50A Generator Interlock Switch Wiring

[DerStig]

I had had a company install a 50A interlock switch on a double pole breaker and run a cable to an outdoor 50A rated power inlet box 3 years ago. This was for me to utilize my 10kW portable generator.

Fast forward to now and I just realized they used a 8-3 NM-B cable with #8 Cu CCC (2 hots and 1 neutral) and 10# bare ground. The run is around 70 ft.

The work was done with permit etc and was approved by township.

Is the cable used appropriate? The research I did indicates that 8/3 is OK only in a conduit.

 

[pattenp]

#8 NM-b is limited to 40A.

 

[Muzzy]

What is the size of the breaker it runs to?
As stated 40 A is the limit.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Along with the above, is the wire ran outdoors? if so, it is a violation as NM-b is not allowed outside nor is it rated for use outside, regardless if its in conduit.

The #8 NM-b is also undersized for the generator...and 70’ may be too long for voltage drop.

Lots of things wrong here

Permit and govt approval mean nothing as inspectors miss stuff all the time. Some dont even bother to look at the work.

 

[DerStig]

The outlet is outdoors. Everything else is indoors. Wire does not travel anywhere outside besides being connected to the outlet.

The breaker is a 50A breaker.

The generator has a peak 10,000 watt but constant 8,800 watt load. Which comes out to be 36,6 amps. I am guessing they said “he needs 40A, but to use 40A constant, we need 50A breaker. But because he will never use more than 40A, 8-3 NM-B is fine”. But I dont think its fine.

What course of action do I have? Can I ask for a refund?

 

[Muzzy]

You could switch the breaker out for a 40 A one. They're reasonably priced if you have a still in production panel. A picture would be very helpful for the experts to give a recommendation.

 

[DerStig]

You could switch the breaker out for a 40 A one. They're reasonably priced if you have a still in production panel. A picture would be very helpful for the experts to give a recommendation.

Its a siemens G4040MB1200 Series C Type 1.

I’m pretty sure I can find a 40A breaker but thats not what the job was. I paid them $1100 for this about 3-4 years ago and that price did not include the 50A Power Inlet box which itself is almost $100 which I had provided.

Do I have some sort of legal leg to stand on? Somewhere to complain to get them to either give me a refund or get them to provide me with a #6 Cable so I can finish the job myself?

But I m guessing even with #6 NM-B, the part where the cable is not outdoor rated is a problem. The right way to do this is to run a #6 THHN inside a conduit all the way.

The other thing that I did not mention is when I opened the power inlet box outdoors today, I saw that all 3 CCCs had their outer transparent shield completely cooked/crumbling/ripped open. I was shocked. Its as if someone put them in oven and baked them. I used properly colored electrical tape (black,red,white) to tape them all up as tight as I can.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Sounds like the wire has been overloaded.

Have you been using this?

Can you post some pictures?

 

[DerStig]

Sounds like the wire has been overloaded.

Have you been using this?

Can you post some pictures?

Of course I can. I have used the generator probably 4-5 times a year over 3-4 years. There has been situations where generator ran for 20 hours continuously. Some situations were only couple of hours. The generator has a dynamic load balancer where it detects extra load and increases its output. I do NOT use this as I had situations where this wasnt quick enough and voltage drop was present. So when I run the generator, I always run it at its max output.

About the pictures :

- I attach the picture taken when the wires are connected to the outlet. If you make it full screen and zoom in, you can see that insulation is visibly separated from the wire and shows as cloudy white color.

- I also attach a picture of the cable completely removed because upon inspecting the cable after removing the conduit body cover, I saw very visible damage to the cable insulation. It was that damage that prompted me to disconnect the wires to repair the black insulation. However when I removed the cover of the outlet, I saw even more damage on the wires themselves.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ok now that i see pics, i can definitely say thats not from overheating or melting.

Thats the result of dragging the outer jacket across something sharp.

Definitely not melted

 

[pattenp]

Nothing there is making the wire insulation wise unsafe. The black outer jacket can be taped. The nylon/pvc skin on the individual conductors being skinned is no big deal. Overall it's just a sloppy install.

 

[DerStig]

Thank you but what about using #8 romex for 50A breaker? Isnt this a big deal?

 

[pattenp]

Yes. The 50A breaker being used should be a 40A. You need #6 NM for 50A.

 

[DerStig]

That part I understand. The part I need help with is what do I do with this electrical company? Legally, how do I force them to fix this?

Thanks

 

[pattenp]

Go back to the inspection department and tell them what you discovered. There should be some recourse since a permit was needed.

 

[pattenp]

I assume your township follows the NEC.

 

[GTO]

I would call them and have them install a 40 amp breaker and be done with it.Have them pay for the breaker too.

 

[DerStig]

I would call them and have them install a 40 amp breaker and be done with it.Have them pay for the breaker too.

