55 year old house, do I need to replace anything?

[Schmoke]

Small beach house in Massachusetts, I'm wondering if I need to upgrade things. All I did so far was replace the silent/mercury light switches a few years ago, haven't touched anything else.

100 amp service. No heat, no air, here's the box:



50 is the range, 30 is the water heater. A 10 for the water pump, another for the fridge.

The others are lights or outlets. One for example is for the single incandescent bathroom light, the rest of the breakers are similarly taxed, there are maybe 10 outlets in the entire house, maybe six light switches. Over the years I've added: a tv, portable 110 clothes washer, and cable Internet. Breakers have never popped. No current plans for additional significant new equipment.

I want to add two 20 amp breakers with five outlets on each. One or two 15 (maybe 20) amp breakers for additional lights.

The new outlets are for convenience, so I can get rid of dependence on multiple 6-outlet power strip extensions. The new lights, because the place is ****** dark. The house was minimally built, for meals and shelter when everyone wasn't at the beach. The place is unoccupied 11+ months each year.

50+ year old breakers, do they need replaced? Same with the outlets, 50 years old.
Do I need to install new wires? Sorry I don't have info at the moment on wire gauge, I *think* they're solid copper I'll have to check.

Outside, the lines from the pole to the house are ... interesting. They're only 10 feet or so above the patio, if I jumped I bet I could grab them.

Finally, within the next five years, I'll probably install an EV charger. Presently 60 amps I think, who know what it'll be in a few years. Wondering if the 100a service will be sufficient for everything then.

Where to start?

 

[LOW1]

I would be more concerned about the too low service line than the panel box. Maybe changing it to what may be needed for a future 200 amp service and burying it makes sense?

 

[mike93lx]

If it really is 50 years old (doesn't look like it to me), yes, it is past it's useful life and a replacement should be done before it is a problem

 

[Schmoke]

>> I would be more concerned about the too low service line than the panel box.

I plan to take care of both!

Upgrading to 200a and burying, excellent ideas, thank you.

>> If it really is 50 years old (doesn't look like it to me)

Boy ... I hadn't thought of that. Well, I guess I don't know 100% if there were any improvements to the box. The original builders are no longer around, there's no one I can ask.

 

[sparky 1971]

Leave it alone. The breakers are readily available and easy to replace. You don't have any 10 amp 120 volt circuits either. Look at the number on the end of the handles, either 15 or 20. 100 amps is plenty. The only reason I can think of for upgrading to 200 amps would be to install an electric furnace which is a waste of money itself.

 

[Mike65]

When my wife & I moved into our 45 YO ranch style "retirement home" 2 years ago in southwest Virginia the electrical outlets looked old & had paint on them from a PO. I went thru the whole house & replace all the outlets, & light switches. We also had the old maxed out electrical panel replaced with a larger one so there was room to expand since I wanted to add a 2 car garage & a workshop in the basement. We also upgraded to 200 amp service. We also had all the old mechanicals replaced, A/C, Furnace/Heat Pump, & Tankless Water Heater. We had all new windows installed, new front door, side door, & rear sliding glass door to the deck. We tore down the old sagging deck & had it replaced with a new one. All the mechanical upgrades & the windows & doors were done before we moved in. We had all the mechanicals replaced because the A/C did not work, the water heater was almost 20 YO, & the furnace/heat pump was also very old & not energy efficient. We also replaced all the shut offs using 1/4 turn shut offs for the toilets & the sinks & ball valves elsewhere.

 

[billconner]

I agree with sparky 1971. It's fine and safe, easily repairable, and newer gear uses less energy.

But is this your last house forever and how old are you? If you're 35 and plan to live here full time, different than 60 and a summer or part time place. Any plans to expand building?

 

[mike93lx]

What's the condition of the inside of the panel? The meter pan? The wire from the Weatherhead?

 

[Norcal]

The panel is not 55 years old if it was the main would be with the rest of the breakers & would take 4 spaces on both rows in the panel, (2 on each side), if it's decent shape should do just fine.

