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6 point vs. 12 point

eschoendorff

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One caution about using impact sockets as your primary 6 points: impact sockets generally have thicker walls and may not be able to get into as tight spaces as chrome 6 point sockets. Then again, it's really never been a problem for me... and I have chrome 3/8 6 point sockets in metric and SAE. I still reach for my impacts first anyway though....
 
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dxdexter

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6 points are better on old rusty,rounded off, beat up fasteners.

This is usually correct, but if people are working on old beat off rusty fasteners all the time then my experience is that most of the time you have to use a hammer to pound on the tightest socket that will fit no matter what the original size was or weather it is metric or standard, 6 or 12 point, it doesn't matter as long as it fits tight enough not to slip. I have even had fasteners that were so disfigured that only an lower sized 12 point with the additional "play" would fit. Sometimes the bolt head will actually be shaped by the socket as its pounded over its head. I know that's abuse, but you have to do what you have to do.


As a side note, I just came home from Canadian Tire (Canadian automotive parts/tool supplier) and there were absolutely no 12 point sockets in the store. Its almost like 12 point is a specialty tool now-a-days. The stores are catering to the home owner crowd that bring their tools out a few times a year to tighten a bolt on the lawnmower or drive in a few lag bolts and wouldn't know what to do with a 12 pt fastener if they saw one, except take it to the dealer.
 

eschoendorff

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If you have an old, worn, rusty, crusty, hateful bolt and don't want to damage a nicer socket, these bolt extractors can be used with hand ratchets, impact wrenches, and air ratchets; hexagonal flats for use with flat wrench, pliers, adjustable wrench, sockets or VISE-GRIP locking pliers.

http://www.irwin.com/irwin/consumer/jhtml/browse.jhtml?catId=IrwinCat100511

Damn! You beat me to it! :lol:

Those are the things to use on rounded fasteners. I don't get the 6 point/12 point argument when considering old or rusted fasteners. Either they grip or they don't. I guess some will feel more confident with the 6 point on a rust fastener... but the interior points of a 12 point contact the flats of a fastener too. I just don't see how either 6 or 12 can round a fastener now that just about every socket contacts a fastener on teh flats instead of the corners...

That said, I still reach for my 6 points first - mostly because I like them.
 

dxdexter

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If you have an old, worn, rusty, crusty, hateful bolt and don't want to damage a nicer socket, these bolt extractors can be used with hand ratchets, impact wrenches, and air ratchets; hexagonal flats for use with flat wrench, pliers, adjustable wrench, sockets or VISE-GRIP locking pliers.

http://www.irwin.com/irwin/consumer/jhtml/browse.jhtml?catId=IrwinCat100511

I really like those bolt extractors. Finally something that may actually work for a change. Vise grips aren't normally worth a damn on extremely tight bolts that have the head stripped especially in tight areas.
 

Merkava_4

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6 points are better on old rusty,rounded off, beat up fasteners. Doesn't have anything to do with whether they are Snap-On or not,

Yes it does; or at least it did when SO had the exclusive patent rights to Flank Drive. Even now, I think you'll find the SO sockets having a more accurate fit than some of their competitors.
 

speed bump

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Yes it does; or at least it did when SO had the exclusive patent rights to Flank Drive. Even now, I think you'll find the SO sockets having a more accurate fit than some of their competitors.

You know I wondered about that at one time and so I got out the mics and discovered that as far as I could tell other than the really cheap chrome sockets they were all so close together that it wasn't worth splitting hairs over.


I am interested in seeing if SO sockets are harder than anybody elses though. So when I find time I am going to take a pile of different sockets to school and play with the Rockwell Hardness Tester.
 

GDA

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Yes it does; or at least it did when SO had the exclusive patent rights to Flank Drive. Even now, I think you'll find the SO sockets having a more accurate fit than some of their competitors.

Ya ya ya whatever.... I seriously doubt the "some of their competitors" comment. There is just no way that brands such as Facom, Beta, Hazet Stahlwille, Proto et al have a less accurate fit than SO. Some fly by night tool maker who sells 3/8 socket sets for less than $10; maybe then I would agree with that statement.

