6 point vs. 12 point

[Flash21]

What is your preference - for general purpose sockets? (non-impact)

I tried the search because I'm guess this has been discussed before...couldn't find anything due to the 3 char limit. Sorry if this has been discussed a bunch already.

I have mostly 12 point Cman sockets now...

Can someone share the advantages / disadvantages? I can see the advantages on box end wrenches for 12 point with limited room for the swing of the wrench. I'm not sure I see a big advantage on sockets...To me, 6 point sockets seem to be stronger and hold up longer.

My plan is to keep the 12 point Cmans and slowly add to them with 6 point sockets from Snap-On.

Any thoughts / comments?

Or, you can just answer this:

If you were going pull the trigger on a full set of Snap-On sockets in 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2"...would it be 6 or 12 point for you?

Thanks!!

 

[cruiser808]

6 point. I'll let the other GJ carnivores educate you on this one.

 

[wantedabiggergarage]

The Craftsman tool set that was on special a couple of days ago (now), is what I picked up last Christmas, as the first part of my replacement. (for my stolen tools) It was all 6 point.

Since you ALREADY have 12 point (assuming mostly SAE), then go 6 point. Six point is stronger. Now there are times where 12 point is mandated. Ford driveshafts, some Dodge Ram brakes, etc. Then buy yourself one set of 12 point metric for that. (if filling in metric, and buying once, I would consider impact grade metric stubbies)

IMHO, Gearwrenches, kinda killed off the old 6 point/12 point wrench argument. With them, you could spin your contact surface around. However they are out there (readily available) in 12 point.

 

[Nealcrenshaw]

6 points are better. 12 points are good for allowing you ratchet in tight areas. It wouldn't hurt to have both.

 

[48548]

In my experience and my fathers put together, we both think 6 points are the way to go, I have ruined to many rusted bolts and nuts because the 12 points rounded off a nut or bolt, but then again most of my sockets are 6 point craftsman and 12 point snap on. If the snap on few that I have less then 25 or so weren't free I wouldn't have paid for the 12 points. As for the 6 point I have never busted a craftsman socket yet and have great luck with them, I like snap on, but instead, use the money I save on the sockets to buy more snap on ratchets and snap on screwdrivers. Plus for the money of crafty 6 points I can have two sets or more for the cost of less than one snap on set.

 

[rsanter]

hard to decide
I like the 6 point but have full sets in both
I have to use the 12 pts on my 12 pt bolts (and I love the look of the 12 point fasteners)

I have some spare sets of 6 and 12 point Cman sockets I can sell off

bob

 

[Flash21]

Thanks for the advice -

My socket inventory consists of

3/8" 12 point short and deeps in 12 point Cman SAE & metric

1/4" 6 point short Cman SAE & metric

1/2" 12 point short and deep SAE

I don't have any 1/2" metric...I just picked up some Snap-On 6 point 3/8" drive deep and I can definetely see the quality difference. Some of my older Cman 12 points are starting to show their wear.


So a good strategy is to keep the Cman sockets in 12 point and use them when necessary and when I buy new to stick with 6 point.

That is what I suspected the consensus would be but I thought I would confirm.

Other thoughts / opinions appreciated....

 

[Merkava_4]

From what I see, all you need is 1/4" deeps in standard and metric.

 

[Flash21]

From what I see, all you need is 1/4" deeps in standard and metric.

Yeah, but Merkava, they aren't Snap-On and they aren't 6 point!! Hey man, I only have you to blame for this transition I feel coming on.

After seeing the quality you could say I 'have the bug'. Plus, like I said, some of my older Cman 12 points are showing their age.

I want to pick up a 2nd had 144TMPB in perfect condition for a good price - somewhere under $250 shipped. That would solve my 1/4" dilema, right there with some T72 goodness.

 

[Flash21]

From what I see, all you need is 1/4" deeps in standard and metric.

Do not many people find a need for 1/2" metric? I personally can't say that I've run into a need for them yet - I mostly work on chev, jeep, HD, etc.

KL

 

[Moose-LandTran]

Do not many people find a need for 1/2" metric? I personally can't say that I've run into a need for them yet - I mostly work on chev, jeep, HD, etc.

KL

If you work on European/Japanese cars you'll need them.

 

[Flash21]

If you work on European/Japanese cars you'll need them.

Likely in my future...

 

[speed bump]

Do not many people find a need for 1/2" metric? I personally can't say that I've run into a need for them yet - I mostly work on chev, jeep, HD, etc.

KL

I really only use 1/2" drive on car suspension stuff anyway so thats the only place I have found a use for it just becuase it bigger.

Personally I have decided that for my go to sockets I should have my sets equipped in this manner.

