#8 Black Neutral

[mobiledynamics]

Helping my bro-in-law with a slightly longer run for his gen setup.
Plan to use #8 instead if 10. Have plenty of black and red on hand. No white.

Dare I use a black or if you opened this up, you would say, ~What the NEC~

 

[pattenp]

Need to use white to be NEC compliant.

 

[Daveco]

I may be wrong, but I think wrapping the ends with white electrical tape is acceptable to identify the neutral.

 

[UpNorther]

Just wrap the ends in white tape.

 

[mobiledynamics]

technically, by NEC, anything larger than #6 you can tape.
Everything else, white or grey.

 

[Norcal]

I may be wrong, but I think wrapping the ends with white electrical tape is acceptable to identify the neutral.

Your wrong. It needs to be 4AWG or larger to be acceptable.

 

[Daveco]

Actually good to know.

...but I think I'd still just use the tape

 

[G_P]

Actually good to know.

...but I think I'd still just use the tape

Same here. Or white heat shrink tubing. Done properly that would make it pretty hard to tell that its not white wire.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

Same here. Or white heat shrink tubing. Done properly that would make it pretty hard to tell that its not white wire.

What if someone down the road does something in the middle?

Why not buy the right, write wire and use the black down the road for another project?

 

[G_P]

What if someone down the road does something in the middle?

Why not buy the right, write wire and use the black down the road for another project?

I get what you're saying, but anyone who just taps into random wires without first verifying what they are shouldn't be doing electrical work.
If it was a 4ga wire it could be taped on the ends and the same could happen and that's code compliant.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

 

[Daveco]

What if someone down the road does something in the middle?

Why not buy the right, write wire and use the black down the road for another project?[/QUOTE

Personally, if I were cutting into the middle of a run, I'd have already identified the existing terminations and be aware of the situation.

 

[Lassen Forge]

NO BLACK!!! Black = Hot, you put that on a neutral, if something goes horribly wrong and you need an insurance payout, and an adjuster sees that (meaning the wiring is not to code)...

Oh well.

Let me ask this, for chits and giggles - How much would a run of wire cost?

 

[simpler=better]

NO BLACK!!! Black = Hot, you put that on a neutral, if something goes horribly wrong and you need an insurance payout, and an adjuster sees that (meaning the wiring is not to code)...

Oh well.

Let me ask this, for chits and giggles - How much would a run of wire cost?

$0.18/ft for #8 copper THWN down here

$0.23/ft for white heat shrink
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0099HBDXI/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[manwithtools]

Your wrong. It needs to be 4AWG or larger to be acceptable.

Norcal is right. However, I'd like to know why the cut off is at 4AWG? I think it is because no manufacturer typically makes a white or gray conductor on anything larger than 4awg in North America.

Everyone knows that code is supported by the manufacturers as well as the engineers and electricians don't you? It's decision by committee to the nth degree. If the the manufacturers did not make anything larger than 8awg in white, then that would be the cutoff, don't you know?

So if it's available, you must buy it and use it to be code compliant instead of just marking it as a grounded conductor as you can in larger gauges. SMH...

It's like everything else - follow the money.

 

[acmikee]

phase tape the ends and your good....

 

[Cmreschke]

They Make White IN Larger CONDUCTORS As well. Pretty common and easy to get. I've seen 500s in white, red blue brown orange, yellow, and grey. Any color you want. It's not really even special order, and it costs the same as black.

 

[teamextreme]

It used to be perfectly legal to phase tape the neutral on any size wire, this is a fairly recent code change, just saying...

 

[Norcal]

It is just the way it is, grounded and grounding conductors 6 AWG and smaller cannot be identified with tape & be code compliant. It is not a recent change either.

 

[manwithtools]

They Make White IN Larger CONDUCTORS As well. Pretty common and easy to get. I've seen 500s in white, red blue brown orange, yellow, and grey. Any color you want. It's not really even special order, and it costs the same as black.

Did you see the part that said "no manufacturer typically" I've seen other sizes too. Show me where you can buy the larger sizes in anything other than black without ordering a very large quantity or paying more for it.

I buy close to a million feet a year of different sizes. I assure you that there is an up-charge and a delivery impact to get something other than black in larger gauges.

