6 pt or 12 pt - help educate me!

[Outlawmws]

Are you familiar with AS-954? I doubt it, because you'd understand that it requires 12-point to conform to the requirement of AS870, meaning that they shall transmit torque to the fastener without bearing on the outer 5% of the fastener's wrenching points. Now think about that for a moment. There would never be a conformance standard created unless there was an issue in the first place. And the issue is that 12-point tools do not put the same stress on the same surface area as a 6-point tool used on a 6-point fastener. Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.

Not sure why you keep quoting SAE AS-954, which is a spec for 12 pt sockets on 12 pt fasteners. The 5% requirement is also held for hex fastener and hex sockets in other Standards...

This discussion was about 12 pt on a 6 pt fastener. I think the picture of the 6 fasteners is telling, as there is virtually no difference between the 12 and 6 pt tool marks, and considering it was different makes of sockets, is even more telling.

The real issue with round off, is either soft fasteners, poorly fitting tools (typically open ends where not needed) or both.

(Any one had any experience rounding off a grade 8 bolt? grade 5? (Or their metric equivalents) More likely grade 3 or some soft material like brass...)

 

[Even Steven]

Not sure why you keep quoting SAE AS-954...

Because it illustrates the point that tools made to conform to that standard were designed to apply force against a fastener in a different area than similar tools that don't meet the standard. And it applies to both 12-point and 6-point fasteners.

 

[Outlawmws]

Because it illustrates the point that tools made to conform to that standard were designed to apply force against a fastener in a different area than similar tools that don't meet the standard. And it applies to both 12-point and 6-point fasteners.

So misinformation is better then none?

Can you quote to me out of that standard where it applies to 6 point?

 

[sk farmer]

all i hear in this thread is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. most gys along the line have used a crappy 12 pt. socket on a damaged fastener with poor results. for some reason nobody ever argues the disasterous results of using 12 pt wrenches.

everyone, go out to your tool chest. grab a 9/16 wrench and a 9/16 12 pt socket of a decent mfg and quality. i would guess that would be some sort of wrench and socket that uses a flank type drive. now look at them, lay the box end of the wrench over the broached end of the socket. guess what? it's the same damn pattern. do you hold the mating end of that fastener with a wrench? if you do, you cant very damn well tear down the use of a 12 pt socket while holding a 12 pt wrench. but then, some guys just argue just to argue.

 

[bcradio]

all i hear in this thread is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. most gys along the line have used a crappy 12 pt. socket on a damaged fastener with poor results. for some reason nobody ever argues the disasterous results of using 12 pt wrenches.

everyone, go out to your tool chest. grab a 9/16 wrench and a 9/16 12 pt socket of a decent mfg and quality. i would guess that would be some sort of wrench and socket that uses a flank type drive. now look at them, lay the box end of the wrench over the broached end of the socket. guess what? it's the same damn pattern. do you hold the mating end of that fastener with a wrench? if you do, you cant very damn well tear down the use of a 12 pt socket while holding a 12 pt wrench. but then, some guys just argue just to argue.

hahaha I love this... all those people out there arguing that the 6-point is the only way to go, but have 12-point wrenches with no complaints.

I bet they break the rusty fasteners loose by double wrenching then grab their 6-point socket to finish the job

 

[Outlawmws]

all i hear in this thread is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. most gys along the line have used a crappy 12 pt. socket on a damaged fastener with poor results. for some reason nobody ever argues the disasterous results of using 12 pt wrenches.

everyone, go out to your tool chest. grab a 9/16 wrench and a 9/16 12 pt socket of a decent mfg and quality. i would guess that would be some sort of wrench and socket that uses a flank type drive. now look at them, lay the box end of the wrench over the broached end of the socket. guess what? it's the same damn pattern. do you hold the mating end of that fastener with a wrench? if you do, you cant very damn well tear down the use of a 12 pt socket while holding a 12 pt wrench. but then, some guys just argue just to argue.

 

[sk farmer]

plenty of trolling in this thread. people who go around claiming they are absolutely, positively, 100% accurate and factual usually aren't. referring and or excusing people off to some government or engineered mandated standard is another tip off. compared to 12 pt i would guess something around 1 in 10 has a set of set of six point wrenches. or maybe 12 pt outnumbers them 10 to 1 but whatever. if 12 pt is junk you better throw all your 12 pt wrenches away or send them to me. the tecnology in a 12 pt socket and a socket is the same. a socket may even be argued as stronger because they have more material than the ring of a box end wrench. fact of the matter is use what you want. buy some of each and quit argueing just to argue.

i also call bs on the only reason 12 pt. sockets exist is for use on 12pt fasteners. i doubt that many 12pt fasteners existed when 12 point sockets were invented. i will go with the argument that 12 pt was designed for more points of engagement for when breakers, "ell"s". speeders and low tooth count ratchets were the norm to allow for their limited range of movement. but........ i am sure someone will argue that also and that is just fine.

