Above 1200 Sq/FT 86's 20HP shop

[86turbodsl]

Sweet. Found/discovered another failure mode. Crusties and/or ash had built up in the drain tube back to the preheat tank and that caused a mild overflow. The burner looked a little bright and was up to temp, so i shut it off, then found it still running after a few minutes. I checked why and found oil pooled on top of the preheat tank, and running into the boiler because it's sloped down into it rather than back into the burner body. Just another thing to address. I might make up a secondary drain/shield to go under the drain points so that doesn't happen even if it plugs. I think a 2nd drain elevated off the floor of the burner would do it. No crusties could hit that one.

 

[86turbodsl]

Positively painful to do an oil change and tire swap in the house garage while there's a lift in the shop and it's 10F in the house garage. I really need that Namco moving... sigh.

 

[Strouty]

Been there, done that, probably will have to do it again........

 

[86turbodsl]

Looks like it goes on the lift anyway. I got in the car this morning and had a wheel speed related clunk. Going to try one more thing before it goes on the lift.

 

[86turbodsl]

Fixed it and went to work. I swapped to snow tires last night. The wheel bolts must stick out fractionally more on these wheels so one stud was just kissing the knuckle as installed. Ill machine em down a hair and put em back. In the meantime the shorty bolts are in.

 

[86turbodsl]

and the burner is down again... i think the oil pump inlet screen again. Almost no oil flow. I need to work not clean that thing... ugh.

 

[86turbodsl]

After i cleaned the oil pump inlet, i got it running for the rest of the evening, and then this morning i turned it on again and it ran for maybe a 1/2 hour and lost all oil flow. I blew out the lines, and nothing. Even removed the outlet valve and stuck a straw in, and nothing really comes out. Not sure whats happening there, so the lid is coming off the tank at lunch time. Supposed to get cold tonight. Need that thing running. The result of all this is the tank might need a redesign. We'll know more after i take the tank top off.

 

[Strouty]

Waste oil is always tough to deal with, good luck we are going to get that same cold on Tuesday and Wednesday, negative temps with highs in the single digits.

 

[86turbodsl]

Thanks. I'll post more once i know what's going on.

 

[86turbodsl]

I took the whole preheat tank apart, and looking into the tank, first thing i saw was the level was down at the inlet to the pump. I tested the switches, all worked, tested the wiring, all worked and it filled up using the normal fill valve to the top and i turned the heater back on. Got up to temp and turned on the pump. It's pumping as normal now, i'm going to let it go for an hour at double volume and if it's still the same on the backend, i will reassemble and call it a fluke.

Only thing i can think of is the switch for lower level somehow didn't trigger, allowing it to run down to the bottom of the port and stop the burner for lack of oil. I can see a couple of improvements i could make to the preheat tank, so maybe i'll implement that sometime after / during boiler 2.0 install.

Other than that, i got nothin'

Edit: Also just noticed my temperature readings are jumping all over the place while the motor is running. Since that's VFD driven, i have to guess that i have electrical / RFI interference somewhere. I hope the motor windings aren't shorted somewhere. It happened suddenly, and i checked all the wires and nothing is close, and the VFD motor wires are in conduit, so theoretically shielded. Anyone got ideas?

 

[86turbodsl]

Figured it out. Needed a ground wire from power source through vfd all the way to motor. I neglected that on initial wiring. I guess the motor has become a radiator.

 

[Strouty]

That is great that you figured it out, problems like those can get you chasing your tail.

 

[86turbodsl]

Yeah i was really worried about how i was going to fix that problem. I need that VFD to slow oil flow down and i need temps to run the system. I think the motor insulation must be breaking down a bit due to the slow speed. I'm only running the motor at about 250 rpm and it's TEFC so i probably should add a constant speed fan to it. It's the only reason i can think of a sudden change where it causes stray EMI. I ran for months with no grounds on anything.

 

[83VillageRepair]

Yeah i was really worried about how i was going to fix that problem. I need that VFD to slow oil flow down and i need temps to run the system. I think the motor insulation must be breaking down a bit due to the slow speed. I'm only running the motor at about 250 rpm and it's TEFC so i probably should add a constant speed fan to it. It's the only reason i can think of a sudden change where it causes stray EMI. I ran for months with no grounds on anything.

What is the rated speed of the motor? 40 - 80hz is where most motors are happy. if you go much slower you might have to add auxiliary cooling and you will still have shorter life spans. But if you are using used motors and you have a good supply of them it wont really matter. A longer term solution might be to redesign so the motor is in its happy place but you already know that

You are really getting after it this year! I really feel like a slug with my progress compared to you.

Wade

 

[86turbodsl]

It's a 1725rpm motor, 1/4hp 3 phase. I don't remember what the insulation class is. Probably not F. I rationalized it was ok because the motor is so ridiculously oversized for the application. A normal oil burner is 1/7 hp and runs a fan and the pump to make pressure. I'm just moving oil, not pressurizing. So i could probably make due with a 1/20hp motor. So theoretically i'm not putting much heat into the windings. I think if i add a 100pct duty fan in place of the internal fan, i'm probably going to be ok. I wanted to direct drive rather than belt drive because i could easily get a 56C mount that i could machine for the oil burner mount, and the spider coupler for both sides was readily available.

Moving to a smaller pump would be hard, there's not much volume in that little gear pump. Alternative is a belt drive. And i'm not interested in trying to engineer any sort of constant flow rate gravity variable flow mechanism. That sounds like a nightmare to me. The existing pump setup works great except for the inlet screen plugging occasionally and i have the solution to that already.

