5 Ton AC unit needs replacement

[Jsf721]

My brothers AC unit is 20 plus years old and he got a quote of 2000 to recharge with up to 10 lbs - 11 lbs of R22 which the service person said is a waste of money because the system is so empty there is obviously a leak (big) and it will leak out again, even if they found and fixed the leak you are at 4K for a double recharge into a 20 plus year old system. This zone runs the main part of the house, and he has a smaller unit for the upstairs.

He is getting quotes on a complete system, air handler, drain pad, lines , pump and condenser. Once quote for Rheem the other Trane. Our AC guy returned and went to Florida some years ago and nobody took over the business

Firstly any opinions on brands to stay away from between these 2?

Secondly, Anyone on Long Island in the business that wants a new customer, looking for a fair price and an excellent install and hopefully a solid no leak, no issue system.

Thanks

 

[fitter30]

Contractor is more important that the brand. Both are decent. There are federal, possibly state and the electric company.

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[reader2580]

I would check with Pipe Doctor Home Services (516) 360-2989 pipedoc.net if they serve his area of Long Island. There are apparently some big rebates for going with a heat pump in that area.

 

[jacob_coulter]

Where is it leaking from? Could be as simple as a schrader valve.

 

[Jeepster04]

I'd say he'll be in that over $10k. Parents just got an 18 seer 2 stage 5 ton Trane and it was $14k.... Pretty much insanity.

 

[P0234]

Definitely not the company that didn't even try to find the leak.

 

[Dakotadadv8]

It is about right Carrier furnace and central air 3 ton in 2002 for $5,000.

 

[gungatim]

I just had mine done last year. $240 to recharge, but compressor was worn out so they said they'd refund the $240 if I replaced the system. New setup was $4k, they acid clean the lineset so as to not replace that, but everything else is new. Apparently they can only be recharged once do to the EPA laws.

The new one is about 50% larger because the new refrigerants are much less efficient, so that included a new pad and relocation of the gas pressure regulator that was now too close to the unit.

 

[Aileron]

if its a BIG leak like they say, it should be easy to find.

 

[Aileron]

I just had mine done last year. $240 to recharge, but compressor was worn out so they said they'd refund the $240 if I replaced the system. New setup was $4k, they acid clean the lineset so as to not replace that, but everything else is new. Apparently they can only be recharged once do to the EPA laws.
.

I'd put money on it they missed diagnosed it and covered their *** by giving your 250 back. You can't just keep throwing gas in and watch it leak out it but you can recharge it more than once. It is a fixable piece of equipment.

 

[shoot summ]

I would get a second opinion on the system.

The owners of the house next door had a regular "maintenance contract", they were elderly and didn't live there. I was there one day when the Tech showed up for the maintenance. She immediately indicated the coil was cracked and they would need a new system. At the time they didn't need the AC so they said to let it ride. The system was 20-25 years old, the condenser had been replaced at some point. Fast forward to the next Tech visit, we were trying to clean up the house to sell, late spring, AC is on in the house and working fine. Different Tech shows up, doesn't go in the house, reminds us that the coil is cracked, takes his gauges out to the condenser. We are in the garage and he comes in with the pitch, no freon in the system, will cost $2K just to re-charge it, new system would be $10K and we can do payments. I asked him to step in the house so we could discuss. He continues to pitch and I ask him to feel the air coming out of the vents. It is ice cold, he starts waffling and back tracking and says he needs to go check it again as something is wrong. Comes back all flustered, tries to cover his tracks but just keeps digging the hole deeper. The contract was cancelled that day.

 

[gungatim]

I'd put money on it they missed diagnosed it and covered their *** by giving your 250 back. You can't just keep throwing gas in and watch it leak out it but you can recharge it more than once. It is a fixable piece of equipment.

No you can't. There is a law, the equipment goes on the EPA's list and they will get fined if the violate the refilling rule. It's kept track of federally. They give my money back because they vacuum out the old refrigerant and keep it to resell.

And the compressor was worn out. It still worked but took way too long to fill and ran too hot. 27 years is a long time for a compressor. The fan motor and bearings went out the year before. I was literally there watching the process and could tell right away the compressor was bad. And the solder on the A-Condenser are what leak over time. It's not like a car where you replace a hose, when the condensor goes with all those joints, you may as well start from scratch.

 

[reader2580]

It isn’t legal to resell or reuse used refrigerant. Recovered refrigerant can only be put back in the same system, or another system with the same owner. I’m sure scammers will reuse refrigerant.

I wouldn’t want used refrigerant unless there was some process to clean out any contaminants.