The job was 50A. The outlet I purchased and all other material (such as the 50 ft generator cable connecting to that outlet) were a sized for 50A. And I paid for 50A. I paid $1100 for this 4 years ago. In today’s money thats $1300. All that $1300 included was the breaker, cable, and labor. Isnt that unfair having paid all that I should “settle for” 40A?

I will offer them to pay for the material and let me install or cut me a check for the same amount. The thing is, with this virus going around I also dont want anyone coming to my home.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

70’ of cable? Thats gonna be a bit of labor.

I would make them fix it not do it yourself.

Also, doing it yourself could create legal issues since this was a permitted job. You really shouldnt be touching their work to fix it.

 

[pattenp]

I wonder if it was over site on the installer. Both #8 and #6 are black jacketed. They may have misread the cable size. So they may replace it without an argument.

 

[DerStig]

I wonder if it was over site on the installer. Both #8 and #6 are black jacketed. They may have misread the cable size. So they may replace it without an argument.

What is interesting is the ground jumper on the outdoor box is a #6 wire that they used - which is very confusing.

 

[DerStig]

70’ of cable? Thats gonna be a bit of labor.

I would make them fix it not do it yourself.

Also, doing it yourself could create legal issues since this was a permitted job. You really shouldnt be touching their work to fix it.

The problem with them doing it is I dont think they will do it right. The more I look at it, the more I see problems with this.

- They have used a 3/4” pvc conduit of 3 feet to transition from ceiling to the conduit body to outside. That pvc conduit is very tight even for 8/3 NM-B. Which explains the damage visible on my pictures. There is no way 6/3 cable will fit in there.

- There is a portion of this cable that crosses my duct work. Upon closer inspection, they simply laid the cable on top of duct work and they did this not on the intake but the out side. My duct work gets pretty warm and I dont think NM-B cable can be laid like that on duct work. And its not a small piece but rather a 3-4 feet long cable laying on the duct work.

- There is again a portion of this cable that is stapled under the ceiling joist - no holes were bored. You could argue NEC allows this for this size cable but it looks really ugly.

The company that did this is one of those companies who sends crews to sites (they had 3 people that day). I highly doubt these people had electrician licenses. They call the main office to ask for direction. I had a similar experience when my HVAC system was replaced. Again, different company but sent 3 people who were doing wiring and they did not look like they had electrician license. I found so many shortcuts with their work including pulling MC cable so far to the point the conductors became visible.

9 out of 10 households in this day and age are ignorant and cant even bother to change a light bulb. So to them, if lights are on and no smoke is coming out of the panel, its good. I am in the 1/10 camp. And its because of those 9 that companies like these stay in business.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The problem with them doing it is I dont think they will do it right. The more I look at it, the more I see problems with this.

Then they can redo it again....

If you touch it, then you create legal issues for yourself

- They have used a 3/4” pvc conduit of 3 feet to transition from ceiling to the conduit body to outside. That pvc conduit is very tight even for 8/3 NM-B. Which explains the damage visible on my pictures. There is no way 6/3 cable will fit in there.

- There is a portion of this cable that crosses my duct work. Upon closer inspection, they simply laid the cable on top of duct work and they did this not on the intake but the out side. My duct work gets pretty warm and I dont think NM-B cable can be laid like that on duct work. And its not a small piece but rather a 3-4 feet long cable laying on the duct work.

- There is again a portion of this cable that is stapled under the ceiling joist - no holes were bored. You could argue NEC allows this for this size cable but it looks really ugly.

The company that did this is one of those companies who sends crews to sites (they had 3 people that day). I highly doubt these people had electrician licenses. They call the main office to ask for direction. I had a similar experience when my HVAC system was replaced. Again, different company but sent 3 people who were doing wiring and they did not look like they had electrician license. I found so many shortcuts with their work including pulling MC cable so far to the point the conductors became visible.

9 out of 10 households in this day and age are ignorant and cant even bother to change a light bulb. So to them, if lights are on and no smoke is coming out of the panel, its good. I am in the 1/10 camp. And its because of those 9 that companies like these stay in business.

umm how do you tell by looking at someone whether they have an electrician's license?

Most states do not require employees to have a contractor's license. Some states (such as california) do however require employees to have certifications (california's is a journeyman card).

In regards to calling their office for help, that's not out of the ordinary. Questions often arise in oddball situations and it's better to ask questions than just guess.

Now, I will leave with this. I've worked for a few licensed electrical contractor's and even the bosses didn't know certain things, some of which were electrical basics. I had to educate one boss(he was the one who held the state contractor's license) on the difference between the grounded conductor and the grounding conductor. He didn't understand why both were needed because.... "they're both connected to the same bar in the main service panel." FACEPALM

 

[DerStig]

Then they can redo it again....