Let''s see your invoices. In the meantime I'll get some quotes. What gauge would you like to see? 500MCM sounds like good place to start based on your response.

 

[manwithtools]

It is just the way it is, grounded and grounding conductors 6 AWG and smaller cannot be identified with tape & be code compliant. It is not a recent change either.

I think they can if part of a cable assembly, or maybe it's okay to use the white conductor as a current carrying conductor if it's less than 6 awg if it's part of a cable assembly.

Norcal, can you refresh my memory?

 

[Cmreschke]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...ghlMA0&usg=AFQjCNHKtCyHCG37yx4V-RzBXhUW69Y-6Q
Hope that wirked. That's 500s white by the foot for 6 and change per foot. Google search.
I don't personally do the ordering I just install. I've seen it so much in all sizes that it's really not even a thought to order it that way. I don't believe it's special order and requires an extra charge but hey I could be mistaken.
To the op, if it were me I would just tape it to identify it (in my own home or shop) if I'm installing for a customer it's gonna be white.

 

[Norcal]

200.6 goes back to at least the 1971 NEC.

 

[nadogail]

Well it is not right, that is well established, but yes it will work. I suggest that in every box the neutral be identified with white paint, tape, Shrink tubing or as I did once White Out.

A wire that is painted white, is white.

Sometimes, as much as we would like to, for whatever reason we mean well but we just don't quite get things done 100%.

 

[600SL]

technically, by NEC, anything larger than #6 you can tape.
Everything else, white or grey.

They did not let me use grey here in NC. They made me re-run it with two whites in one conduit. Its a good thing I had the lift wiring inspected before I did the rest of the wiring. He told me I could only use grey if I was mixing voltages and 240/120 were not considered mixed voltages. 208/240 were considered mixed voltages. Therefore white for all neutrals and each run tied together with color coded tie wrap.

Its possible My inspector was incorrect as I did catch him out on my welding circuit with a 100 amp breaker on a #6 wire. I had to show him NEC 630 on that one. But I could not find anything specifically allowing grey as a neutral.

 

[600SL]

Norcal is right. However, I'd like to know why the cut off is at 4AWG? I think it is because no manufacturer typically makes a white or gray conductor on anything larger than 4awg in North America.

Everyone knows that code is supported by the manufacturers as well as the engineers and electricians don't you? It's decision by committee to the nth degree. If the the manufacturers did not make anything larger than 8awg in white, then that would be the cutoff, don't you know?

So if it's available, you must buy it and use it to be code compliant instead of just marking it as a grounded conductor as you can in larger gauges. SMH...

It's like everything else - follow the money.

Years ago that might be true but I just bought #1 in red and black and #2 in white. I remember 25 years ago running #2 and had to use three blacks with taped ends.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

They did not let me use grey here in NC. They made me re-run it with two whites in one conduit. Its a good thing I had the lift wiring inspected before I did the rest of the wiring. He told me I could only use grey if I was mixing voltages and 240/120 were not considered mixed voltages. 208/240 were considered mixed voltages. Therefore white for all neutrals and each run tied together with color coded tie wrap.

Its possible My inspector was incorrect as I did catch him out on my welding circuit with a 100 amp breaker on a #6 wire. I had to show him NEC 630 on that one. But I could not find anything specifically allowing grey as a neutral.

i guess u missed Norcals comment above.

Look at 200.6(a) and (b)...

Or:

http://m.ecmweb.com/qampa/code-qa-identification-circuit-conductors

 

[manwithtools]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...ghlMA0&usg=AFQjCNHKtCyHCG37yx4V-RzBXhUW69Y-6Q
Hope that wirked. That's 500s white by the foot for 6 and change per foot. Google search.
I don't personally do the ordering I just install. I've seen it so much in all sizes that it's really not even a thought to order it that way. I don't believe it's special order and requires an extra charge but hey I could be mistaken.
To the op, if it were me I would just tape it to identify it (in my own home or shop) if I'm installing for a customer it's gonna be white.

Well, I have to eat my hat on this one . I just checked with our supplier and 100 feet of 500MCM in black, white, red or green is all the same price - right now it's $6.00/foot. Delivery is a little longer on the red.