 

[4x4Pete]

The whole refrigerant recovery process is a scam. Here in Ontario it cost me around $2/lb to return recovered refrigerant, and I usually had to leave my date sensitive $300 cylinder for them to process it. Which I could get back if I spent the time making sure they emptied it, and scheduled a time to go back and get it. They processed my recovered refrigerant and sold it to the wholesalers who then sold it back to me. You end up paying more than once for the same refrigerant.
Another part of the scam is if a MTO (road safety police) pulls me over and I happen to have an out of date cylinder on my truck. I get a nice fine for illegally transporting refrigerant. Nice. This can and does happen easily as you can't cross contaminate a recovery cylinder, once it has had a certain refrigerant in it, it must only used with that refrigerant. Barely used out of date recovery tanks are easily mistaken for a newer one. Same thing applies for seldom used virgin or reclaimed (new) refrigerants you end up with a half full cylinder for years, the cylinder expires and it becomes illegal to transport. Then, you recover it into a new recovery cylinder to be road legal but be careful someone might think you're using used refrigerant in their system and charging them for it. I'm happy to be out of that trade.

 

[threewood]

No you can't. There is a law, the equipment goes on the EPA's list and they will get fined if the violate the refilling rule. It's kept track of federally. They give my money back because they vacuum out the old refrigerant and keep it to resell.

And the compressor was worn out. It still worked but took way too long to fill and ran too hot. 27 years is a long time for a compressor. The fan motor and bearings went out the year before. I was literally there watching the process and could tell right away the compressor was bad. And the solder on the A-Condenser are what leak over time. It's not like a car where you replace a hose, when the condensor goes with all those joints, you may as well start from scratch.

It's been a few since I took the 608 Cert but nothing needs reported to the EPA unless the system leaks over 125% of its charge in a calender year (10% in a 30 day period after a system is topped off) . And I thought leak repair was only mandatory on systems of 50lbs or more?

 

[loganb]

My father in law has a 3 ton going in next week for 6k in the Midwest. My 5 ton unit 7 years ago was 7k bucks so fully expect that is over 10k now. I am brand agnostic and more about the company and service for hvac. Prefer the smaller companies with the less fancy trucks whose repair techs aren't commissioned on the sales of new systems.

 

[bonneyman]

if its a BIG leak like they say, it should be easy to find.

Exactly! They simply do not want to do repair work, especially on "obsolete" R-22 units. Much bigger bucks obtainable with a new install.

 

[Aileron]

No you can't. There is a law, the equipment goes on the EPA's list and they will get fined if the violate the refilling rule. It's kept track of federally. They give my money back because they vacuum out the old refrigerant and keep it to resell.

And the compressor was worn out. It still worked but took way too long to fill and ran too hot. 27 years is a long time for a compressor. The fan motor and bearings went out the year before. I was literally there watching the process and could tell right away the compressor was bad. And the solder on the A-Condenser are what leak over time. It's not like a car where you replace a hose, when the condensor goes with all those joints, you may as well start from scratch.

Pure BS! No it doesnt go on any list. I was in the business for 40 years. The only way the epa would know is if the company was audited by the EPA on their refigerant usuage, they would want to know where all the refrigerant the company used went. Sorry but you fell for a bunch of BS along with the compressor story.

"They give my money back because they vacuum out the old refrigerant and keep it to resell."
Its illegal for them to resell it unless they can purify it and i almost quarantine a small ;l shop isnt going to have that equipment. we were a 200,000 million dollar a year commercial company and didn't have it. You could have kept it and used it yourself, i had many customers that kept theirs for their other equipment that still used it.

 

[jshillin]

Look into a heat pump that meets the tax credits. It's definitely over $10k though. I just replaced my upstairs unit, had a larger return added, new lineset, new thermostat, new drain pan and drain. I was between Amana and Daiken for the warranty and inverter setups. I ended up going with the Daiken FIT since it was a little less money and specs were really close on both.

 

[SVibs]

I was between Amana and Daiken for the warranty and inverter setups. I ended up going with the Daiken FIT since it was a little less money and specs were really close on both.

Daikin, Amana, and Goodman are all part of the Daikin group of companies so specs for the Goodman SD, Amana S, and Diakin FIT should be identical. Goodman is marketed as the budget/contractor end of the product line, Daikin in the middle and Amana marketed as an upper tier brand and units are priced accordingly. Although I haven't checked, I think warranties for all three brands are nearly identical as well.

 

[Jim greengo]

No you can't. There is a law, the equipment goes on the EPA's list and they will get fined if the violate the refilling rule. It's kept track of federally. They give my money back because they vacuum out the old refrigerant and keep it to resell.

And the compressor was worn out. It still worked but took way too long to fill and ran too hot. 27 years is a long time for a compressor. The fan motor and bearings went out the year before. I was literally there watching the process and could tell right away the compressor was bad. And the solder on the A-Condenser are what leak over time. It's not like a car where you replace a hose, when the condensor goes with all those joints, you may as well start from scratch.

News to me,I've never put an a/c on an epa lists.
I've serviced/repaired plenty of leaks in the last 30 plus years.

 

[nbpt100]

An HVAC guy charged me $500 last year to recharge my system with R22. I think it took 1.5 lbs It was $200 for the evaluation and labor. He said, evan if he found the leak the parts are not available for my 20 year old system. If the leak was in the copper he could fix it. but that was unlikely. I was lucky and it worked the entire summer. Replaced it this spring with a Rudd. Which is part of Rheem.