If you touch it, then you create legal issues for yourself



umm how do you tell by looking at someone whether they have an electrician's license?

Most states do not require employees to have a contractor's license. Some states (such as california) do however require employees to have certifications (california's is a journeyman card).

In regards to calling their office for help, that's not out of the ordinary. Questions often arise in oddball situations and it's better to ask questions than just guess.

Now, I will leave with this. I've worked for a few licensed electrical contractor's and even the bosses didn't know certain things, some of which were electrical basics. I had to educate one boss(he was the one who held the state contractor's license) on the difference between the grounded conductor and the grounding conductor. He didn't understand why both were needed because.... "they're both connected to the same bar in the main service panel." FACEPALM

- HVAC people used sheet metal screws to connect a junction box to wood joist. Wood joist = wood screws. Metal = metal screws. Not only that, they have used all 6 screw holes to connect a tiny junction box, including the ground screw one. Not only that but they have also used the wrong junction box. They have used a junction box that doesnt have a raised ground screw hole. They used the one where the entire back is flat. And they ended up attaching the ground wire to the cover screw. Back to back sloppiness.

- As I said, the MC Lite conduit/cable they used was short so they pulled it really hard to make it reach causing it to separate to the point where a foot long section of it shows the conductors inside.

- They have attached a 12/2 MC Cable perpendicular to ceiling joists.

- They have tried to use the wrong cable for the 20A breaker. They said the new HVAC fan is more efficient and doesnt draw more than 12 amps. So 15A is all it needs. Breaker there was 20A from previous unit. I had to fight with them to use 12/2 cable.

I dont know for a fact they were not electricians but I know how they splice wires, how they used/held various hand held tools, and their overall attitude was at best mediocre.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Don't know what state you're in but Im sure theres a way to figure out if they're licensed IF the state requires licensing.

Then tell them to come fix it or you'll file a claim with their bonding agency.

 

[DerStig]

Don't know what state you're in but Im sure theres a way to figure out if they're licensed IF the state requires licensing.

Then tell them to come fix it or you'll file a claim with their bonding agency.

You see thats the kind of specific direction/help I needed. “Bonding agency”. If I use the right words, I’m sure they’ll be inclined to make it right.

Thanks a lot for your help.

 

[mike93lx]

If you know so much about the right way to do it and don't trust them, do it yourself.

Otherwise call them and have a discussion. Like an adult. Talking about legal stuff at this point is way premature

 

[DerStig]

If you know so much about the right way to do it and don't trust them, do it yourself.

Otherwise call them and have a discussion. Like an adult. Talking about legal stuff at this point is way premature

If this was now not 4 yrs ago, I would do it. At the time, I wasn’t knowledgeable and interested in this stuff. Over the years, I started learning and doing more and more complex projects.

I am also not claiming I know better. I dont think there is any better here as its not a matter of opinion. I want whatever National Electric Code says is the proper way. This is not like doing a kitchen or furniture, to me its entirely objective.

The wire for this job is $120 at homedepot. I could easily buy it and do this myself. But I did pay pretty hefty amount and I dont think its right.

Also the 70 ft run for this is extremely simple. Its all unfinished basement. 60-65 ft of this run would take anyone half decent an hour to staple. At the time, they spent less than 3 hours between the staple, breaker box, conduit, and outlet mount.

 

[theoldwizard1]

The outlet is outdoors. Everything else is indoors. Wire does not travel anywhere outside besides being connected to the outlet.

The breaker is a 50A breaker.

The size of the breaker in your box is basically meaningless. It is there as part of the interlock system so that you can not have two power sources at the same time. If your panel company made a switch with no overload capability, that fit in the exact same hole, it would be "legal". (Remember, a breaker only protects the wire downstream to the load which is the next breaker. You are protecting the bus bar !)

The generator has a peak 10,000 watt but constant 8,800 watt load.

What size is the "upstream" breaker ON THE GENERATOR (the actual power source). I am betting it is less than 35A. (If you want to know for certain, look up the make and model of the generator. The parts list should say the size of the breaker. The one I checked were 33A.)

NM-B is fine if it is indoor. 8 gauge is adequate if the input power from the generator is under 40A.

 

[DerStig]

The size of the breaker in your box is basically meaningless. It is there as part of the interlock system so that you can not have two power sources at the same time. If your panel company made a switch with no overload capability, that fit in the exact same hole, it would be "legal". (Remember, a breaker only protects the wire downstream to the load which is the next breaker. You are protecting the bus bar !)



What size is the "upstream" breaker ON THE GENERATOR (the actual power source). I am betting it is less than 35A. (If you want to know for certain, look up the make and model of the generator. The parts list should say the size of the breaker. The one I checked were 33A.)

NM-B is fine if it is indoor. 8 gauge is adequate if the input power from the generator is under 40A.

This particular one has a surge amps of 42 and constant amps of 37.