1/4" drive all 6 point since it seems little 12 points are just to easy to round things with.
3/8" drive anything bigger than 1/2" seems fine unless your talking about a very stuborn bolt.
1/2", 3/4" 1" etc drive I prefer 12 point for hand drive since your getting into bigger sizes that you get alot of grip with a 12 point anyway. For impacts 6 point all the way.

 

[Flash21]

1/2", 3/4" 1" etc drive I prefer 12 point for hand drive since your getting into bigger sizes that you get alot of grip with a 12 point anyway.

Good point; I hadn't thought about how the relative size of the socket may have bearing on the 6 point vs. 12 point decision


Do any of you professional techs buy 12 point for increased efficiency -- getting sockets on fasteners quicker?

 

[ni[x]it]

If you're talking about high quality sockets like Snap~On, it makes no difference

I wonder what fanciful technology Snap on is using to make their 12 point sockets better then their 6 point. I can't wait to hear the justification used for overpriced, under warrantied sockets, that feature the same mechanical advantages of any other 12 point socket.

(please dont run off and talk about how snap on uses fancy metals, or imbeds fingernails from canadian quartz quary toads, as it's irrelevant to the posters original question.)

 

[dxdexter]

If anyone has done any amount of work on a wide assortment of vehicles or machinery then they would pick 12 point if they could only have only one set of sockets. I now have both 6 and 12 point in 1/2" and 3/8" drive. The first time your balls deep into a job and run into a 12 point fastener you will see what I mean. They have a way of showing up at the most inopportune times.

I have already required 12 point sockets several times this summer. The drive shaft on my F-150 and the brake caliper on my Harley. A box end wrench will get you by sometimes, but a trip to the tool store is usually in order. I had to do just that, when my 12mm, 12 point was missing last week.

When I worked as a mechanic for 10 years, my 1/2" and 3/4" drive sets were only 12 point, excluding impacts.

At the very least you should own 8mm to 13mm and 5/16" to 9/16", twelve point. These seem to be the most popular head sizes I have encountered.

 

[Fedwrench]

I only use 12 point sockets on spline type fasteners. I use 6 point sockets on just about everything else. I only own a small set of 3/8 drive impact metric 12 point sockets. Six point sockets are stronger and have less chance of damaging fasteners. There is no access advantage in using 12 point sockets over 6 point sockets as the ratchet or drive handle does the moving not the socket. For conventional wrenches there is a positioning advantage with 12 point over 6 points but, not with sockets.

 

[MAD]

I remember once back when I was still working as a mechanic, one of the guys in the shop borrowed a 1/4" drive 12 point socket from the cheap Kmart set that I kept in my Truck. No one in the shop had 12 point 1/4" drive sockets and he needed one to do the job.

I will usually grab 6 point sockets for six sided fasteners, but when I can't see the bolt and have to poke around with a long extension to get the socket on, a 12 point is preferred.

The clutch pressure plate bolts on some VWs are 9 mm 12 point. Not the most common size but when you need 'em, you need 'em.

 

[wantedabiggergarage]

Non impact, but yet another reason to keep your eye on those 263 piece socket sets, in the red and black plastic case at Sears. Got one when the CC fell on the same day as a friends and family sale (rare that two sales overlap). Cost me $159 and pretty well have all sizes covered in 6 and 12 point.

 

[georgiadave]

An alternative is the splined socket from Wright Tool. The socket does not bear on the corners of the fastener, but in the center of the flats. Very clever design.

 

[dxdexter]

I only use 12 point sockets on spline type fasteners.

That's my point exactly. When you have no 12 points and you're looking at a drawer full of expensive sockets and not one will work, it really ***** hard. Been there done that.

I just found more 12 points on my H-D. The head bolts are 1/2", 12pt.

 

[Kevin54]

With a 6 point you have more surface area to grab with vs. a 12 point. With a 12 point you are bbasically splitting your surface contact area in half. If it is a 12 point nut or bolt, then by all means a 12 pt. is better suited no doubt, but most nuts are 6 sided, so a 6 pt. gives you contact all around. A 12 pt. on a 6 sided nut, gives you 6 other areas not making contact.

 

[eschoendorff]

The quality of most 12 point sockets nowadays is likely adequate for any fasteners you will encounter. 6 pts will, however, make you feel a little more confident. Here's what i did:

I already had a lot of 12 point chrome sockets (3/8 and 1/2 drive in metric and SAE). When I found a great deal on 6 point sockets, I bought them up. All of my impact sockets are 6 point though. And to be honest, I use my impact sockets WAY more than my chromes - whether by hand or on air tools.

IMHO, a good set of 6 point impact sockets will take you a long way. Very versatile sockets. Oh, and BTW, most of mine are Taiwan or China impact sockets and they all have the "flank drive" characteristics... and they have all served my quite well. I did buy Craftsman and Snap On impact sockets in my most used sizes and - guess what - you'll NEVER know the difference between the China/Taiwan sockets and teh Snap On/Craftsman ones in actual use.