BTW - better get back to mixing some in the kitchen because your Kool Aid pitcher is empty :lol_hitti
 

GDA

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If you have an old, worn, rusty, crusty, hateful bolt and don't want to damage a nicer socket, these bolt extractors can be used with hand ratchets, impact wrenches, and air ratchets; hexagonal flats for use with flat wrench, pliers, adjustable wrench, sockets or VISE-GRIP locking pliers.

http://www.irwin.com/irwin/consumer/jhtml/browse.jhtml?catId=IrwinCat100511


Uh oh, this thread is going to dip into my wallet. :lol_hitti Now I have another tool to add to the want list!

What the general recommendation on the package (sets) to get?
 

eschoendorff

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Uh oh, this thread is going to dip into my wallet. :lol_hitti Now I have another tool to add to the want list!

What the general recommendation on the package (sets) to get?

I have the Irwins.. but a lot of Irwin stuff is being made offshore now. Hard to tell anymore. I would seriously look at the Craftsman version of these. Made in USA and cost effective and available in decent sized sets...
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00952062000P?mv=rr
 

speed bump

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Uh oh, this thread is going to dip into my wallet. :lol_hitti Now I have another tool to add to the want list!

What the general recommendation on the package (sets) to get?

If you watch the sales you can pick up the craftsmans for next to nothing.
 

MAD

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Merkava_4

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There is just no way that brands such as Facom, Beta, Hazet Stahlwille, Proto et al have a less accurate fit than SO.

When I said "some of their competitors," I wasn't directly referring to Facom, Beta, Hazet Stahlwille, or Proto; I was referring to some of their competitors that really aren't their competitors.
 

Vinko

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Truthfully? Nope. Not at all. Even the HF sockets are finished decently. Aside from the very cheapest sets (and some of the 3/4 and 1" drive sets) all of the sockets at HF taht I have seen are actually every bit as well-fit as my Craftsman or Snap On sockets. I bought both to see what the big differences are.... and so far, the biggest difference is that the Snap On and Craftsman impact sockets develop surface rust WAY quicker than the Taiwan/China ones... go figure. My Snap On/Craftsman impacts spend time rotating in an out of a transmission fluid bath to keep the surface rust at bay. My China/Taiwan sockets simply sit in their cases ready to go.

Extensions, on the other hand, seem to be a little bit better from the USA companies. Not tons, but they seem to mushroom a little slower than the import ones.

I wonder too, if the bigger concern isn't import vs. quality-US/German-whatever sockets, but the quality of the fastener?

At least I found this to be the case when I went from USA Grade 8 bolts to "supposed" Grade 8 Chinese, before switching back.
 

Vinko

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Ya ya ya whatever.... I seriously doubt the "some of their competitors" comment. There is just no way that brands such as Facom, Beta, Hazet Stahlwille, Proto et al have a less accurate fit than SO. Some fly by night tool maker who sells 3/8 socket sets for less than $10; maybe then I would agree with that statement.

BTW - better get back to mixing some in the kitchen because your Kool Aid pitcher is empty :lol_hitti


Just in general, is there any study that show the quality and specific properties of the tool steel that each company uses? Truth be told, I love the Snap chroming and general aesthetics, but I wonder if they're really superior in steel and tolerances of say, a 1/2 inch socket, compared to that of a Proto.
 

ni[x]it

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When I said "some of their competitors," I wasn't directly referring to Facom, Beta, Hazet Stahlwille, or Proto; I was referring to some of their competitors that really aren't their competitors.

If you have nothing to add to the thread (and you haven't from your first
reply in this thread), then please refrain from posting.
Thanks!
 

Moose-LandTran

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I do wonder about whether this "flank drive" thing works. I mean, all my sockets have the rounded corners, as so to drive off the flats. But does this make any difference? With sharp corners in the sockets, they still have to touch the flats. My wrenches are 12-point with sharp corners and they don't round anything.

:confused:
 
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a390st

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Just in general, is there any study that show the quality and specific properties of the tool steel that each company uses? Truth be told, I love the Snap chroming and general aesthetics, but I wonder if they're really superior in steel and tolerances of say, a 1/2 inch socket, compared to that of a Proto.

