6 point vs. 12 point sockets

[The Toolest Guy]

Here's a picture representing what I have measured and said.
For the nut to spin freely inside the socket any material outside of the red circle must be removed. As you can see more material must be removed for the 6 point socket to allow the nut to spin than for the 12 point socket to allow the nut to spin.

Yes this is just a drawn picture. But if you go out and actually take the measurements yourself you will see I am right.
I didn't need to do this as I already knew I was right. But I took the measurements just because I knew everyone would doubt my FACTS other wise. Hell half of you still don't want to believe the physical measurements I have posted.

 

[gooseadrian]

I only own a couple sets of 12 point. I own a metric 3/8 set and a metric and standard 1/2 inch set. I only really use the 3/8 metric set though for small internal engine work on cummins engines.

 

[mrjaw14]

MODERN surface drive style 12pt that drive the flats are every bit as good as 6pt. This has been debated and verified over and over again. Notice the key word "modern". It has to drive the flats. so really this question should not be 6pt vs 12 pt, but modern 6pt vs 12pt. A modern 12pt won't strip a fastener, where as an old 6pt that drives the corners WILL strip a fastener. a modern 6pt that drives the flats won't strip a fastener, and neither will a modern 12pt. see the graphics below.

 

[bcradio]

12 pt is not as strong and does not grip as well as 6 pt, been debated a million times and tested a thousand.

Yes, but not with the same results as you posted. It varies from thread to thread.

 

[bcradio]

Hell half of you still don't want to believe the physical measurements I have posted.

The debate was over your math not your measurements.

 

[bob15]

I can't believe we still have idiots arguing about this. It is not about where the socket contacts the fastener. It is about the major and minor diameters.
Let us take a 19mm nut for example. The distance from flat to flat is approx 19mm. But the distance from point to point is around 21.939mm. This is using maths not measurements. Measurements will vary but everything I have measured is still over 21.8mm

Now we have to look at the socket. First a 19mm 6 point socket. The measurement from point to point is around 22mm. The measurement flat to flat is around 19.0xmm. This shows us the socket is going to fit on the nut.
Now a 19mm 12 point socket. The measurement point to point is around 22mm. But the measurement flat to flat is around 20mm. The smallest measurement I have from 5 different 19mm 12 point sockets is 19.9xmm, and the largest is 20.2xmm.

So for a 19mm 6 point socket to strip a 19mm nut you have to remove the material from it's 21.939mm corners. 21.939 - 19 = 2.939mm from the corner tip to the center that has to be removed or deformed.
A 19mm 12 point socket to strip a 19mm nut you have to remove the material from it's 21.939mm corners. Using the smallest measurement 21.939mm - 19.9mm = 2.093mm from the corner tip to the center that has to be removed or deformed.

As you can from the numbers they are over 40% different. This measurement of major and minor inside diameters of the sockets is also why a 6 point will often remove a heavily damaged socket that a 12 point just can't.

Whether the 6 point or 12 point contact at the same place before deformation of the nut or bolt is really irrelevant. As math shows the 6 point will remove fasteners with greater damage due to the smaller minor inside diameter.
Who cares if the fastener is damaged? You want it out so you can replace it. A 6 point will do that.

So it isn't about where the socket contacts the fastener? Yet all your math is trying to show just that, where it contacts the fastener. Try reading this: http://www.wrighttool.com/pdf_pages/wrightdrive.pdf

A modern 12 pt socket/wrench is as good as a modern 6 pt socket/wrench.

And Toolest, remember, the modern 6 pt design is also different than the old 6pt design tools. And can you explain why a 1st generation Metwrench socket removed rusted exhaust manifold bolts that a modern 6pt Snap On SAE and metric sockets were rounding off if it isn't about where the socket contacts the fastener?

 

[abvw]

So it isn't about where the socket contacts the fastener? Yet all your math is trying to show just that, where it contacts the fastener. Try reading this: http://www.wrighttool.com/pdf_pages/wrightdrive.pdf

A modern 12 pt socket/wrench is as good as a modern 6 pt socket/wrench.

