40x60x12 pole barn build questions

[wcp0611]

Just pulled a permit to start work on my first ever large build like this. Its a 40x60x12 pole barn that will be insulated and will have a 4" slab floor. Like all things you choose to do yourself with absolutely no prior experience, I have a few questions for you smarter people. I'm capable and have access to the equipment to do all of this as my boss owns a huge farm and I can take whatever I need to use. Because I'm me, this has to be built by me and not a contractor.

Get ready, this is a bit of a read.

I thought I was going to get away with just building the pole structure with the bottom bands somewhat close to the existing grade elevation, until my inspector required an elevation survey before breaking ground due to a height requirement planning put on the job due to a huge water hole about 100 ft from the site that I know doesn't ever fill up or overflow, but he, at his computer, didn't know or care. Thus, I got the elevation checked and marked, and it looks like my floor height is required to be about 16 inches higher than the current elevation of the land. So I've got to bring in enough fill to raise it the 16 inches. I've never done this though I'm fairly certain I can and will. I'm putting the poles down on 10' centers and then pouring the pad around that, then building the rest of the barn around that. At least, that is the easiest way for me to do it by myself/with my wife and brother's help.

Questions at this stage are:

1. I planned on just building the top soil up 12 inches, then a 4 inch layer of gravel and then the slab pour. I called a local topsoil company and he told me that besides being backed up with local commercial jobs that would keep him too busy for me until January, he wouldn't use topsoil if the end result is a slab on top. He would use crush run in its place and then install 4" of gravel then pour the slab. If I do it his preferred way, do I need to scalp the earth with a bobcat before I have the run hauled in and leveled or can I just have the run dump on the grass at the site and spread and level it on the grass? Also, does his way sound promising? I mean, if you use crush, is the 4" of gravel still necessary?

2. I'm planning on using a rental plate compactor. I've never compacted before, so I'm not sure how many times to do so on something like this. 2400 sq ft is big but manageable. Do I just compact it once and I'm good or will it take multiple times to get it down to where I need it to be for a slab pour?

3. As far as digging and setting the posts, do I dig and install them before laying out the crush run or do I do the run first, then compact it, then dig the two or three foot post holes and install them?

This is an ongoing build and I am a confessed newb to some of this so please be gentle to some of my seemingly dumb questions.
Thank guys.

 

[rburke65]

Welcome to Thr Garage Journal! Please update your profile with a location. All of the topsoil and grass will have to be removed down to the subsoil. I had an excavator prep my build site and he removed the top soil then brought in clay and built up my shop elevation, compacting as we went. Usually it's recommended to tamp or compact every 6" or so. You can install your base and then drill for the posts. Can I ask what you will be using the pole barn for? Will you be finishing the inside? Heat? Vapor barrier under concrete. Have a plan. Asks if ya don't know. He'll ask even if ya think ya know. Good luck.

 

[jkwilson]

Don't fill with dirt. It will not make a firm surface for concrete in your lifetime. Taking dirt out is the goal. Scrape the topsoil off in most parts of the world.

First, put up the building. Next, add crusher run to the floor to 4" below finished floor height. Finally, pour your concrete. The skirt boards act as forms everywhere but the doors and never have to be removed.

 

[wcp0611]

Welcome to Thr Garage Journal! Please update your profile with a location. All of the topsoil and grass will have to be removed down to the subsoil. I had an excavator prep my build site and he removed the top soil then brought in clay and built up my shop elevation, compacting as we went. Usually it's recommended to tamp or compact every 6" or so. You can install your base and then drill for the posts. Can I ask what you will be using the pole barn for? Will you be finishing the inside? Heat? Vapor barrier under concrete. Have a plan. Asks if ya don't know. He'll ask even if ya think ya know. Good luck.

Updated. I'm in middle TN. Just got off the phone with my inspector and he said to do it the same way you suggested at every six inches. It will be insulated, but probably not as finished as most. I will heat it and I'm putting a vapor barrier under the concrete. The inspector actually was very helpful this time so I'm thinking maybe he was having a bad day last week when I spoke with him.

