Thanks for your opinion, even though it's wrong. I'll be sure to forward it to SIX YEARS AGO when this thread was relevant.
6 point vs. 12 point
- Thread starter OctaneMotorsports
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flashman
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toolmaker1
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+1, well said
Slingshot Engage
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It's surprising how many people have no idea what sizes are what. I'm working on a 2000 Toyota, pass me a 9/16. Derp.
AgencyLife
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Really? :tard:
Relevant? You may want to actually read this thread.
It's a great topic and it's been one of those things I have heard opinions on and discussed for years.
That is the point of this website!!!
You should contribute in a more positive ways then almost 2 years with only 210 posts of bull like this.
AgencyLife
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Hell yeah!
I remember people talking about this stuff from the days when I was still "borrowing" tools from my family at 10yrs old to build go carts out of lawn mower engines.
AgencyLife
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Well lets see I have damm near paid off a house, put a kid through vet school and work on my cars on weekends at wiil using Craftsman tools. Have never had to stop in the middle of a job due to a craftsman tool failure!! Never broken a single tool!!! EVER!!! I cant stand the feel of Craftsman RP ratchets so I do have a wide choice of diffrent brands of racthets. The only sockets I own are Craftsman and they work just fine for me. Have I ever rounded off a nut or bolt head, yep I have, Im as guilty as most that have ever held a tool in their hand and used it and 99 % of the time it was my fault and mine alone. The socket / wrench didnt do it , I did it by rushing or not paying attention to what I was doing!!! I have both 6 pt and 12 pt sockets. If I only had a choice of one I would chose 6 pt over the 12 pt. I use tools to preform work as req'd , I dont sit and look at them admiring their chrome!!! What the hell is that about??? Its a tool!!!
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TwoInch
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i feel that 6pt and 12pt are almost always interchangeable, as long as the fastener is in good shape, meaning someone hasnt used the wrong size tool on previously and that its not rusted/corroded to where its inbetween sizes now. on a fastener that is in good shape, they both grab the same section of the flat side of the fastener, again as long as you got the right size tool on it.
if a fastener is buggered up, and i dont feel a wrench or socket is getting a solid grab, ill move onto another method before its a lost cause and you gotta start torching and cutting. with light/medium pressure, you can feel if the socket is binding and coming over the point of the fastener by applying pressure and releasing pressure. if it sticks, you need to pay closer attention to what is happening. if it releases without sticking, you are getting a good grab at it. paying attention to that before you give it full torque trying to get something off can help from rounding in many cases in my experience. pretty basic though.
if a fastener is buggered up, and i dont feel a wrench or socket is getting a solid grab, ill move onto another method before its a lost cause and you gotta start torching and cutting. with light/medium pressure, you can feel if the socket is binding and coming over the point of the fastener by applying pressure and releasing pressure. if it sticks, you need to pay closer attention to what is happening. if it releases without sticking, you are getting a good grab at it. paying attention to that before you give it full torque trying to get something off can help from rounding in many cases in my experience. pretty basic though.
smothers33
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If your 6 pts have some version of flank drive then 6 pt is better due to it grabbing the muddle of the head. But if your sockets are not flank drive then your 6 point applies the pressure to exactly the same area as a 12 pt. 12 Pt is definitely more versitile so I would start with all 12 and then get a second set of 6 pt with flank drive. And snap on is not the only one with flank drive. My gearwrench set has it and I know many others do too. Im sure someone will list off some more names
TwoInch
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that first part isnt really true. an old "non flank drive" style 6pt grabs the actual corner of the fastener, where as modern 12pts do not. any modern decent 12pt socket grabs in on the flat also. if you look at the profile of the broaching, there is only a small section missing at the middle most part of the flat. the contact of a 12pt is actually on the points inside the socket, not on the fastener.
TwoInch
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some of you may have not read this thread yet, its hidden in the stickies. it compares many brands of 6pt and 12pt sockets contact points. you can make your own conclusions after seeing the MANY pictures.
socket contact points
http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73245
from what i gather from the thread, most sockets grab pretty much the same spot on fasteners in good condition, with very few grabbing a touch further in than the others.
socket contact points
http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73245
from what i gather from the thread, most sockets grab pretty much the same spot on fasteners in good condition, with very few grabbing a touch further in than the others.
smothers33
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flank drives grab the actual middle of the the fastener. The spot where the cutout of a 12 pt is. You are right that a quality 12 pt socket does grab towards the points though. But its not the actual middle. Its not a big difference but its enough to where a flank drive is less likely to round a fastener than a 12 pt. But a regular 6 point is no better than a 12 pt exact for the fact its a little stronger and less likely to crack/break
Old thread and we have changed since it started. If I was buying now.
