot setback. Another thing that makes no sense is how on the bottom end the buffer runs straight down despite the wetlands retreating to the left considerably.

The reason no driveway or house is this is from the original developers plans for approval I believe. Driveway and house are well after this was drawn up.


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[kwb]

You probably can swap the reserve area with where you have marked "smaller" shop. Reserve is just to verify that in event of septic failure you have another spot that will keep the property habitable. That should be a fairly short conversation with health department to verify.

In that location you could make for a pretty nice setup when you come into the area the house is and not have the house too far from the shop. Nice circular drive between house and shop, easy to maneuver all sorts of toys in tow with minimal backing required.

 

[pmiranda]

You probably can swap the reserve area with where you have marked "smaller" shop.

That's pretty clever, but isn't there a limit on how far the leach field can be from the tank? I'm assuming the current tank is between the main and reserve fields...

 

[Zeke]

You mentioned a few times you didn't want to look at a building out your front door. To me, then, it wouldn't matter what size it is. However, I have a friend that has a similar lot and the outbuilding is oriented with the short side facing the house. The side facing the drive has a nice elevation including 3 roll up doors and some architectural features. Not knowing the style of you house, you could do well by looking out to a good looking building.

That is unless you were going to put up a metal pole barn. In that case, hide that sucker.

 

[tadams72]

You probably can swap the reserve area with where you have marked "smaller" shop. Reserve is just to verify that in event of septic failure you have another spot that will keep the property habitable. That should be a fairly short conversation with health department to verify.

In that location you could make for a pretty nice setup when you come into the area the house is and not have the house too far from the shop. Nice circular drive between house and shop, easy to maneuver all sorts of toys in tow with minimal backing required.

If I can set it back far enough to the side of the house that might work. I don't want the shop taking away from the house and the openness. I'll have to do some measuring when I get up there. Thanks.

That's pretty clever, but isn't there a limit on how far the leach field can be from the tank? I'm assuming the current tank is between the main and reserve fields...

Current tank sits in front of the house and sort of in between the two fields. This could possibly work.

You seem like a nice guy but I'm not getting bare with you.

You mentioned a few times you didn't want to look at a building out your front door. To me, then, it wouldn't matter what size it is. However, I have a friend that has a similar lot and the outbuilding is oriented with the short side facing the house. The side facing the drive has a nice elevation including 3 roll up doors and some architectural features. Not knowing the style of you house, you could do well by looking out to a good looking building.

That is unless you were going to put up a metal pole barn. In that case, hide that sucker.

Thanks. I retracted my invitation.

Haven't settled on a style of building. If it were completely out of sight of the house I would worry much about asthetics. The more it encroaches on the house though, the more likely it will be stick built. Of course the cost of stick built in plain view might be a bargain compared to building into the hill below. I don't know though.

 

[pmiranda]

Doesn't matter how it's framed... as long as you use a nicer exterior finish on the side facing the house it'll look good. You can still save money on the interior and the exterior walls that face away.

 

[MagKarl]

You need to go down to the county office ASAP and find out exactly what your options are. Recently some friends of ours found out their 10 acre parcel in Olympia only had about 0.5 acre that was buildable due to an increase in wetland buffer setbacks, this after 6 month wait on a gopher survey. Their house dream was gone.

 

[My Old Tools]

Consider abandoning the septic fields and going to an aerobic system. Put the sprinkler heads where ever you want. That would free up a large area that appears to be on the same level as the house. Probably cost you $5000.

 

[larry_g]

You need to go down to the county office ASAP and find out exactly what your options are. Recently some friends of ours found out their 10 acre parcel in Olympia only had about 0.5 acre that was buildable due to an increase in wetland buffer setbacks, this after 6 month wait on a gopher survey. Their house dream was gone.

In a post above I mentioned a holdup because of frogs. I was mistaken it was gophers, the thread; http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=324150

lg
no neat sig line

 

[tadams72]

Doesn't matter how it's framed... as long as you use a nicer exterior finish on the side facing the house it'll look good. You can still save money on the interior and the exterior walls that face away.

Well if it is out front, it will have to look good from every exterior angle. Not so concerned about the interior as I can frame and finish that as I have extra time and money.

You need to go down to the county office ASAP and find out exactly what your options are. Recently some friends of ours found out their 10 acre parcel in Olympia only had about 0.5 acre that was buildable due to an increase in wetland buffer setbacks, this after 6 month wait on a gopher survey. Their house dream was gone.

I plan to pay them a visit once I get up there and settled. I dug through some more of title docs last night and found contact info for the builder and the surveyor so I plan to touch base with them as well.

Consider abandoning the septic fields and going to an aerobic system. Put the sprinkler heads where ever you want. That would free up a large area that appears to be on the same level as the house. Probably cost you $5000.

I'll have to look into that if the other options fail to work. I don't want to shut down a perfectly good septic system unless I have no other options.

In a post above I mentioned a holdup because of frogs. I was mistaken it was gophers, the thread; http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=324150

lg
no neat sig line

I think I am in the clear there. The county GIS site is pretty good listing these things and there is NO reference to wildlife issues whatsoever in anything I have seen.

I also think I narrowed down the wetlands designation some more. From my review of the title docs, state and county regulations, etc. it looks like these wetlands would be designated what they call a category IV which is the least restrictive. There are avenues to change the wetlands. The below definition of this category seems to leave options open for my shop which would be considerably smaller than the max limit. More research is required.

"4. Category IV Wetlands. Category IV wetlands are those regulated wetlands that score less than 30 points out of 100 on the wetlands ratings system. Activities affecting isolated, non-mosaic Category IV wetlands that are less than 7,500 square feet may be allowed provided that the wetlands report identifies the specific wetland function affected or at risk, and the proposed mitigation to replace the wetland function, on a per function basis."

Of course if this route is available I will no be looking at needing to backfill this low area vice digging into the hillside. The benefits though would be a much easier tie in to services, better location for the shop and the ability to tuck it into the trees more so it would not block the view of the house nor be visible from the road.