Consumer reports of a few years ago rates York and its sister brands at the bottom of the list. I have been told by a few that the installation is more important than the brand. They are all pretty close in quality. I read the York are more complicated to install, for some reasons that were not explained. Which may explain why they had the lowest owner satisfaction. The Rudd/Rheem was rated in the middle. I was offered either and went with the Rudd based on the CU piece.

Get a reliable, practical and responsible HVAC contractor. The most important thing you can do.

My HVAC guy said the high efficiency units are not worth installing in the North. Because the payback is not there. You only run it for 3 or 4 months of the year and certinly not every day during those 3 or 4 months.

Good Luck

 

[exmaxima1]

I've been told that after 20 years (or less) the soldered joints tend to leak. When I had my current a/c installed 23 years ago the contractor used silver solder---not just lead/tin--- and I asked him why. He simply said "I don't ever want to need to come back". I believe him as my system is still working fine.

 

[Jim greengo]

I've been told that after 20 years (or less) the soldered joints tend to leak. When I had my current a/c installed 23 years ago the contractor used silver solder---not just lead/tin--- and I asked him why. He simply said "I don't ever want to need to come back". I believe him as my system is still working fine.

I've seen a lot more mechanical/threaded joints leak than soldered jointed leak over the years unless it was junk install.
There are many versions of silver solder out there.
It usually comes down to how things fit together,and the guy holding the torch.

 

[Steve_P]

Daikin, Amana, and Goodman are all part of the Daikin group of companies so specs for the Goodman SD, Amana S, and Diakin FIT should be identical. Goodman is marketed as the budget/contractor end of the product line, Daikin in the middle and Amana marketed as an upper tier brand and units are priced accordingly. Although I haven't checked, I think warranties for all three brands are nearly identical as well.

The upper Amana line has a superior warranty to Goodman. It's almost the same unit, but Amana uses a SST heat exchanger in their gas furnaces that they warranty for life to the original owner. Or did a few years ago. They give a similar warranty on the AC compressor where if it fails, they replace the entire condenser unit. I don't know if that's still true today, but it was a few years ago as I did the research. And then didn't buy anything.

 

[Smoker]

I just replaced my old 5 ton Carrier with a middle of the pack Trane plus a new coil inside the house. All done for $11K. Not cheap but I think given the current insanity I didn't get completely hosed. Other quotes were $20k+

New unit is way quieter and way more efficient.

 

[pcfithian]

It is not that hard to install a new system if you have good mechanical skills and a few specialty tools.

Several places sell complete systems on line. Here’s one I have had great experience with:

Heat and Cool Direct

www.heatandcooldirect.com

heatandcooldirect.com

They show a new 5 ton R410 system for $4,500

New Ducane by Lennox 16.2 SEER2 5.0T Central Air A/C PKG w/ Coil & Line Set

Welcome to heatandcooldirectcom!Up for sale is a Package which includes the following Brand New Ducane (a Lennox product) items: High Efficiency Energy Star Rated Central A/C Air Conditioner Condenser R410 up to 17 SEER (16.2 SEER2) 5.0 Ton (60K BTU) Size model number 4AC17L60P, an Uncased 5.0...

heatandcooldirect.com

 

[rattle_snake]

5 ton is about $5k. The rest is profit for installer. Hands off approach could add another $15k.

 

[nadogail]

I took a class in HVAC, not because I wanted it to become a HVAC technician but so that I would not be easy prey to a dishonest technician. I learned that there are technicians out there that make Lawyers look like Saints. The things that the instructor said sometimes happen would make a used car salesman feel guilty.

There are many ways to prey on the ignorant and some techs know them all.

 

[azmodela]

It's hard to find a good HVAC company these days. The fancy corporate ones do stand out, but the small guys try to emulate them with advertising, truck wraps and similar. Their websites don't help, they all use the same format and hardly have any info. I just want to find a local, independent guy/company that does an honest job.

 

[BrandonV]

It's hard to find a good HVAC company these days. The fancy corporate ones do stand out, but the small guys try to emulate them with advertising, truck wraps and similar. Their websites don't help, they all use the same format and hardly have any info. I just want to find a local, independent guy/company that does an honest job.

Biggest mistake I did was going with the big AC company. They built a showroom for residential AC systems.

Nobody cares about looking at an AC system in a showroom... clearly they paid for that warehouse with their cut-rate job.

 

[rixtrix1]

Why a double recharge to find a leak? If the system is not empty, it's required to recover the refrigerant! Most reputable shops use nitrogen to pressurized an empty system to perform a leak test. My last 80cu ft bottle refill cost me under $100(I use it in my air rifles as it's not very temp sensitive to pressure change and free of moisture and contaminants). It's at 6000psi when full, so plenty of material for many, many tests, so much that only a minimal charge for gas, unless included in the leak test price. Maybe you need to find an HVAC serviceman, not an HVAC SALESMAN! Units in colder climes last much much longer than in the desert!

AC longevity tip: anytime the temp is above 55-60, run the unit for 10-15 minutes to circulate oil/refrigerant throughout, helps bearings, too. Once a month in the off season is fine.