Sockets get a 6 point set first. It will work better for the common hex bolt will not round them off. For large sizes 12 points work just as well but we are talking 1 1/2 inch plus.
I used to then had a set of 12 pts for the rare square nut or 12 pt nuts or bolts. We have switched where possible to universals vs 12 pts.
Wrenches get the 12 pt first. The limited swing of the 6 pt makes them the specialty wrench here.
Having two sets is not as bad as you may think in the old days you got a double box set and an open end set to make sure you had two of each size of wrench for the time you needed two wrenches. With the move to combination wrenches with the same size on both wrenches you need two sets just like the past to have the two wrenches of the same size you need. Usually one side will support using the 6 pt one.
Sockets get a 6 point set first. It will work better for the common hex bolt will not round them off. For large sizes 12 points work just as well but we are talking 1 1/2 inch plus.
I used to then had a set of 12 pts for the rare square nut or 12 pt nuts or bolts. We have switched where possible to universals vs 12 pts.
Wrenches get the 12 pt first. The limited swing of the 6 pt makes them the specialty wrench here.
Having two sets is not as bad as you may think in the old days you got a double box set and an open end set to make sure you had two of each size of wrench for the time you needed two wrenches. With the move to combination wrenches with the same size on both wrenches you need two sets just like the past to have the two wrenches of the same size you need. Usually one side will support using the 6 pt one.
I prefer 6pt when possible. Oddly Craftsman only makes 6pt 1/2 drive metrics up to 22mm. 23mm and above are only made in 12pt. So I do have the 12pt sockets 23mm up to 32mm. This seems really strange since on the SAE side I have Craftsman 6pts up to 1-1/4. For the past few years I have been putting together snap on sockets sets all 6pts in 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2. I have sizes up to 1-1/8 SAE and 24mm metric. Getting 25mm and up is going to be expensive!
Realistically the larger sockets in 12pt are probably fine. Large sizes are much much less to round off than the smaller sizes.
Realistically the larger sockets in 12pt are probably fine. Large sizes are much much less to round off than the smaller sizes.
buckwheat_la
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Wow what a good thread link. So impressed someone took the time to do the test
Autoguy
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I prefer to use 6 pt most of the time
outdoorspace
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I haven't been put into a situation where I needed a 12-point socket.
My chrome 3/4" drive sockets are 12-point but everything else is 6-point.
My chrome 3/4" drive sockets are 12-point but everything else is 6-point.
Years ago, a 12 point socket and 36 tooth ratchet were the norm, and the 12 points allowed you a lot of flexibility in tight places. Now most use a 6 point with ratchet that has 72 teeth or more. The extra teeth in the ratchet give you the flexibility lost by the socket. I use the 12 point sockets routinely and don't have a problem rounding corners unless the bolt head is rusty or already damaged.
doorfx
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I always use 6 point. I always felt that a 6 point socket was stronger.
wolf_from_wv
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I wonder what the geometry looks like for this...
outdoorspace
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Uh. it would be the exact same, the ratchet's position is relative to the square drive.
Slight tangent here... And I'm admitting I used to be a 12 point only guy but I am converting to (well, adding new) 6 points:
Assuming chrome sockets, are universals (the flex kind, not the spline kind) an exception to the six point is better opinion? The socket torque failure level is certainly lower with unis....
Assuming chrome sockets, are universals (the flex kind, not the spline kind) an exception to the six point is better opinion? The socket torque failure level is certainly lower with unis....
Ok So what is your view on this?
CHOSEN FOR ACCESS AND CONVENIENCE
12 point sockets were traditionally used to allow drive tools to be positioned more conveniently in days when ratchets were coarse toothed and so weak breakers were neccessities.
When a ratchet could not be used, it was faster to remove or install hardware with a 12 point since we could turn further before we needed to remove the breaker and reposition it.
Box wrenches have 12 point profiles for the same reason.
Typical mechanics' tool kits, just 20 years ago, had 6 and 12point sockets in every drive and depth.
ROUNDING BOLT HEADS
Snap On's Flank Drive socket geometry was designed for 12pt initially, not 6pt, to reduce the common occurrence of bolt head rounding caused by the plastic yielding of hex head fasteners' corners. Corrosion was also more common just 20 years ago, before Cad plating, zinc plating etc became so ubiquitous and contributed to the frequency with which we encountered the problem of rounded hardware.
Technically, flank drive 12 pts and 6 pt hit the bolt head in the exact same place and with the exact same sized contact patch, all other things being equal. Either a 12pt or a 6pt will do an equal job at removing hardware. The difference comes in when the head is damaged, or we damage it, or its corroded, in which case the contact patch on the socket moves closer to the corner such that a 12 pt can skip or slip and a 6 pt won't. For this reason, many mechanics prefer 6pts. But they aren't always helpful which is why some people don't encounter any problem using 12 pt sockets.