 

[billconner]

I'd be more concerned by plumbing than electric at 55. Do valves work - main and stops at sinks, etc,? Probably no lead nor the early plastic that had failures, but rust and corrosion and liming up are age issues, as well as pumps, softeners, and such. Septic systems to. No circuit breakers to protect house from leaks.

Just a thought.

Well, dont forget roofs and if it's been roofed over, your next may be a tear off.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

No way that panel is 50yrs old... maybe 20yrs old...

 

[mikedodge]

If anything flip the breakers off and on

I'd be more concerned by plumbing than electric at 55. Do valves work - main and stops at sinks, etc,? Probably no lead nor the early plastic that had failures, but rust and corrosion and liming up are age issues, as well as pumps, softeners, and such. Septic systems to. No circuit breakers to protect house from leaks.

Just a thought.

Well, dont forget roofs and if it's been roofed over, your next may be a tear off.

Yep, that would be my concern too over power.

If anything you could turn the breakers off and on to exercise them or carefully remove the cover to see if there is any signs of damage from over loading but beyond that there's not much point changing anything unless you know there are issues.

 

[sparky 1971]

No way that panel is 50yrs old... maybe 20yrs old...

It looks to me like either the panel was changed from a QO to another and the old breakers were used or that QO panel was installed and used breakers were installed. The main is too new to be 50, but those branch circuit breakers are too old to be 20. I've been at it for 29 years and I "think" that Sq D had marked the breaker sizes in white, but not in the style of those two poles.

The 50 year old QO panels had those crappy 100 amp mains that took up the top four spaces.

 

[kaffine]

Might want to take a closer look at those breakers they are not 10A. Need to look on the handle for the rating. The 10,ooo is the amount of current it can interrupt in a short circuit. I don't know why they decided to put 10 in large with "AIC' next to in then three small 0 under the AIC.

I would look for a label either on the door on if you are ok with taking off the front panel possibly inside that may indicate a manufacturer date.

 

[dogdog]

Check if the wiring is aluminum, if it is maybe replace them all. Except the SER of cause

 

[Schmoke]

Thanks for all the replies, helpful.

I thought the box and breakers weren't touched in 50+ years, sounds like that isn't the case. I'm very curious now, I'll remove the cover and take more pics when I'm able. I'll also properly mark the amperage of each breaker, the explicit '10' on the small breakers misled me.

Exercise the breakers. I didn't know that was a thing. And I'll check for aluminum wires.



The plumbing has been worked on, a lot, the past 50 years. Very simple, kitchen sink, bathroom sink, toilet, all into a cesspool out back. New pump 4-5 years ago.

New roof, maybe 8 years ago.

 

[Schmoke]

>> But is this your last house forever and how old are you? If you're 35 and plan to live here full time,
>> different than 60 and a summer or part time place. Any plans to expand building?

Not my last house. Nor a present one. Just a beach house, no plans to expand.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Outside, the lines from the pole to the house are ... interesting. They're only 10 feet or so above the patio, if I jumped I bet I could grab them.

If the lowest point is above 10' you are good.

 

[billconner]

>> But is this your last house forever and how old are you? If you're 35 and plan to live here full time,
>> different than 60 and a summer or part time place. Any plans to expand building?

Not my last house. Nor a present one. Just a beach house, no plans to expand.

Then I don't think you have much to worry about. Congrats!

 

[reader2580]

If it really is 50 years old (doesn't look like it to me), yes, it is past it's useful life and a replacement should be done before it is a problem

I am curious why a 50 year panel automatically needs replaced? My parents have a 44 year old ITE Gould (now Siemens) panel that is still in fine shape. Current Siemens breakers still work in that panel as Siemens adopted the ITE Gould breakers as their standard. Siemens sold the same basic panel until the plug on neutral panels came out a year or two ago. They might even still sell the old style panels without plug on neutral, not sure.

My house had the same ITE Gould panel as my parents until I replaced the panel with a new Siemens in 2020. I needed to separate the neutrals and grounds and a new panel was easier than dealing with the old one. I had done so many electrical changes that I had replaced most of the ITE Gould breakers with Siemens anyhow.