I apologize for shooting my mouth off before checking the facts. In the past it was always difficult to get the larger gauges in any color other than black, now I'm confused why code differentiates on the allowed marking of grounded conductors below a particular size of wire.

 

[Norcal]

It's been that way for grounded conductors since at least 1971, don't have a 1968 NEC & did not check my 1965 copy, also did not check on grounding conductors may have to do that tonight.

 

[mobiledynamics]

now I'm confused why code differentiates on the allowed marking of grounded conductors below a particular size of wire.

This was my OP. I can see how running the whole place with 12/14 with black labeled neutrals may be a bit taboo ;-)

But this is a isolated run. Not even used in service unless maybe--and that is a big maybe, once a year...

 

[Cmreschke]

Well, I have to eat my hat on this one . I just checked with our supplier and 100 feet of 500MCM in black, white, red or green is all the same price - right now it's $6.00/foot. Delivery is a little longer on the red.

I apologize for shooting my mouth off before checking the facts. In the past it was always difficult to get the larger gauges in any color other than black, now I'm confused why code differentiates on the allowed marking of grounded conductors below a particular size of wire.

No big deal brother! In the past it was difficult to get because it just wasn't enforced. I remember starting in the 90s in the trade and we were marking all sizes with tape and pulling. If we didn't have white or green in 12 awg just use black and phase tape it.
I've seen the enforcement of it really since about 2007 ish.

 

[Cmreschke]

This was my OP. I can see how running the whole place with 12/14 with black labeled neutrals may be a bit taboo ;-)

But this is a isolated run. Not even used in service unless maybe--and that is a big maybe, once a year...

Its really about the dumbing down of the skilled trades. The enforcement end of it was to make it easy for the brain dead. Imo. It's about making it less of a skilled trade in order to lower wages. It's a race to the bottom I feel anyways.

 

[teamextreme]

It's been that way for grounded conductors since at least 1971, don't have a 1968 NEC & did not check my 1965 copy, also did not check on grounding conductors may have to do that tonight.

I did all kinds of googling trying to find when it changed but couldn't find any reference. I swore it was allowed all through the 80's when I was working in the field and changed sometime in the 00's. I guess I was wrong on that and was just taught incorrectly all those years and as mentioned above it was just never enforced.

 

[mobiledynamics]

While on topic or not, any limits on blue wire. Let's say I ran out of red....and ran black/blue for the 2 hots ? Just kurious for the discussion sake

 

[Speedy Petey]

It used to be perfectly legal to phase tape the neutral on any size wire, this is a fairly recent code change, just saying...

When was this? I'd like to know where you got this info.

 

[Speedy Petey]

phase tape the ends and your good....

Even though all the pros here are (correctly) saying it's a violation?

It's easy to throw around incorrect advice when you are a lay person, huh?

 

[Speedy Petey]

I think they can if part of a cable assembly, or maybe it's okay to use the white conductor as a current carrying conductor if it's less than 6 awg if it's part of a cable assembly.

Norcal, can you refresh my memory?

If it is part of a cable assembly you can re-mark a white to a hot. Regardless of this, a neutral is always a current carrying conductor.

 

[Norcal]

Quote:
Originally Posted by manwithtools
I think they can if part of a cable assembly, or maybe it's okay to use the white conductor as a current carrying conductor if it's less than 6 awg if it's part of a cable assembly.

Norcal, can you refresh my memory?

If it is part of a cable assembly you can re-mark a white to a hot. Regardless of this, a neutral is always a current carrying conductor.

I agree w/ Speedy's post.

 

[manwithtools]

If it is part of a cable assembly you can re-mark a white to a hot. Regardless of this, a neutral is always a current carrying conductor.

Ah, tricky guy huh? You are right, it's still a current carrying conductor even though it's a grounded conductor. Thanks for your input on this, I could not remember and was just to lazy to look it up.

 

[Cmreschke]

While on topic or not, any limits on blue wire. Let's say I ran out of red....and ran black/blue for the 2 hots ? Just kurious for the discussion sake

You can remark any blue to black or red and so on on phase conductors. You cannot however I believe just mid run change the color from red to blue.

 

[sberry]

I bet there is a good reason for this rule and the size requirements. Most of these fundamentals have been around a long time.
4 and larger are generally feeders vs branches and less subject to modifications too.