DO WE NEED 12PT SOCKETS?
With the advent of super strong, fine toothed ratchets, we no longer need breakers or the 12pt sockets we used with them for their original purpose.
For modern automotive work, almost regardless of vehicle origin, 12pt sockets are still needed for the 12pt fasteners found in engine bays, brakes, and suspensions. But I find I need them only in the larger metric size so my only metric 12pts (besides my wrenches) are 1/2" drive. You could treat these as specialty fasteners and buy individual sockets as you encounter need for them.
But I hasten to add the only disadvantage to using 12pts is removing compromised hardware. If you don't regularly encounter old, corroded, or stuck hardware, 12 pt sockets can be easier and quicker to install.
12 point sockets were traditionally used to allow drive tools to be positioned more conveniently in days when ratchets were coarse toothed and so weak breakers were neccessities.
When a ratchet could not be used, it was faster to remove or install hardware with a 12 point since we could turn further before we needed to remove the breaker and reposition it.
Box wrenches have 12 point profiles for the same reason.
Typical mechanics' tool kits, just 20 years ago, had 6 and 12point sockets in every drive and depth.
ROUNDING BOLT HEADS
Snap On's Flank Drive socket geometry was designed for 12pt initially, not 6pt, to reduce the common occurrence of bolt head rounding caused by the plastic yielding of hex head fasteners' corners. Corrosion was also more common just 20 years ago, before Cad plating, zinc plating etc became so ubiquitous and contributed to the frequency with which we encountered the problem of rounded hardware.
Technically, flank drive 12 pts and 6 pt hit the bolt head in the exact same place and with the exact same sized contact patch, all other things being equal. Either a 12pt or a 6pt will do an equal job at removing hardware. The difference comes in when the head is damaged, or we damage it, or its corroded, in which case the contact patch on the socket moves closer to the corner such that a 12 pt can skip or slip and a 6 pt won't. For this reason, many mechanics prefer 6pts. But they aren't always helpful which is why some people don't encounter any problem using 12 pt sockets.
DO WE NEED 12PT SOCKETS?
With the advent of super strong, fine toothed ratchets, we no longer need breakers or the 12pt sockets we used with them for their original purpose.
For modern automotive work, almost regardless of vehicle origin, 12pt sockets are still needed for the 12pt fasteners found in engine bays, brakes, and suspensions. But I find I need them only in the larger metric size so my only metric 12pts (besides my wrenches) are 1/2" drive. You could treat these as specialty fasteners and buy individual sockets as you encounter need for them.
But I hasten to add the only disadvantage to using 12pts is removing compromised hardware. If you don't regularly encounter old, corroded, or stuck hardware, 12 pt sockets can be easier and quicker to install.
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cbracer
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Would it also be safe to say that most 12 pt fasteners today don't require deep sockets, so really your selection of 12 pt should be limited to normal length metric?
WWheeler
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I believe I've read most if not all of the posts in this 10 yr old thread and it's amusing to see how there never will be a consensus on such a simple question.
One argument for 12 point I don't recall seeing made is that with 6 point sockets you will find that it happens a lot when working in tight spaces that you won't have enough range of travel to get the socket on the fastener without pulling the ratchet back out of the space you had it and giving the socket a small turn by hand. On some jobs quite a bit of time can be wasted that otherwise would not have been if using a 12 pt socket instead where you need half the range of travel with the ratchet to get the socket on the fastener.
It's mostly for that reason that unless it's a job where everything is rusted or I notice one or more of the fasteners look rather worn, perhaps from someone in the past not using a proper tool on it, I generally will go at the job with 12 pt sockets.
However, if most of the sizes I'll be dealing with are small enough it's something I'm probably going to attack with a 1/4" ratchet (generally ~1/2" / 12mm or less) then that's where I tend to go with a 6 pt as that size-range is the only time I've ever had a 12 pt round a fastener that wasn't crusty-rusty or in bad shape before I got to it. If I'm using an impact is the only other time I only use a 6 point.
Ever since i was a kid using my dad's and grandfather's tools and on to my own sets, much of which were handed down to me, I have always had access to full sets of both 6 and 12 pt sockets in 1/4" & 3/8" dr in standard, mid, and deep. My 1/2" (non-impact) & 3/4" dr to this day are still all 12 pt. I've always used whichever I felt & was taught was most appropriate for each job. I've never given much thought to which would be more important to someone just starting out. Seems a bit of a chicken or egg argument to me with no right or wrong answer.
One argument for 12 point I don't recall seeing made is that with 6 point sockets you will find that it happens a lot when working in tight spaces that you won't have enough range of travel to get the socket on the fastener without pulling the ratchet back out of the space you had it and giving the socket a small turn by hand. On some jobs quite a bit of time can be wasted that otherwise would not have been if using a 12 pt socket instead where you need half the range of travel with the ratchet to get the socket on the fastener.
