6 vs 12 point sockets

[jgromada]

I can't even remember the last time I was FORCED to use a 12 pt socket.

Strike that about 5 years ago I needed a 32mm 12 pt socket to remove a hub from a Jetta. But i had to buy that socket special anyway.

 

[driz]

Let us not forget the other elephant in the room : FASTENER QUALITY!! Those of us with some age on us have noticed how poor most fasteners have become. In the auto industry it’s been that way a very long time. I’ve seen some so bad that the heads smear over like they were aluminum.


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[FSUwelder1212]

Question for you guys, do 12 pt deep sockets make sense? Other than some aftermarket stuff (ARP head and main studs) I don’t recall ever seeing a 12 pt nut, it is always 12 pt bolt heads on oem stuff that I’ve seen. My deeps are all 6 pt but I’ve been wondering if buying 12 pt deeps to accompany my 6 pts makes sense.

 

[pbon]

One of my BMWs has 12 point nuts on its aftermarket head studs, and some normal depth sockets are shallow enough to not fully seat. Some do seat, and a mid depth would certainly be enough. I can’t think of any 12 point nuts that I have encountered that required a deep socket.

 

[Mgdoug3]

I have a set of 12 point impact sockets I bought for front wheel bearings. I've used the other sizes on a 1400 ft lb Milwaukee and have yet to round off a bolt. If the bolt is worn or rusted then I'll break out the 6 point sockets first. The way some people talk on here you would think just placing a 12 point socket on a bolt will round it off.

 

[zendriver]

I have a set of 12 point impact sockets I bought for front wheel bearings. I've used the other sizes on a 1400 ft lb Milwaukee and have yet to round off a bolt. If the bolt is worn or rusted then I'll break out the 6 point sockets first. The way some people talk on here you would think just placing a 12 point socket on a bolt will round it off.

So, why not just use a 6 point and be done with it?

 

[voidptr]

Use a 6 point on a 6 point hex...use 12 point on a 12 point hex. I mean, if you don't subscribe to this, you might as well just use an adjustable wrench or gator socket right?

I agree .. von the other side I own also a gator socket and .... but never used it on a gator !

 

[Mgdoug3]

So, why not just use a 6 point and be done with it?

Because I can get a socket on a bolt quicker. Because it comes in a plastic tray that's handier and easier to grab if I'm away from the shop. Because I have the gift of eyesight I can see if I can get away using a 12 point. Because I occasionally come across 12 point bolts and easier to carry half the sockets. Is that enough reasons?

 

[_brian_]

This is basically prompted my query. I have a set of 12 point impact wheel nut sockets that I use on both 6 and 12 point. I have no problems at all, and I am to understand that is due to the large fastener size making the 12 point no better or worse than the 6 point.

If you want to find the difference, try using a 12 point with an impact. Suddenly you will find yourself rounding all kinds of fasteners. There really is no reason to use a 12 point socket on a six point head.

 

[_brian_]

The reason I have is that I only want to buy one set of wheel nut impact sockets. So getting the 12 point allows me to use them on both 6 and 12 point wheel nuts, making it where I only need to buy one set vs 2.

So, why not just use a 6 point and be done with it?

 

[jay70]

Depends what you are working on, my most used sizes are 36, 46 and 55mm and with the speed we are trying to get the job done and the access constraints a 6 point socket would only be a hindrance

 

[Flyordie]

My 1/4 and 3/8 drives are all 6pts with the exception of a few extra sockets I bought to add to the base kit. 1/2 drive is 12pt. Haven't ever really rounded off a fastener with 12pt so no comment there.

 

[Wrench97]

The reason I have is that I only want to buy one set of wheel nut impact sockets. So getting the 12 point allows me to use them on both 6 and 12 point wheel nuts, making it where I only need to buy one set vs 2.

Out of curiosity what has 12 point wheel nuts?

 

[Wrench97]

Depends what you are working on, my most used sizes are 36, 46 and 55mm and with the speed we are trying to get the job done and the access constraints a 6 point socket would only be a hindrance

My 3/4 & 1" impacts spin both 6 & 12 point sockets equal speeds

 

[bob15]

Out of curiosity what has 12 point wheel nuts?