My .02.

 

[billymade]

What about how the higher quality sockets fit the fastener; don't they fit better then the asian import sockets?

 

[kvom]

12 points come in handy to turn 4-sided taps when you can't find the tap driver or you have a large tap. They can also be useful for difficult square nuts.

 

[48548]

I guess after reading this, I realized that again I would never own a 12 point socket if I had to pay for them. But when I need a 12 point that is where the gear wrenches or just plain wrenches comes in to play for me. I have a sparta set and p&c deep sae 1/2 12 point, but prefer my hf 1/2 impacts instead because of the 6 point. I do have a 1/4 drive snap on set with metric and sae, but they are 12 point, I actually prefer to use my craftsman 6 point set or proto 6 point set. By luck 1/4 aren'tas tight as 3/8 drive most of the time and I haven't ruined anything yet. I guess if you have the room and money get both, but for me I don't have enough of either so I went with 6 point and haven't had a problem. And for the times I need more than 6 points(which I can't think of a time this has happened to me yet), I do have the wrenches to use.

 

[wantedabiggergarage]

What about how the higher quality sockets fit the fastener; don't they fit better then the asian import sockets?

For hand tools.
Truth be told, in my real world experience no. A lot (not all) of the Asian import ones, are cheaper metal (bubbles, weaker, etc), and won't hold up on an air tool (may or may not be abuse, air ratchets, verses impact), impact driver, etc.. But this may also go back to the loose wrench/tight wrench symptoms.

In the real world, most of the stuff you work on has some rust, or grime, etc. that effects the outside diameter of the socket/wrench. It is a good reason to keep your older (well made) import wrenches. With sockets, you normally go up one MM (or switch to a metric).

 

[eschoendorff]

What about how the higher quality sockets fit the fastener; don't they fit better then the asian import sockets?

Truthfully? Nope. Not at all. Even the HF sockets are finished decently. Aside from the very cheapest sets (and some of the 3/4 and 1" drive sets) all of the sockets at HF taht I have seen are actually every bit as well-fit as my Craftsman or Snap On sockets. I bought both to see what the big differences are.... and so far, the biggest difference is that the Snap On and Craftsman impact sockets develop surface rust WAY quicker than the Taiwan/China ones... go figure. My Snap On/Craftsman impacts spend time rotating in an out of a transmission fluid bath to keep the surface rust at bay. My China/Taiwan sockets simply sit in their cases ready to go.

Extensions, on the other hand, seem to be a little bit better from the USA companies. Not tons, but they seem to mushroom a little slower than the import ones.

 

[paramudduck]

With the lack of quality in most fasteners any more who can tell?

 

[eschoendorff]

With the lack of quality in most fasteners any more who can tell?

Definitely!

 

[a390st]

Extensions, on the other hand, seem to be a little bit better from the USA companies. Not tons, but they seem to mushroom a little slower than the import ones.

If you knew how many piece of junk Asian extensions we broke at my old job you would die. I found the Craftsman ones to be alright, but this is one area where spending the money for Snap On pays off. I haven't broken a Snap On extension, yet. I wore a few out pretty bad, but they lived a HARD life.

I like 12 point for tight spots and 12 point head fasteners. You will come across them where you least expect it. For me, there is no way that a mechanic's tools are complete without a full set of 6 and 12 point. I have both in wrenches and sockets, and wouldn't have it any other way. It just amounts to saving yourself trips to the store or waiting for the truck to come around, and that is worth it to me. That's especially true in a small shop where someone may not be around to loan you what you need.

I have had both US made and Asian impact sockets. The US made ones seem to fit a little better. I didn't break too many Asian ones, and they were used hard. I was always surprised at how well they lasted. I will say that I dislike broken fasteners, so for me, better fit is worth the expense. Maybe that is because of dealing with big equipment and bolts. It says something that my go to ratchet was a Snap On 1/2" high strength or the Snap On or Matco breaker bar. To be honest, the only time I even used a 3/8" ratchet was on the trucks, and even then I felt "undergunned".

And just for informational purposes, if you need to weld some tools together to make something special, stick with Craftsman or higher. The Asian ones were really hard to weld, and it seemed like the more expensive the tool, the easier it was to weld. We had to make a couple of crazy things that you can't buy, but I don't want to admit anything more.

 

[Flash21]

Thanks for all of the points and suggestions guys, interesting conversation.

My socket inventory is currently almost all 12 point. I'm plan to slowly upgrade some of my sockets to something of higher quality, when the price is right.

The questions I'm wrestling with is do I upgrade 12 point to 12 point? Or upgrade 12 point to 6 point?