 

[wcp0611]

Don't fill with dirt. It will not make a firm surface for concrete in your lifetime. Taking dirt out is the goal. Scrape the topsoil off in most parts of the world.

First, put up the building. Next, add crusher run to the floor to 4" below finished floor height. Finally, pour your concrete. The skirt boards act as forms everywhere but the doors and never have to be removed.

When finishing the concrete, do I still need to go back and round edge trowel the slab all the way around or just where the doors will be? I mean, is it just for looks or does it do something for the slab?

 

[rburke65]

If you are asking this question I hope you will consider hiring out the concrete finishing.

 

[matt_i]

Make sure you take out organic material, no matter how you fill. So this basically means get rid of grass and deep enough to get rid of all its roots.

I'd dig a test hole about 4 feet deep to see what's going on in your soil strata. If there's a rich layer of topsoil, I would want that scraped off.

I personally don't like crusher run (meaning with fines) as a fill unless you have a long time to compact it, water it, etc, to get all the fines settled. For a gravel road, ideal stuff. However, I'd rather use washed limestone that's basically set as soon as you compact it once. There are no fines to settle as time goes by, creating voids.

Also, while we are talking slab prep I am also a proponent of rebar. Lay the grid & tie it, slab will be there a long time.

 

[Radix2]

Make sure you take out organic material, no matter how you fill. So this basically means get rid of grass and deep enough to get rid of all its roots.

I'd dig a test hole about 4 feet deep to see what's going on in your soil strata. If there's a rich layer of topsoil, I would want that scraped off.

I personally don't like crusher run (meaning with fines) as a fill unless you have a long time to compact it, water it, etc, to get all the fines settled. For a gravel road, ideal stuff. However, I'd rather use washed limestone that's basically set as soon as you compact it once. There are no fines to settle as time goes by, creating voids.

Also, while we are talking slab prep I am also a proponent of rebar. Lay the grid & tie it, slab will be there a long time.

If there are no fines, the voids will be there from the get go... Not really buying your theory.

 

[Rocker4x4]

If you are asking this question I hope you will consider hiring out the concrete finishing.

Not trying to be mean but yes I agree, hire it out. will be money well spent/saved by time you rent finishing tools. To answer this question, where the doors will be, most guys put a tapered door sill into concrete when they pour it to keep water from running in. 3-4" or so wide at slight angle then finish with round corner.

 

[johnehr]

I had a 50x120 "addition" to an existing shop built last winter, but did the bulk of the ground work myself (helped to justify adding a Bobcat to the equipment collection). Also bought a plate compactor for the job so that I could work at my own pace.

Anyway, I placed, leveled, and compacted 8-12" of class 5 gravel in multiple lifts, with original topsoil previously scraped off. Wet it down as needed during the process, and when I was done and it dried out some, it seemed almost as hard as the eventual concrete. 5" of rebar and fiber-reinforced 4000psi concrete installed by an experienced crew over that base, and it really made the building a nice and functional space.

Not quite as DIY as your overall project, though.

 

[MagKarl]

I'm like johnehr just above, working at my own pace is justification to buy tools now and then. Building a barn in your spare time takes a whole lot longer than it should in my experience anyway. Borrowing and renting can add up. I buy most of my bigger stuff used off of craig's list with the justification that I can use for my job and sell for similar money and then it's free. Don't tell my wife that I never actually sell anything though.

In my opinion using a plate compactor is one of those jobs that is better done several times in small lifts than once or twice in larger lifts. I use crushed rock with fines and compact no more than about 3" at a time, watering each lift. Keep going over it and fine tuning till the grade is perfect.

 

[wcp0611]

Update at last. I've been so busy doing stuff I never really had time to take many pics or write it all down. My boss brought his skid steer over early March and removed the top soil for the shop. Its amazing how much dirt comes from 2400 sq ft of top soil only.