 

[mike93lx]

I am curious why a 50 year panel automatically needs replaced? My parents have a 44 year old ITE Gould (now Siemens) panel that is still in fine shape. Current Siemens breakers still work in that panel as Siemens adopted the ITE Gould breakers as their standard. Siemens sold the same basic panel until the plug on neutral panels came out a year or two ago. They might even still sell the old style panels without plug on neutral, not sure.

My house had the same ITE Gould panel as my parents until I replaced the panel with a new Siemens in 2020. I needed to separate the neutrals and grounds and a new panel was easier than dealing with the old one. I had done so many electrical changes that I had replaced most of the ITE Gould breakers with Siemens anyhow.

The stuff just isn't designed to last forever. Breakers can fail to trip, trip too easily, buss bars can corrode, etc.

I don't like waiting for critical infrastructure to fail. You either schedule maintenance, or it schedules for you.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Siemens sold the same basic panel until the plug on neutral panels came out a year or two ago. They might even still sell the old style panels without plug on neutral, not sure.

Yes siemens still sells the non plug-on neutral panels as of a few years ago. I bought one for my shop and it was the only brand at the time that i could get almost all the breakers and buss bars for, as most places were either sold out of breakers or panels or both. Siemens was the only brand that home depot had stock on most items between 2 stores. I did have to source a few breakers from amazon though

 

[theoldwizard1]

Replace all galvanized plumbing.

 

[reader2580]

The stuff just isn't designed to last forever. Breakers can fail to trip, trip too easily, buss bars can corrode, etc.

I don't like waiting for critical infrastructure to fail. You either schedule maintenance, or it schedules for you.

I have almost never heard of a 40 to 50 year old house needing a new panel so long as the original panel was from a reputable manufacturer, or the house needed a larger service. I would think electrical contractors would be running advertisements advising replacement at 40 years if it was a common thing.

My 40 year old ITE Gould load center had surface rust on the main breaker, but it still moved and disconnected the power. Whoever installed the panel didn't put in duct seal to block condensation. I only replaced the load center because I needed to separate grounds and neutrals and the old load center had no easy way to do so.

 

[reader2580]

Yes siemens still sells the non plug-on neutral panels as of a few years ago. I bought one for my shop and it was the only brand at the time that i could get almost all the breakers and buss bars for, as most places were either sold out of breakers or panels or both. Siemens was the only brand that home depot had stock on most items between 2 stores. I did have to source a few breakers from amazon though

The plug on neutral panels were supposed to go on sale on April 1, 2020. No idea if the pandemic delayed the rollout. In 2020 I managed to find an unused PL series 200 amp load center at a place selling Home Depot returns and it was only like $70. I am pretty sure it had not been used. (I needed one to replace the load center in my house.) In late 2020 or early 2021 I was able to buy two PL series 100 amp load centers from Amazon as renewed. Neither looked like they had been used.

 

[mm08822]

In high salt environments steel can rust out quickly. Aluminum is a no no. Copper only.
Pull covers off panel and meter and visually assess.
Change out some devices/fixtures to further assess quality of work/ condition of materials.
If all good, consider it good enough. Many other ways to spend money/time.

 

[mike93lx]

I have almost never heard of a 40 to 50 year old house needing a new panel so long as the original panel was from a reputable manufacturer, or the house needed a larger service. I would think electrical contractors would be running advertisements advising replacement at 40 years if it was a common thing.

My 40 year old ITE Gould load center had surface rust on the main breaker, but it still moved and disconnected the power. Whoever installed the panel didn't put in duct seal to block condensation. I only replaced the load center because I needed to separate grounds and neutrals and the old load center had no easy way to do so.

I advised considering replacement. Did not tell him it was a requirement.

 

[sparky 1971]

I advised considering replacement. Did not tell him it was a requirement.

Judging by the style of main breaker, I think that panel has a copper bus bar. The previous style 100 amp main breaker panels were aluminum and were P.O.S's when they were new and still are.