Try googling "12 point lug nuts" and you will see the aftermarket has plenty of styles.

 

[Wrench97]

So nothing OEM?

 

[jimmyin3D]

So nothing OEM?

Toyota/Lexus and a couple US automakers have 30mm 12pt axle nuts
VW/Audi have a 32mm 12pt axle nut if I remember correctly

They are OEM

 

[bob15]

So nothing OEM?

Don't know and does it really matter? A 12 pt lug nut is a 12 pt lug nut.

 

[Mgdoug3]

I'm glad I had my 12 point impact sockets for removing a starter off a 12.7 Detroit that had 12 pt bolts. It would have been nice if I could have gotten more than one bolt out with my impact though.

 

[joel63]

Toyota/Lexus and a couple US automakers have 30mm 12pt axle nuts
VW/Audi have a 32mm 12pt axle nut if I remember correctly

They are OEM

For one example, 2010 Toyota Yaris. 30mm 12 point.

 

[Downwindtracker 2]

30mm is the nut size for 20mm, a rather standard size for machinery.

 

[CR888]

I don't have 12pt's just for 12pt fasteners, the modern 12pt socket/wrench excels on both 6 & 12pt sockets. The evidence & fastener science of modern 12pt designs simply doesn't back up the old wives tale myths that once had some truth to them many years ago.

 

[mr.lemons]

I made very short vid showing the difference between 12 point and 6 point on a worn fastener. I used a traditional flat sided 6 point and more modern 12 point.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Y4yy5YKxlv8" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[jay70]

My 3/4 & 1" impacts spin both 6 & 12 point sockets equal speeds

True but in my application there isn't room to use an impact, most of the time barely enough for a socket and 3/4 ratchet. After that the crows feet come out, let me tell you 1033nm on a crow foot with a hand torque wrench is interesting haha

 

[Aqua-Andy]

I made very short vid showing the difference between 12 point and 6 point on a worn fastener. I used a traditional flat sided 6 point and more modern 12 point.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Y4yy5YKxlv8" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Pretty hard to argue against this video. I have came across this scenario many times.

 

[noid]

I made very short vid showing the difference between 12 point and 6 point on a worn fastener. I used a traditional flat sided 6 point and more modern 12 point.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Y4yy5YKxlv8" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

+1 and I shall add this:

 

[Bighead38]

I made very short vid showing the difference between 12 point and 6 point on a worn fastener. I used a traditional flat sided 6 point and more modern 12 point.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Y4yy5YKxlv8" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

But these NASCAR pit crew garage journal members say a 6 point is too slow because they might have to move the wrench a 1/8” to get it on or god forbid flip the wrench over.

 

[californiaHank]

+1 and I shall add this:

I don't think your video is showing what you think it it showing.
Even my 6 point wrenches are off-corner engagement ("Flank Drive".)
Your Japanese wrench appears to be a very old (or very inexpensive) straight sided one.

The Toptul 12 point looks like a decent wrench, engaging the fastener away from the corners. Flank drive wrenches fit differently than old school wrenches for good reason, and are less likely to round a bolt head. IMHO, your 12 point would be a better choice for a bolt with rounded corners - 12 potential gripping points away from the corners.

 

[noid]

I don't think your video is showing what you think it it showing.
Even my 6 point wrenches are off-corner engagement ("Flank Drive".)
Your Japanese wrench appears to be a very old (or very inexpensive) straight sided one.

The Toptul 12 point looks like a decent wrench, engaging the fastener away from the corners. Flank drive wrenches fit differently than old school wrenches for good reason, and are less likely to round a bolt head. IMHO, your 12 point would be a better choice for a bolt with rounded corners - 12 potential gripping points away from the corners.

The bolt is always softer than the wrench, when it mushes, you dont want voids for it to flow into.

Its a matter of material displacement, not contact points.

6 point > 12 point on 6 point nuts and bolts.