Grind the chrome off a number of old sockets. Try to weld them to a piece of mild steel. When we had to do this, none of the Asian imports would work without getting fancy with rod selection. From Craftsman on up did fine. I think we tried four or five brands of socket. By "we", I mean the hired help who did this without asking me and ran into the office to show me the results. That was an expensive day for sockets and welding rods.
 

eschoendorff

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Grind the chrome off a number of old sockets. Try to weld them to a piece of mild steel. When we had to do this, none of the Asian imports would work without getting fancy with rod selection. From Craftsman on up did fine. I think we tried four or five brands of socket. By "we", I mean the hired help who did this without asking me and ran into the office to show me the results. That was an expensive day for sockets and welding rods.

How long ago was this? I ask because I have seen a marked increase in the quality of products coming over from China (specifically the socket sets at HF) within the last few years...
 

a390st

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That would have been in 2004 or early 2005. The Asian sockets would have been about two years old at the time.
 

v8garage

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Damn! You beat me to it! :lol:

Those are the things to use on rounded fasteners. I don't get the 6 point/12 point argument when considering old or rusted fasteners. Either they grip or they don't. I guess some will feel more confident with the 6 point on a rust fastener... but the interior points of a 12 point contact the flats of a fastener too. I just don't see how either 6 or 12 can round a fastener now that just about every socket contacts a fastener on teh flats instead of the corners...

That said, I still reach for my 6 points first - mostly because I like them.

75% of the stuff I work on is 50 years old or older. I am 54 years old and started working on old tractors, trucks and cars when I was 9 years old. Still working on them 45 years later. Sometimes these old fasteners aren't ruined they are just stubborn but need to be saved and reused. I also want to note here that the parts and fastener stock for this old equipment is often a parts vehicle that has bolts and nuts that have been in place for 70-80 yrs. It has been my experience that a 6 point wrench or socket is a lot less likely to round off and ruin these fasteners than a 12 point (less busted knuckles also). That's my experience, yours may vary.:)
 
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Frank Elson

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Do these Irwin type things really work?
I've seen them and, working on 20+ old Land Rovers, thought that they might be a good idea. Expensive over here tho so it would be nice to hear real experiences.
Been drilling out, welding nut heads etc to messed up bolts for many a year.
 

Merkava_4

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If you have nothing to add to the thread (and you haven't from your first
reply in this thread), then please refrain from posting.
Thanks!

No problem! If everyone will go back and delete their quotes of my posts, I'll go back and delete all of my posts; it'll be like I was never here. :thumbup:
 

dxdexter

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No problem! If everyone will go back and delete their quotes of my posts, I'll go back and delete all of my posts; it'll be like I was never here. :thumbup:

Hey Merk, it looks like someone doesn't share your zest for Snap-on's superiority.
Oh damn, I quoted you. Sorry it won't happen again (in this thread, maybe). :lol_hitti
 

eschoendorff

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If you have nothing to add to the thread (and you haven't from your first
reply in this thread), then please refrain from posting.
Thanks!

Oh hell... now I need to go dig up some of my noob jpgs...


Here's a classic for ya....

stfu_noob.jpg
 

billymade

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Has anyone compared the quality of the IRWIN tools to the Craftsman "bolt out"; they look like they are pretty similar!
 

eschoendorff

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Has anyone compared the quality of the IRWIN tools to the Craftsman "bolt out"; they look like they are pretty similar!

Yes, I have and here is what I have come up with....

The Irwins are made out of a light-colored metal and the Craftsmans are made out of a dark-colored metal. Other than that, they both work pretty well...
 

v8garage

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Direct quote from the Wikipedia.....sums it up pretty well IMO.:) To see the complete write up look up "socket wrench" (Which by the way was invented and patented in 1863).



" 6-point vs 12-point
Modern nuts and bolt heads are made with hexagonal gripping surfaces and as such limit the number of positions a wrench can adopt when placed over them. Sockets are produced in 6-point (hexagonal) and 12-point (double-hexagonal) configurations. When working in a confined area with limited turning space, 12-point sockets double the number of starting positions. 6-point sockets, however, offer a better grip on fittings and are less likely to slip and round off the corners with continued use and are generally preferred for damaged nuts and bolts. Simply stated: 12-point sockets are faster, six-point sockets are more secure. The majority of good quality "homeowner" socket sets come with 12-point sockets, which are perfectly adequate for almost all uses. Professional mechanics will generally prefer the 6-points sockets."
 