My plan, right now, is to buy the higher quality sockets in 6 point and keep the 12 point for when I must have 12 point. In general use, I would grab the 6 points...unless I need the 12s.

The point of this thread was to see if someone could make an argument to buy the higher quality sockets in 12 point and use 12 point on everything.

Does anyone have an argument for that?

 

[Flash21]

IMHO, a good set of 6 point impact sockets will take you a long way. Very versatile sockets.

That is an interesting thought! That has me thinking...

Keep the chrome 12 point sockets and buy the 6 point sockets in shallow, impact. I can DEFINETLY see the benefit on this approach for 1/2" drive. Not so sure of 3/8" drive

hmmm.....That is why I love this board! Anyone have any other comments on eschoendorff's suggestion?

 

[v8garage]

If you're talking about high quality sockets like Snap~On, it makes no difference; the 12 points come in handy for 12 point fasteners though.

6 points are better on old rusty,rounded off, beat up fasteners. Doesn't have anything to do with whether they are Snap-On or not, but as always the Snap-On guys have to find some way bring their brand into the discussion.

 

[Flash21]

6 points are better on old rusty,rounded off, beat up fasteners. Doesn't have anything to do with whether they are Snap-On or not, but as always the Snap-On guys have to find some way bring their brand into the discussion.

hey v8garage - I mentioned Snap-On in the 1st post....

Thanks for the advice. I don't 'normally' work on old rusty,rounded off, beat up fasteners. BUT, just when you say that you run into one!!

The idea of just adding impact in shallow has me thinking...for 1/2" drive. I already have 1/2" SAE and Metric Deep sockets (Cman) that are working well. Maybe I'll just add 1/2" SAE and Metric shallow.

 

[Moose-LandTran]

I prefer 6-point. As for 12-point for tight spaces, turn the ratchet one notch and you've lost your use for them. That said, i am looking to buy a set of shallow 3/8" metric 12-points for the occasional 12-point bolt i come across on the cars at work. i rarely find a need for 12-point, so my 6-points do the job just fine.

I also have a nice new scar on my arm from where a 12-point slipped off at a time it shouldn't have.

 

[Danglerb]

The best thing about having some cheap HF sockets around is that you don't give a rats behind about them, so using a hammer to slip one over a nasty bolt is no issue.

12 point socket is nice when you are going in blind, they slip right on orienting themselves where a 6 point needs coaxed on like opening a safe sometimes.

 

[WSMC633]

I have full runs of SAE and Metric in 6 and 12 Point 3/8, and 1/2" Shallow. My 1/4" are all 6 point. All of my deeps are 6 point in all drive sizes. All of my impacts are 6 point as well. The Kit in my Engine/suspension room is all 6 point sockets for all drive sizes, and all of the wrenches are 6 point. If I need a 12 point for something I just go grab it out of one of the kits in the shop.

I always reach for a 6 point as I prefer the way the grip fasteners. However, I wouldn't give up having the 12 points around because every now and then you just need one!

BTW; what are you guys doing that breaks so many tools? I wrench pretty much 7 days a week, granted mostly on bikes, but it's not rare for me to be underneath someone's' truck, car, racecar etc. etc. I've broken 2 sockets and one ratchet and one torque wrench in my life. Both Sockets I knew were going to brake as they were 3/8" spark plug sockets on a 1/2" impact. But they were the only thing that would fit in the wheel to get the lugs off. Drove them over to Sears and got them replaced no Questions asked. 1/4" C-Man Ratchet, Well it was a piece of ****, and a Snap-on Torque wrench. That was when I learned the Snap-On Warranty meant go F-Yourself.
But I digress.....

So to answer the Original posters question, I prefer 6 Point, but would not want to be without the 12 point. Buy both if you can or buy 6 point and supplement it with 12 points in a single drive size if you're on a budget.

 

[paramudduck]

Personally I prefer the 6 points. If it's a decent American made brand, I've really never seen that much difference in them. I won't go into imports, there are just too many variations within the same brand for sweeping statements.

I have complete sets in both styles. The 6 get the most use.

As for breaking tools I some times believe it is more a hidden fault in the tool then any thing. But if you are talking 10 mm sockets. They just hate me.

 

[GDA]

From all the reading on this board and talking to my friends and if I had to start a tool collection from scratch, I would get 6pts in all sizes needed for 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 drives. Depending on what you work on.... I would get some CMan 12pts to supplement those from midsize 1/4 to moderate sizes in 1/2 drive - like 8mm to 24mm.

As an example, my LR Discovery has some 12pt fasteners in 13mm and 19mm that I have had to deal with so far. The location of the 13mm on rear brakes require short 3/8 drive stuff. The front 19mm caliper bolts require 1/2 drive due to the 70+ lb ft torque settings. As mentioned above, you dont need them much but when you do its nice to have a full set around. I got all mine used off ebay over the past couple years.