 

[Gtamazing]

 

[Gtamazing]

 

[ajchien]

I'm gonna start a poll just because I'm curious ...

 

[Gtamazing]

Oh BTW, I am pro 12-point

 

[sk farmer]

thanks for the demotivational posters gt. cracks me up how guys just pull **** out of thin air to make a point. i would bet that every guy who ******* about those worthless crappy 12 pt sockets has a whole box full of 12 point wrenches they love. i know some do but most don't have any 6 point wrenches. i have yet to have anyone explain to me how 12 pt wrenches can be so good and the norm while 12 point sockets are bad and the sure sign of a hack.

 

[GirlnAgarage]

Aw come on guys, it was a good match. Besides it was Friday, let em go. Consider that spectators watch the same sports teams play each other year after year, including several times during the same season. The difference is the players on the team in the contest. Same here. So go get a bag of chips and cold beer and just watch. If you don't like the contest, flip the channel (go to another thread).


Sometimes readers learn new stuff even if its the same topic. I know I was.

 

[sk farmer]

Aw come on guys, it was a good match. Besides it was Friday, let em go. Consider that spectators watch the same sports teams play each other year after year, including several times during the same season. The difference is the players on the team in the contest. Same here. So go get a bag of chips and cold beer and just watch. If you don't like the contest, flip the channel (go to another thread).


Sometimes readers learn new stuff even if its the same topic. I know I was.

valid points, girl. i don't have any issues with opinions. i have a few of my own. i just like to remind people who get all up on the high horse with facts that don't add up that they may not have thought their line in the sand all the way through.

sometime people don't know or understand the differance between facts and opinions.

 

[gtlaw]

12 point, and 6 point both ****!!! I only use 48 point sockets, and wrenches when it rounds off the head of the fastener it feels smooth like a dual 80 ratchet

 

[Outlawmws]

12 point, and 6 point both ****!!! I only use 48 point sockets, and wrenches when it rounds off the head of the fastener it feels smooth like a dual 80 ratchet

You need to switch to 4 point...

 

[ajchien]

You need to switch to 4 point...

I've found a way to round a 4 pt before. If there's a way, I'll find it. Usually followed by a lot of cursing ...

 

[trboxman]

I've found a way to round a 4 pt before. If there's a way, I'll find it. Usually followed by a lot of cursing ...

Crescent wrenches excel at rounding 4 pt fasteners.

 

[ajchien]

Crescent wrenches excel at rounding 4 pt fasteners.

It was an internal (female) 3/8" 4 point bolt.

I put a breaker bar half way in and got distracted by I can't remember. Must have been a girl with a skirt that walked by. When i went back, I didn't remember that my bar wasn't fully seated. I pulled, things went flying. Cursing occurred.

Although i am in the 6 point camp, Paying attention to what you're doing is certainly much more important.

Darn miniskirts.

 

[Outlawmws]

Crescent wrenches excel at rounding 4 pt fasteners.

Crescent wrenches excel at rounding everything

 

[Outlawmws]

It was an internal (female) 3/8" 4 point bolt.

I put a breaker bar half way in and got distracted by I can't remember. Must have been a girl with a skirt that walked by. When i went back, I didn't remember that my bar wasn't fully seated. I pulled, things went flying. Cursing occurred.

Although i am in the 6 point camp, Paying attention to what you're doing is certainly much more important.

Damn!... miniskirts.

Fixed!

 

[mofo62]

6 pt
PROS
Much higher torque capacity
Works on slightly rounded fasteners
Cheaper

Cons
Less versatile (in RARE applications when using a breaker bar in a confined area, or a low tooth count ratchet)

12pt
Pros
More uses in tight areas (rarely...)
Can be used on 12pt fasteners (ARP engine bolts, head bolts, etc)

Cons
MUCH more likely to round the hex, especially on smaller fasteners (very commonly seen on 13mm drain plugs)

If you're buying your first few sets of sockets, go for the 6 point. You'll avoid rounding bolts, and are more likely able to remove bolts that someone else rounded! (doh!)

 

[EW57]

....... some guys just argue just to argue.

we do not!

 

[expfcwintergreen]

i know some do but most don't have any 6 point wrenches. i have yet to have anyone explain to me how 12 pt wrenches can be so good and the norm while 12 point sockets are bad and the sure sign of a hack.

=======
Wouldn't 12 point wrenches be more common because a wrench has to be taken off the fastener and put back on each time you turn it and a socket doesn't?

That said, I have 6 and 12 point wrenches and prefer 6 point when the fastener is easy to get to. I don't have any empirical evidence but it seems logical to use 6 point wrenches on 6 point fasteners.

 

[Even Steven]

So misinformation is better then none?

Can you quote to me out of that standard where it applies to 6 point?

Can you use a 12-point tool on a 6-point fastener?