And Toolest, remember, the modern 6 pt design is also different than the old 6pt design tools. And can you explain why a 1st generation Metwrench socket removed rusted exhaust manifold bolts that a modern 6pt Snap On SAE and metric sockets were rounding off if it isn't about where the socket contacts the fastener?

Wait until he mic's out a 12pt spline drive socket. By his logic the spline drive should strip and round everything

But it doesn't

 

[AutoTeck84]

Splines are great in my opinion. I know a lot of people don't trust them but they work good on stripped bolts. Why are all the ratchet wrenches going that direction if they are so bad?

 

[Billy738]

I personally like the six point but that's just because I use them the most.

 

[larry_g]

Hi Larry. If you have different measurements I would love to hear what you came up with. Of course every brand socket and nut/bolt will be different. But I doubt it will be different enough to prove what I said to be false.

Anyone that owns some vernier calipers or other measuring tool, 6 point sockets, and 12 point sockets can check for themselves. This should be pretty much all of Garage Journal.
Measure the largest diameter inside the sockets. 6 and 12 point should be the same. Then measure the minor diameter inside the sockets. The point from where the bolt/nut flat is.
The socket rotates around its center. So for the bolt or nut to stay still while the socket spins, then the bolt/nut must have a smaller major diameter (at the points) than the sockets minor diameter (what ever part of the socket is narrowest directly across from itself and passing through the center).
The only part I may have missed is elastic deformation of the socket and nut. But I think this is really irrelevant........

As you can from the numbers they are over 40% different

You might want to check the math behind the 40% number you posted....

lg
no neat sig line

 

[The Toolest Guy]

You might want to check the math behind the 40% number you posted....

lg
no neat sig line

I don't understand. Do you have your own calculations to show how I am wrong?
From point to centre 2.093mm needs to be removed for 12 point. 2.939mm for 6 point.
2.093 x 1.4 (aka +40%) = 2.9302 so it is more than 40%.

 

[larry_g]

I don't understand. Do you have your own calculations to show how I am wrong?
From point to centre 2.093mm needs to be removed for 12 point. 2.939mm for 6 point.
2.093 x 1.4 (aka +40%) = 2.9302 so it is more than 40%.

2.093/2.930= .71 or 29% loss

So your saying going from 12 point to 6 point is a 40% gain

I'm saying you lose 29% going from 6 pt to 12pt.

Neither is wrong, just making a point that how you approach a problem can skew the result.

Some day read the book " How to lie with statistics"

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Gmonkee]

I am wondering why miniscule numbers matter so much when fasteners vary so much in dimension.
You have to build tools that fit them all to make a saleable product.


But, battle on gents. It looks like fun to me.

 

[Wakefield]

Complicated integral calculus problem? Or might just weigh the 12 point and 6 point sockets that are being compared.

 

[Wakefield]

8-point sockets work best on 4-point bolts.

12mm 12-point shallow (sometimes flex) is common on dropping drive shafts.

Impact 12 point socket? (On 12 point bolt)

 

[DSLTRK]

Can't we all agree to just have BOTH sets in our boxes?

Surprised somebody hasn't broken out Solidworks and done a material stress test yet.

 

[DSLTRK]

Yes, but not with the same results as you posted. It varies from thread to thread.

Don't get the confusion, the 6 point has more contact area and more material, and obviously will last longer and is stronger.


Why is this so hard to grasp?

 

[BK13]

Can't we all agree to just have BOTH sets in our boxes?

Works for me! (and spline, and... LOL)

 

[saulvg99]

I have a mix of both but lately I've been trying to switch over to nothing but 6 point sockets. The only reason I would use a 12 point would be on a 12 point bolt. In a lab under optimal conditions with brand new bolts, the 12 and 6 point sockets my work the same. But in real life on rusty, seized bolts, I know that the 12 point socket will quickly strip the bolt, while the 6 point won't.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

 

[Gmonkee]

It is all about where the socket meets the six sides of the fastener. On corner or off corner are the choices.