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Flash21

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Direct quote from the Wikipedia.....sums it up pretty well IMO.:) To see the complete write up look up "socket wrench" (Which by the way was invented and patented in 1863).



" 6-point vs 12-point
Modern nuts and bolt heads are made with hexagonal gripping surfaces and as such limit the number of positions a wrench can adopt when placed over them. Sockets are produced in 6-point (hexagonal) and 12-point (double-hexagonal) configurations. When working in a confined area with limited turning space, 12-point sockets double the number of starting positions. 6-point sockets, however, offer a better grip on fittings and are less likely to slip and round off the corners with continued use and are generally preferred for damaged nuts and bolts. Simply stated: 12-point sockets are faster, six-point sockets are more secure. The majority of good quality "homeowner" socket sets come with 12-point sockets, which are perfectly adequate for almost all uses. Professional mechanics will generally prefer the 6-points sockets."

If the first reply to this thread would have been that, nothing else would have had to have been said! Whoever wrote that pretty much summed up this entire thread. Thanks
 

dxdexter

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Direct quote from the Wikipedia.....sums it up pretty well IMO.:) To see the complete write up look up "socket wrench" (Which by the way was invented and patented in 1863).



" 6-point vs 12-point
Modern nuts and bolt heads are made with hexagonal gripping surfaces and as such limit the number of positions a wrench can adopt when placed over them. Sockets are produced in 6-point (hexagonal) and 12-point (double-hexagonal) configurations. When working in a confined area with limited turning space, 12-point sockets double the number of starting positions. 6-point sockets, however, offer a better grip on fittings and are less likely to slip and round off the corners with continued use and are generally preferred for damaged nuts and bolts. Simply stated: 12-point sockets are faster, six-point sockets are more secure. The majority of good quality "homeowner" socket sets come with 12-point sockets, which are perfectly adequate for almost all uses. Professional mechanics will generally prefer the 6-points sockets."


As you said in another thread "you need both"

This forum is just as valid as Wikipedia and perhaps more so because of diverse opinions expressed by people with experience. That is just one persons opinion posted or cut and pasted to a "public encyclopedia" and not taking into account advances in socket technology or versatility.

The last sentence in the quote could not be farther from the truth. In fact in present day most homeowners sets are almost exclusively 6 point. It may have been the reverse 30 years ago when most mechanics didn't have the vast assortment of tools they have today.Just go and look through old tool catalogs and you will see that unless they consider Snap-on, Williams,Gray Tools, and Proto to be homeowner tools, then almost all their sets were offered predominantly in 12 point. My guess is due to the versatility of the socket design as it could be used on most fastener types at the time (12, 6,and 4)

My contention is if you can have only one set then make it 12 point or better yet get both.

BTW don,t believe everything you read in Wikipedia. Any one of us could have written that whole section with our particular point of view and got it published if it sounded like we knew what we were taking about.
 
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eschoendorff

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As you said in another thread "you need both"

This forum is just as valid as Wikipedia and perhaps more so because of diverse opinions expressed by people with experience. That is just one persons opinion posted or cut and pasted to a "public encyclopedia" and not taking into account advances in socket technology or versatility.

Actually, I would say that this forum is actually more valid. For obvious reasons.

Not that I discount Wikipedia. In many cases, Wikipedia has some really great articles... you just have to use your common sense.
 

MAD

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Has anyone compared the quality of the IRWIN tools to the Craftsman "bolt out"; they look like they are pretty similar!

I suspect they are both made by AJ manufacturing. I know AJ makes the bolt out branded ones for Sears and holds this patent:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6729208.html

AJ also makes the impact flip sockets for Sears. I am pretty sure that many of the American made "Torque stick" extensions are AJ as well.

http://www.ajmanufacturing.com/
 
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Flash21

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No disrespect guys -- I'm hanging our here for a reason. I value you your opinion and I appreciate all of the comments and information. I was just trying to say I thought it was a nice Executive Summary of this thread.
 
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