It's mostly for that reason that unless it's a job where everything is rusted or I notice one or more of the fasteners look rather worn, perhaps from someone in the past not using a proper tool on it, I generally will go at the job with 12 pt sockets.
However, if most of the sizes I'll be dealing with are small enough it's something I'm probably going to attack with a 1/4" ratchet (generally ~1/2" / 12mm or less) then that's where I tend to go with a 6 pt as that size-range is the only time I've ever had a 12 pt round a fastener that wasn't crusty-rusty or in bad shape before I got to it. If I'm using an impact is the only other time I only use a 6 point.
Ever since i was a kid using my dad's and grandfather's tools and on to my own sets, much of which were handed down to me, I have always had access to full sets of both 6 and 12 pt sockets in 1/4" & 3/8" dr in standard, mid, and deep. My 1/2" (non-impact) & 3/4" dr to this day are still all 12 pt. I've always used whichever I felt & was taught was most appropriate for each job. I've never given much thought to which would be more important to someone just starting out. Seems a bit of a chicken or egg argument to me with no right or wrong answer.
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Thank you Adam C. You explained that far more clearly than I could. When I said flexibility, I meant how many degrees you could turn the ratchet handle or breaker bar before hitting an obstruction. Twelve points allowed you to position the socket and handle in the optimum position.
KMdef9
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Please prove/show this.
outdoorspace
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ssdave
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Adam C explained it best. I have 12 and 6 point, regular and deep, in all sizes. Predominately, in 3/8 and 1/2" drive, unless it's a special circumstance like a damaged fastener or a long extended bolt, I use shallow 12 points. I just prefer how they work and feel. In 1/4", I use 6 points, just because my favorite set is 6 point. Overall, I very rarely seen the need for a 6 point socket, unless the bolt is already damaged.
When I had cheap sockets, I always used the 6 point impact sockets. That's because they didn't stretch and round out the fastener like the 12 point and 6 point thin wall. When I bought better quality sockets, that problem and need for 6 point went away.
When I had cheap sockets, I always used the 6 point impact sockets. That's because they didn't stretch and round out the fastener like the 12 point and 6 point thin wall. When I bought better quality sockets, that problem and need for 6 point went away.
gdocktor3
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I have a mix of both, but to be honest, I've begun phasing out my 12 point stuff in exchange for 12 point spline. My Proto, Matco, Expert and SK ratchet wrenches all have 12 point spline and they work fantastically. You get the convenience of a 12 point box end, with the reliability of a 6 point. The fit and bite of the box end's are perfect. I also have shallow SK sockets and Kobalt pass thru sockets with 12 point spline. I use the spline sockets any time I think the fastener will give me trouble.
This has been my experience. i think the only reason I would need a deeper 12 pt is for ratchet/tool clearance. But that works both ways. For wheel hubs, a semi deep might be nice. For brake bolts, I'm usually out of room so I want the shortest socket I can get.
This is a little in the weeds, but I hope it is of interest:
When you take engineering in college, you take statics in your first year, possibly first semester. Statics is a concentrated physics class focusing on mechanics, balancing forces, resolving reactions etc. Statics simplifies the world by assuming everything is infinitely rigid.
So, in the case of using a socket wrench, in statics we would believe that the force we apply to a ratchet handle, times the distance to the axis of rotation of the bolt is the torque we are applying to the fastener. This is Newton's equal and opposite 3rd law.
One may graduate from engineering school believing this to be true. But it is not entirely true. In reality, we apply energy to a non rigid system that uses that energy to deform things in the system. We can analyze the system by computer modeling each element, inputting its true mechanical and elastic properties. This is generally called a Finite Element Analysis or FEA. We have all seen these. The output colors the parts to indicate internal stresses. Some call them "heat plots", because red is usually the highest stress and blue the least.
When you look at the contact patch of a socket, because the distance from the contact patch to the axis of rotation is so small, any tiny change in the contact patch's location can make a substantial difference to the amount of energy that is being used to squeeze the bolt head/deform the socket, instead of turning the fastener. If the contact patch is closer to the axis, a significant percent of your energy input will be used to squeeze socket. This results in the socket absorbing energy, the extension twisting more, the ratchet bending etc.
So when guys talk about Brand X sockets "just working better" this is how it is actually happening. The best sockets will contact the bolt head very near the edge in a straight very thin line. In use, such sockets will require less force to produce breakaway torque. Likewise, stiff extensions and drive tools also send more of your energy than they absorb. This is one of the reasons great sockets are great.
There have been a couple threads on GJ showing contact patches. Almost everyone looks like a Snap On infomercial to me. Regardless, they are well worth searching for.
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