 

[mike93lx]

Judging by the style of main breaker, I think that panel has a copper bus bar. The previous style 100 amp main breaker panels were aluminum and were P.O.S's when they were new and still are.

It certainly may be in great shape. I'm curious about the meter pan and service entrance at well

 

[Schmoke]

I'll be there, end of July. I'll take more pics.

 

[Jim greengo]

Theres

Small beach house in Massachusetts, I'm wondering if I need to upgrade things. All I did so far was replace the silent/mercury light switches a few years ago, haven't touched anything else.

100 amp service. No heat, no air, here's the box:



50 is the range, 30 is the water heater. A 10 for the water pump, another for the fridge.

The others are lights or outlets. One for example is for the single incandescent bathroom light, the rest of the breakers are similarly taxed, there are maybe 10 outlets in the entire house, maybe six light switches. Over the years I've added: a tv, portable 110 clothes washer, and cable Internet. Breakers have never popped. No current plans for additional significant new equipment.

I want to add two 20 amp breakers with five outlets on each. One or two 15 (maybe 20) amp breakers for additional lights.

The new outlets are for convenience, so I can get rid of dependence on multiple 6-outlet power strip extensions. The new lights, because the place is ****** dark. The house was minimally built, for meals and shelter when everyone wasn't at the beach. The place is unoccupied 11+ months each year.

50+ year old breakers, do they need replaced? Same with the outlets, 50 years old.
Do I need to install new wires? Sorry I don't have info at the moment on wire gauge, I *think* they're solid copper I'll have to check.

Outside, the lines from the pole to the house are ... interesting. They're only 10 feet or so above the patio, if I jumped I bet I could grab them.

Finally, within the next five years, I'll probably install an EV charger. Presently 60 amps I think, who know what it'll be in a few years. Wondering if the 100a service will be sufficient for everything

There's nothing wrong with Qo breakers,what does inside of panel look like?

 

[Lassen Forge]

The biggest consideration (it's the one we;re dealing with right now) is as long as it has the capacity to do with what you want, then you should be OK. If it is a 50 YO Schneider Electric (Square D), I wouldn't worry about it. Now if it was a 50 year old Sylvania/Zinsco, then I'd consider replacing it. Saying that - I've only had one Zinsco breaker go to ****, the busbar was relatively OK, and it was at the bottom of the bar, so we were able to work around it. Still... had we not sold the place, those wonderful (for 1972) panels were getting swapped out, just because I wanted newer (and honestly, less expensive to replace) breakers than those ones, and were on our hit list for this summer.

We have 25 amps at 230V (which used to be normal for Europe), now it's about worthless because we actually have electrical appliances, shops, etc as well as lights. When we're done I'm hoping for at least 75 amp service - enough to feed our home AND my shop.

 

[reader2580]

I advised considering replacement. Did not tell him it was a requirement.

Aren't you the one who said that 50 year old panels should be replaced essentially as a maintenance item?

 

[PelicanPines]

Don't forget to label things. Lack of labels... causes anxiety.

 

[mike93lx]

Aren't you the one who said that 50 year old panels should be replaced essentially as a maintenance item?

Should ≠ must

 

[alfredeneuman]

There's a label on the inside of the cover's door that lists the model #.
It might be easier to date the panel if we had that #.

 

[AA/FC]

I would be more concerned about the too low service line than the panel box. Maybe changing it to what may be needed for a future 200 amp service and burying it makes sense?

I am curious why you think a 100 amp service is too small?

By the looks of that panel, it's a fairly small house. In fact, it looks similar to the 100 amp Siemens panel in my 1000 sq ft house.... There is no possible way that I could ever need more than 100 amps. Even considering the 50 amp welding receptacle in my garage (which I will eventually use as an EV charger receptacle some day) I was doing some testing last fall and I had my entire house running on my backup generator.... I had at least one light turned on in every room including inside the garage, the front porch light on, the driveway light on, refrigerator running, 65" TV turned on, and I even had my 1.5 ton central AC running.... and I was only drawing like 3700 watts. (give or take. It wasn't much) That's a long way from the 24,000 watts I have available with my 100 amp breaker at 240 volts.