Off corner will be better and those are modern tools . The inside of a modern socket has no flat surfaces rather six rounded panels. That is how off corner contact is achieved with them.

Beyond that tolerances vary with the fastener and the state of wear of the socket.

 

[gigamel]

All else being equal - modern shape or old shape - a 6 point socket will ALWAYS have less of a tendency to round the bolt - because a 12-point socket will slip after turning (rounding) the bolt 15 degrees - until then the bolt can't see the difference between 6 or 12 point - a 6-point will keep turning the bolt for another 15 degrees where it will slip at 30 degrees - think about it! - this is another way of saying what The Toolest Guy said.

Yes, spline is special - but imagine a 6-point spline as a 12-point with every second space between splines filled with metal - and the above still applies.

Metrinch are 6-points with narrow "flats" - and has no 12-point equal - except if you consider spline a 12-point version of Metrinch - but then the shape is not exactly the same.

And again yes, modern shape 12-point could be less likely to round bolts compared to old shape 6-point even if the old style 6-point doesn't slip until rounding 30 degrees - simply because the old style has a greater tendency to carve its way through the bolt metal by attacking the weakest point of the bolt, the corners - but if all else is equal 6-point always wins over 12-point.

Regards

 

[bmrtoyo]

I know, right?

I did the 'use the search' thing a couple of times until I realized that the search function *****, and your damned if you bring up an old thread, and damned if you start a new one.

i would rather rehash and old thread ,,than argue with a woman?

 

[pauls_workshop]

If you guys all keep arguing about this stuff, you will turn everyone on GJ into a WRENCH GUY who will throw away all his sockets!

- Paul

 

[monster1]

i would rather rehash and old thread ,,than argue with a woman?

It amazes me what some of these guys cry over. Who cares if it is an old thread. Maybe someone can gain some info from an old thread and not have to start a new one. And if they do, who cares?

 

[Musicinabottle]

For the life of me, I can't see why people get upset at the rehashing of a thread. This is after all a discussion forum. If you don't like whats being discussed stay off the thread. Its really simple. Just don't click on it. I guess when we run out of new issues to discuss we should just read through the archives.

What's more, a moderator could merge the two threads together, but I myself am surprised when someone is put off about the same thread starting up again. I never saw the other one or others. Just this one.

 

[Bighead38]

I've never seen someone who deals with rust argue in favor of 12 point. The 12 point sockets have their place but a 6 point wrench or socket is necessary when working on stuff in the rust belt.

 

[WildwoodChuck]

This is GJ. You obviously need both.

This is also where people bicth about resurrecting an old thread but also ***** about starting a new one...

That's because you really aren't allowed to have an opinion or ask a question until you have a thousand posts and only Snap-On tools. The post count must come from stroking everyone with complements in the Garage Sale, Green Snap-On ****, and Tool Box threads. Posts are limited to Nice, Great Score and 1 of 2 you *****. Don't ever question Snap-On is King, or post bang his wife.

Remember we are here simply to ask dumb questions and be ridiculed by the keyboard commandos, Commandos that are so excellent that they auction/garage sale and semi pro wrench simultaneously with Snap-On tool using one hand while posting "we already have this thread" to GJ with the other.

 

[cherrybomb]

I agree with the rust belt statement.I also have upgraded,because the manufacturers have spent a lot of testing on off corner engagement.A socket can wear and fail,especially if you really have to lean on it.A fresh one can sometimes prove what you can't see.Depending on what you work on,sometimes it pays to have choices and splurge on the tools that really are you problems.Sometimes a SO or Proto in that problem size will be a lifesaver and won't bust the budget.I've replaced sockets over the years as,in certain sizes as they do wear out.If it rounds something once,maybe the fastener,twice,it probably should be replaced,not necessarily the whole set.