 

[kythri]

The Toptul 12 point looks like a decent wrench, engaging the fastener away from the corners.

Did we watch the same video? Because the Toptul 12 point didn't engage the fastener in the video I watched.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Did we watch the same video? Because the Toptul 12 point didn't engage the fastener in the video I watched.

Guy has "california" is his user name. His opinion on rust is irrelevant.

The bolt is always softer than the wrench, when it mushes, you dont want voids for it to flow into.

Its a matter of material displacement, not contact points.

6 point > 12 point on 6 point nuts and bolts.

This right here. Rust/damaged fasteners mean 12 point flat out doesn't work in some situations, sockets or wrenches. It's like the guys who say using a torch makes you a hack. Come to PA and turn that 13mm inner tie-rod - Any tool you like, and I'll pay you $1000.





6 for 6, 12 for 12. Even 12 point spline can't touch 6 point, despite what any displays or ads may say. Matco 6-point spline are the best I've found, and it still rounds stuff off. Look at the image below, if those splines gripping in the dead center of a rotted and frozen fastener STILL round it off, how well would 12 point have done?

 

[californiaHank]

Guy has "california" is his user name. His opinion on rust is irrelevant.

You might have a point. I grew up in the rust belt, but haven't used a torch on a rusty bolt since I moved to California, a long time ago.

 

[mr.lemons]

I don't think your video is showing what you think it it showing.
Even my 6 point wrenches are off-corner engagement ("Flank Drive".)
Your Japanese wrench appears to be a very old (or very inexpensive) straight sided one.

The Toptul 12 point looks like a decent wrench, engaging the fastener away from the corners. Flank drive wrenches fit differently than old school wrenches for good reason, and are less likely to round a bolt head. IMHO, your 12 point would be a better choice for a bolt with rounded corners - 12 potential gripping points away from the corners.

Point of the vid was to show that 12 point is a significant compromise compared to 6 point on worn/soft/rusted fasteners. Wrench choice was intentional to show that 'off corner engagement' does not make a significant enough difference to negate this compromise.

The Japan KTC wrenches get my

 

[ajchien]

I think one contributing factor is the hardness of the fastener. There are some bolts that are just softer than others, and will round off with less force.

 

[_brian_]

The bolt is always softer than the wrench, when it mushes, you dont want voids for it to flow into.

Its a matter of material displacement, not contact points.

6 point > 12 point on 6 point nuts and bolts.

I did not think of it this way before, but it makes sense. I would be interested in seeing a demonstration of a 6 and 12 point wrench or socket completely mushing the nut or bolt head. I think that seeing the results on the hardware would be most interesting.

 

[Downwindtracker 2]

After all this rusty bolt talk, I used this as an excuse to finish out my 1/2" and 3/8" pt, deep and standard. Thanks guys

 

[CGarage]

I had always been spooked out about rounding fasteners with 12 point sockets. I typically bought only 6 point until about 10 years ago when I bought a 1/4” Drive 12 point Facom socket set. I have never had an issue and I think socket design and geometry plays a large role with regard to risk of rounding the corners on the fasteners.

 

[CGarage]

Well stated post above. I agree with you 100 percent.

 

[cherrybomb]

I've said this a lot of times before. The problem with these arguments is that what each person brings forward is from their personal experience and observations, (plus what they read on the internet). The guy with 40 year old CM technology or new Chinese Craftsman technology is going to have different set of expriences from the guy that has high quality, leading edge designed off the corner engagement technology. For that guy, his observation that a 6 point is necessary is valid. For you, it may not be.

I've had my own anecdotal evidence of this. When I went from Craftsman sockets to modern Proto and Snap-on, my stripping and rounding of bolts problems mostly disappeared. And, I use mostly 12 point except in 1/4" drive.

The rounding of bolt phenomenom in my case was much more related to brand and quality of socket used than to 6 point versus 12 point.

Thats ,pretty much how I see it also.Well written.

 

[mr.lemons]

'leading edge designed off the corner engagement technology.'