 

[Even Steven]

Worked on Toyota brakes last weekend. Had to remove a bracket that's bolted to the control arm. The bracket holds the brake line and is secured with a 10 mm hex bolt. Unfortunately, the bolt was rusted the only thing I had with me that would fit this bolt was a 12-point wrench. After soaking the bolt with PB Blaster, it still wouldn't budge. The 12-point wrench was doing nothing but rounding the head of the bolt. So I had to stop what I was doing and go home to get a 6-point wrench. Of course it removed the bolt with no problem. Like I said: 6-point tools for 6-point fasteners.

 

[CaseyJoes.]

12pt wrenches for accesss first. Later if you want you can buy 6pt wrenches. I have some 6pts that covers the range of common standard sizes, and I have needed them before.

For sockets, buy 6pt first. Not sure if anybody else has mentioned this, but 6pt sockets will last longer than 12pts before they wear enough that they have to be replaced (Along with their other advantages mentioned). If later on you find yourself in need of 12pts, go ahead and buy them. Its unlikely you will ever need them though unless you start running across alot of 12pt fasteners for some reason.

 

[Outlawmws]

Can you use a 12-point tool on a 6-point fastener?

That's not what the standard is about...

 

[Gtamazing]

Worked on Toyota brakes last weekend. Had to remove a bracket that's bolted to the control arm. The bracket holds the brake line and is secured with a 10 mm hex bolt. Unfortunately, the bolt was rusted the only thing I had with me that would fit this bolt was a 12-point wrench. After soaking the bolt with PB Blaster, it still wouldn't budge. The 12-point wrench was doing nothing but rounding the head of the bolt. So I had to stop what I was doing and go home to get a 6-point wrench. Of course it removed the bolt with no problem. Like I said: 6-point tools for 6-point fasteners.

Aren't you awesome

 

[Even Steven]

Aren't you awesome

If you think I'm awesome, then that's terrific.

Just stating the facts, ma'am.

 

[GirlnAgarage]

Gtamazing is a ma'am?

And why isn't there a 'dude sitting on the couch eating popcorn' emoticon?

 

[Outlawmws]

Not that much of interest to watch Girl, just the usual lame troll defense of taking an insult as a compliment.

 

[djkeev]

So, after all of this brilliant discussion, name calling and argument over what is best..... A quick question for Chaser, the OP.

What are you going to purchase? 6 point or 12 point?


For the record, I prefer 6 point based upon decades of mechanical experience. It's what is right for me. I started out with all 12 points a long, long, LONG, time ago, since then I've gathered 6 points and have relegated my 12 points to the infrequently used section of my tool box. I have them when needed but honestly, they are very infrequently used.

Dave

 

[chaser]

Yes this has been a very informative discussion - I had no idea I was opening a can of worms. Sorry about that!

I think I'll go 6 point on sockets and 12 points on wrenches. When using wrenches in tight spaces - 12 points mean you can get it on the nut in 30 degree increments, even more if you turn the wrench over. With 6 points it's every 60 degrees. Best of both worlds I guess, until I can afford it all.

 

[oldtools]

With everything being equal, 6pt socket/wrench is less likely to round off a bolt (hex head) than a 12pt socket/wrench. With 6pt, the hex bolt can handle about 60% more torque before being rounded off. For example, the hex bolt will rounded off at 160 ft-lbf with 6pt instead of 100 ft-lbf with 12pt.

 

[oldtools]

Re-attach better image quality

 

[moronmountain]

I personally like 6 point sockets and 12 point wrenches like most do. I don't really have trouble with the 12 point wrenches rounding bolts off if it's a quality wrench. I guess I like 6 point sockets because they have thicker walls for the most part, and potentially have a better chance of not rounding off a SOFT bolt/nut. Having said that, I've sheared off bolts using both, and rounded off fasteners using both. (I normally only round something off if I have to use a bad angle to get at it, otherwise it comes off or shears off.) I use what I use, and that's it, and it's worked well for me. I think you'll do well either way, but for wrenches you should prolly go 12 point just because it offers you more positions to get at a fastener in tight spots.

 

[el tanque prohibido]

Re-attach better image quality

You won't find sockets like that anymore except for real old sockets. Modern sockets have off-corner engagement (Flank Drive). So the old 6-point verses 12-point argument is mute.

 

[trboxman]

You won't find sockets like that anymore except for real old sockets. Modern sockets have off-corner engagement (Flank Drive). So the old 6-point verses 12-point argument is mute.

The word is "moot"...and how does flank drive and it's derivatives render the argument moot?

 

[el tanque prohibido]

The word is "moot"...and how does flank drive and it's derivatives render the argument moot?

Modern sockets and their derivatives make contact with the shoulder of the socket that's on the flank of the corner instead of directly on the corner itself like older sockets did. Older 12-point sockets that were sloppy stood a good chance of rounding off the corners. Not a problem anymore with modern sockets. Thanks for the grammatical correction, I appreciate it.