But that has nothing to do with the job, because the job specified 50A in spec as I wanted something that can handle 50A if in the future I end up going to a 12kw or even a 14kw portable generator. As such, the external cable from generator to the outlet cost me $300 alone and weighs over 60 lbs. The power inlet at the time cost me $100. I went extra in both of those components to future proof. I could have gotten cheaper 40A alternatives and asked for 40A circuit.

So whether it is safe or “okay” for the generator I have is probably not relevant here. I paid for 50A, I should have gotten 50A.

 

[theoldwizard1]

But that has nothing to do with the job, because the job specified 50A in spec as I wanted something that can handle 50A if in the future I end up going to a 12kw or even a 14kw portable generator.

If you have that in writing, it is time to call a lawyer.

(Why any one would want a portable generator that size is beyond me !)

 

[DerStig]

If you have that in writing, it is time to call a lawyer.

(Why any one would want a portable generator that size is beyond me !)

No need for a lawyer. Company is making it right.

Why? Because I want to power my house properly and dont want to get ripped off for a generac 22 kW and pay over $20k (thats what it costs in the east cost).

This generator cost me $800 and I can run everything as long as I am mindful. It even runs my HVAC condenser.

I also want the flexibility of being able to use both gasoline and LPG whereas with standby generators you are stuck with natural gas and you are stuck with paying annual maintenance.

This generator has saved me so many times, it is the best investment I have made and a very cheap one in that too.

And the adventurist in me likes having to carry the 450 lbs things out then the 60 lbs cable and pour gas in storm conditions

 

[pbon]

It was 4 years ago. Did you buy the 4 year warranty? Is there a 4 year statue of limitations because the faulty work was hidden and could not reasonably have been discovered within the normal statutory period?

 

[DerStig]

It was 4 years ago. Did you buy the 4 year warranty? Is there a 4 year statue of limitations because the faulty work was hidden and could not reasonably have been discovered within the normal statutory period?

Its irrelevant. They are correcting the problem. They stand behind their work.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Its irrelevant. They are correcting the problem. They stand behind their work.

Impressive !

 

[DerStig]

Impressive !

Yes, great company based on what I have seen so far.

 

[Kevin Essiambre]

No need for a lawyer. Company is making it right.

Why? Because I want to power my house properly and dont want to get ripped off for a generac 22 kW and pay over $20k (thats what it costs in the east cost).

That's a stupidly high price. Up here, in Canada, a 14KW Kohler generator was being sold for $14k installed about a year ago by a local guy (I know because we wired up 33 of them...) you could buy the generator and transfer switch yourself, and coordinate the gas and electrical hookups for way less.

This generator cost me $800 and I can run everything as long as I am mindful. It even runs my HVAC condenser.

I'm not sure what kind of generator is is, or what your loads are, but keep in mind that some generators do not play nice with some electronics. I've heard of cheap generators causing a furnace not to work while on generator power, or frying some electronics, but it's hit and miss with what doesn't play nice. Most (maybe even all) items WILL work fine, and lately, I haven't heard of any electronics not playing nice.

I also want the flexibility of being able to use both gasoline and LPG whereas with standby generators you are stuck with natural gas and you are stuck with paying annual maintenance.

You could get a standby generator in either diesel or LPG/NG (which with a little bit of work with the gas guy could theoretically be able to use natural gas as primary fuel, and propane as a backup... But, this is all I will say for this).

This generator has saved me so many times, it is the best investment I have made and a very cheap one in that too.

Standby generators monitor both lines coming into the house. We had a client that was on vacation. One half of the power went out, causing their fridge and freezer to stop running (thankfully their furnace kept working). The house sitter didn't even know anything was wrong because the house was heated and the water still worked (city). A standby generator would have saved both the fridge and freezer, as all the food spoiled, and caused the fridge and freezer to take on a quite unpleasant smell.

And the adventurist in me likes having to carry the 450 lbs things out then the 60 lbs cable and pour gas in storm conditions

That being said, the portable generator works for you, so that's all you need.

I've been eyeing up the 10 000 watt honda generator. That thing is a beast at over 450 lbs. But I decided if I'm getting a generator that I'll need a truck or trailer to move, I might as well just get a 15-20kw model already mounted on a trailer.

Sent from my new phone. Autocorrect may have changed stuff.

 

[larry4406]

Yes, great company based on what I have seen so far.

Except for the initial flawed installation....

Glad they are fixing it no charge after you brought it to their attention.

 

[mike93lx]

Amazing what can happen when we just talk to people. Almost like it should be the first step in resolving an issue

 

[DerStig]

Amazing what can happen when we just talk to people. Almost like it should be the first step in resolving an issue

Sarcasm accepted. But you can't blame me for coming here to get some information on what I have observed (to confirm this is indeed a problem) before I went to them. I appreciate everyone for their help.