 

[Infinia]

What's more, a moderator could merge the twoThousand threads together, but I myself am surprised when someone is put off about the same thread starting up again. I never saw the other one or others. Just this one.

There, fixed it for you.
ooohh moderators love to do all this extra work*
I noticed that all my big sockets are 12 pointers. Most of my smaller drive sockets are six. If you work with cheap or soft fasteners use 6point, don't apply large torque either!
Hardened steel big bolts can use 12 or 6 pt. I've seen larger hex fill plugs in brass or aluminum, if you deal with these perhaps buy a specialty 6pt socket.
Lots of rust and corrosion? custom fit sockets as you come across them, sometimes a smaller 12 point hammered on works better than a 6pt. YMMV or due to age factors the design has changed. Replace the bolt or nut as required ("be kind rewind")

* from my limited time here I'd reckon they'd sooner delete a thread than edit clean-up one.


so

 

[Briancapecoral]

I'm not sure about surface area, but I have felt the head of a bolt slip with a 12 point, then switch to a 6 point and not have any problems taking it off. I don't mind 12 point in 1/4" but anything larger I only buy 6 point.

 

[CR888]

As the fasteners get larger in size, the importance of a six point starts to diminish. I'd rather 12points in 1/2" & 3/4" and have 6 points in 1/4" & 3/8".......physics explain all this.

 

[Al Borland]

Six points are stronger, but only fit one way. 12 point gives you a little more flexibility with where the wrench handle ends up, and spline sockets exist solely to ruin fasteners.
If you deal with rusty fasteners, six points are the way to go.
In the end, it's personal preference. Get whatever floats your boat.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I don't mind merging threads, cleaning up threads or locking/deleting when the time comes.

However, I'm not going back through threads that have been dead for a year or more, much less quote a post from 10+ years ago so they can be merged.


I have 6 & 12 point sockets in my box. The deep wells I just bought from Sears are 12pt. I bought them for the car trailer because they a 18 piece set (9metric/SAE) for less than $20.

 

[d.mcfarland]

Six points are stronger, but only fit one way. 12 point gives you a little more flexibility with where the wrench handle ends up, and spline sockets exist solely to ruin fasteners.

This is awful logic.

 

[thooks]

Ooh! We get to do this thread AGAIN? Yay.

Who made you open it?

 

[kythri]

Who made you open it?

You're replying to a comment made 10 years ago...

Back to the original topic - my 12-point stuff came as part of an overall set.

Looking at how I've used my tools, I can't think that I've had any specific need for my 12-point chrome stuffs, but I'm glad I have it as a "second" set of sockets.

I reach for the 6-point first, but the 12-point has never failed me when I've used it (and, I have used it quite a bit).

 

[Cope]

For the life of me, I can't see why people get upset at the rehashing of a thread. This is after all a discussion forum. If you don't like whats being discussed stay off the thread. Its really simple. Just don't click on it. I guess when we run out of new issues to discuss we should just read through the archives.

Start a new thread on an old topic and piss off one faction. Dredge up an old thread and piss off another faction.

 

[ezover]

I prefer the 6 point sockets for their strength but when using a wrench the 12-points will get you on the fastener easier and give you more throw in tight situations.

this here. sometimes you do not have a lot of room and it easier to slip on a 12 point.

 

[Lassen Forge]

Just to get my wire brush out and take care of the rust from this 10 year old thread...

There are both 6 point fasteners and 12 point fasteners... if all you have are 6 point sockets, and come across a 12 point bolt or nut, you're hosed. IMO that's why they make 12 point sockets.

Now quick, someone put some clear lacquer, or at least a coat of Johnson's paste wax on this thing before it starts to rust... yet again...

 

[16again]

I also have 12 point in my tool box but, rarely do I find a need to use them.
Always use the 6 point, simply prefer them. Just bought a few Snap on socket sets, all 6 point.