I was going to install a 200 amp service (when I removed the original 60 amp FPE panel. lol) and my friend who is a master electrician told me I was crazy. He said there is no possible way that I could ever need more than 100 amps and anything over that is a waste of money.... in the form of wire and supporting equipment. Of course this was 15 years ago and nobody was thinking about electric cars at that point. If you needed to charge a bunch of EVs then I could see needing a bigger service but that's the only reason. Especially at a small beach house.

Sparkies.... tell me if I am wrong.

 

[mike93lx]

I am curious why you think a 100 amp service is too small?

By the looks of that panel, it's a fairly small house. In fact, it looks similar to the 100 amp Siemens panel in my 1000 sq ft house.... There is no possible way that I could ever need more than 100 amps. Even considering the 50 amp welding receptacle in my garage (which I will eventually use as an EV charger receptacle some day) I was doing some testing last fall and I had my entire house running on my backup generator.... I had at least one light turned on in every room including inside the garage, the front porch light on, the driveway light on, refrigerator running, 65" TV turned on, and I even had my 1.5 ton central AC running.... and I was only drawing like 3700 watts. (give or take. It wasn't much) That's a long way from the 24,000 watts I have available with my 100 amp breaker at 240 volts.

I was going to install a 200 amp service (when I removed the original 60 amp FPE panel. lol) and my friend who is a master electrician told me I was crazy. He said there is no possible way that I could ever need more than 100 amps and anything over that is a waste of money.... in the form of wire and supporting equipment. Of course this was 15 years ago and nobody was thinking about electric cars at that point. If you needed to charge a bunch of EVs then I could see needing a bigger service but that's the only reason. Especially at a small beach house.

Sparkies.... tell me if I am wrong.

In most small houses, 100a is plenty. Even with an EV, since charging is typically done at night when you aren't doing stuff like cooking or running a dryer.

My current house is 320a (dual 200a panels) and I think it is mainly for space. If I have the pool heater on, plus all three a/c's turn on, while a load of laundry is in the dryer and we are baking something, I could be looking at 120-150a, so still well below a 200a service, and it's quite unlikely all that stuff would be on at once.

 

[reader2580]

I am debating between 100 amp and 125 amp for my current detached garage and my new additional 24x60x16 garage. That is more amperage than is being suggested for a house. The reality is I could probably get by with the 70 amp feed to my existing garage unless I add A/C to my new garage.

 

[LOW1]

I am curious why you think a 100 amp service is too small?

By the looks of that panel, it's a fairly small house. In fact, it looks similar to the 100 amp Siemens panel in my 1000 sq ft house.... There is no possible way that I could ever need more than 100 amps. Even considering the 50 amp welding receptacle in my garage (which I will eventually use as an EV charger receptacle some day) I was doing some testing last fall and I had my entire house running on my backup generator.... I had at least one light turned on in every room including inside the garage, the front porch light on, the driveway light on, refrigerator running, 65" TV turned on, and I even had my 1.5 ton central AC running.... and I was only drawing like 3700 watts. (give or take. It wasn't much) That's a long way from the 24,000 watts I have available with my 100 amp breaker at 240 volts.

I was going to install a 200 amp service (when I removed the original 60 amp FPE panel. lol) and my friend who is a master electrician told me I was crazy. He said there is no possible way that I could ever need more than 100 amps and anything over that is a waste of money.... in the form of wire and supporting equipment. Of course this was 15 years ago and nobody was thinking about electric cars at that point. If you needed to charge a bunch of EVs then I could see needing a bigger service but that's the only reason. Especially at a small beach house.

Sparkies.... tell me if I am wrong.

Because if one decides to bury their service line I think they should consider possible future uses. We dont know the distance to the transformer for the OP but my sense is that its not very far. If so, there cant be much of a cost difference. I agree that if you are not going to bury the line that there is for now nothing broken to fix.