After that, he attached the auger and we dug some roughly measured holes. He was in a hurry and I was trying to mark things best I could. I would later have to dig out four or five of these holes as they were off center of where they needed to be. Once they were done and the lumber was delivered,

I got to work on raising the poles and bracing them. My wife and I got the first side up and the girts nailed in. Then the other side with the open 16 ft door space.




I only concreted in the corner posts at this time as I was afraid that the interiors might shift as it was pretty windy and I couldn't afford to have them set up if they moved any out of plumb. At this point, the wind and rain came. Spring at its best! The wind knocked down the side wall built that had the 16 ft door. We got out there in the pouring rain to try and stand it back up. We eventually got it, but it was completely out of whack and with the girts, it took me and four or five other guys to plumb and brace the 6x6's again. After that was fixed, they all got concrete as I can't let that happen again. When all was said and done on that side, we focused on raising the end posts. The side walls are 6x6x16 and easily managed by just me but the ends were 6x6x20 and they were waaay harder. I couldn't get the heighth I wanted out of the center pole so I nailed two 2x6x16 boards with 4 1/2" ringed pole barn nails to each side of it. This made it really, really hard to lift up into its hole. I dropped it the first try and broke one of the 16ft 2x6's. Got that board replaced and then me and my brother used a winch on the ball of my truck to attempt to raise it up. That seemed to work awesome until it got so high and then shifted over on the ground causing it to swing to the left about ten feet. We took safety precautions in case it did this sort of thing so it didn't come close to hurting anyone but it did brake another 16 ft board. The second attempt we made after that worked fine as we staked it at the ground so it couldn't shift or roll. Once that post was up and plumb we braced it and immediately poured concrete and attached all girts up six feet to ensure that it doesn't come back down.



This whole build is going slower than I had hoped but I am doing most of it myself so it shouldn't be surprising. I'm really enjoying building it. Hopefully I'll have more updates and pics in a few weeks when the trusses go up.

Speaking of trusses, let's share the adventure that was getting them. So I ordered them about a month ago and was told it would take two weeks to build then they'd call to schedule delivery. Three days of nonstop raining later, I'm out there trying to pump away some of the water that pooled up deep in all the holes and a flatbed shows up with the trusses in tow. The guy said he drove three hours to get to me and he needed to drop them and get on the road. This all caught me off guard and I was not ready for them. I agreed to take the delivery and he tried to get across the culvert I installed, but because of the layout of the narrow road, he couldn't make the turn into it. So he turned around and drove around the block to the street on the back of my property. He and I walked my property so he could gauge the level of wetness and mud and see if he was confident he could get in there to drop them. He thought he could. Big mistake on his end. He pulled off the road and drove straight for the shop site area. All was good until he slowed down and tried to turn it around so he could back the trailer closer to the site. When he started to make the turn, his flatbed sort of jacknifed the truck and he had absolutely no traction to keep moving. After two hours of him trying, it was determined he'd have to call out a tow truck. I was fine with whatever as I wasn't paying for it. When the tow truck got there, bit was the brightest flashing lights I've ever seen up close. It was one of those trucks that I'd imagine winch rolled over semi's back to right side up after wrecks. It was massive and just looked heavy. The tow truck stayed at the street and ran a cable about 170 ft into my yard and winched that truck out. He dropped the trusses on the way out, but they are probably 70 ft away from the site so I'll have to drag everyone of them over lift them up. As for lifting them, my boss is going to bring his skid steer over again to lift them high enough to attach to his scissor lift and we'll roll them into position via that. After headers, that's whats next. Hopefully all will be said and done by next weekend. I've attached some pics of progress.

Also, my mom is adorable. She spent the whole day cleaning up while my brother and I were building. Every time I'd put a hammer or speed square or anything else down she'd grab it and take it back to her "stow away" pile. I'd have to climb down the ladder, walk over and get it back out. She told me later that she really wanted to help but just couldn't with her bad knee so cleaning made her feel helpful. I was just happy she was there.

 

[Cuda416]

What ever happened to this? I'm about to build a similar building on the west side of San Antonio and would love to know the rest of the story.