 

[Strouty]

What about an auxiliary external fan? Keep that way if you ever have to swap the motor out, you wouldn't need to modify it again.

 

[83VillageRepair]

It's a 1725rpm motor, 1/4hp 3 phase. I don't remember what the insulation class is. Probably not F. I rationalized it was ok because the motor is so ridiculously oversized for the application. A normal oil burner is 1/7 hp and runs a fan and the pump to make pressure. I'm just moving oil, not pressurizing. So i could probably make due with a 1/20hp motor. So theoretically i'm not putting much heat into the windings. I think if i add a 100pct duty fan in place of the internal fan, i'm probably going to be ok. I wanted to direct drive rather than belt drive because i could easily get a 56C mount that i could machine for the oil burner mount, and the spider coupler for both sides was readily available.

Moving to a smaller pump would be hard, there's not much volume in that little gear pump. Alternative is a belt drive. And i'm not interested in trying to engineer any sort of constant flow rate gravity variable flow mechanism. That sounds like a nightmare to me. The existing pump setup works great except for the inlet screen plugging occasionally and i have the solution to that already.

Yes little understressed motors will usually run forever like that. I might just throw fan on it if I was worried

 

[86turbodsl]

Ill look thru my parts stash and if i can find a little 120v fan ill throw it in the mixfor a while.

 

[86turbodsl]

Grounds are all hooked up. It's so cold out there, i only have about a 30min window to work before my hands and feet are too cold to function. The VFD runs and temps are pretty stable. Maybe not as stable as during off, but close. I might try grounding the RTD lines too. I looked at the motor, it doesn't have a fan on the end, it's down on the driven end, so i don't think possible to add one. I might have to buy another motor if this one degrades further. I hope to run tonight, there's an ice storm coming tonight, so if we lose power, all bets are off. It's 38 in the shop. I have some time cushion.

 

[Strouty]

Not fun, I know you are proud of this setup, but you may need a backup, just find an old forced hot air furnace. They are cheap and you really don’t need any duct work, just a big 90 off the top and let it blow. They use about 2 gallons an hour of runtime, so you could plumb it off a small tank and just feed it diesel.

 

[86turbodsl]

I've considered that, but i do have a salamander. I can just throw that in the middle and turn it on. It's got a thermostat on it too.

I did some looking around and found a local 1/3HP 3 phase motor that is insulation class F3, and TENV, not fan cooled at all. That thing should basically last forever at these power outputs. My drive is only rated for 1/4hp, but the current draw is so low i think it will be totally fine, as long as i keep the ramp rate lower.

I am still seeing a couple degrees fluctuation more with the drive running than i used to. The grounds helped a TON though. I grounded everything everywhere.

 

[86turbodsl]

50F in the shop now, running for 4 hrs, starting temp 44F. Not too bad. I'll probably shut down for cleaning after supper and hit it again. We have 2F predicted for tomorrow night. If i can keep it at 50F for starting temps every day, i can be pretty comfortable working each night. We'll see how it goes.

 

[86turbodsl]

Ordered the new motor, hopefully that eliminates any future problems with heating windings. Also bought a larger volume expansion tank, as the current 2 gallon one doesn't allow enough expansion for the fluid volume i have. I have to drain water out of the boiler as it warms up to keep from blowing the relief. That's something i want to get away from. Ran the boiler no problems other than cleaning all yesterday, shut it off at 55F for bed. At some point i will get the automatic running setup once i have made a little more progress on things. For now it's pretty hands off other than monitoring and the occasional no-start due to issues that are being worked out.

 

[Strouty]

Sounds like the best way to go, then there is no extra fan or anything. We are going to have low temps tonight too, they say 1 degree, so I won't have many to spare, maybe some of the southern guys can send us a few extras.

 

[kent_323is]

As you just stated you bought a new motor, larger expansion tank.... I'm curious if you have kept a detailed list of all of the parts you have bought to make this system work? You've also purchased many PLC's and other misc parts & pieces.

As Strouty had thrown out the idea of a secondary heat source, like propane furnace, I'll just add that I have the same concept at my shop. electric water heater for floor heat, which keeps it around 40F and then I run a propane furnace for additional heat as needed. I'm not at this shop as much as I'd like, but when I am there, I fire up the propane furnace and have instant heat and brings the working area up nicely. The furnace was free, as I pulled it from a house that was getting demolished, and my cost was just propane hoses and fittings. Minimal ductwork, just 2 large hoses off the main duct at the ceiling to bring the heat down to person level.
Later I intend to upgrade the electric floor heat to a propane boiler, but haven't gotten to that project yet.
I'm heating an area of 50x55' with 16' side walls. I also have an air-to-air solar heater that I made that helps heat the upper mezz area of 16x35'.
The nice thing about this setup is that I flip on the electric breaker in October, and fill propane tanks as they empty. Otherwise it hardly takes any of my time so I can focus on my main project which is basically done now:

 

[86turbodsl]

Wow! Cool project. In answer to your question, my boiler was free from a friend, all the other stuff was stuff i would have had to buy anyway for a commercial boiler install. The burner as you know, is fabricated and is essentially cost of materials. I am by no means anywhere near a commercial boiler price. MAYBE i could have found one used, but waste oil boilers are very hard to find around here. Oil boilers in general even. The PLC's are all second hand off epay and i have saved a LOT of money doing that. Each of the RTD modules are near 400 dollars for instance. I paid about 35 each. As my boy mentioned to me earlier this week when he questioned me about why i do all this stuff, the end goal isn't the only point, i actually enjoy doing this type of problem solving. The journey, as they say, is part of the fun. I am setup to have emergency electric element heat in the tank, which will be circulated by the main pump. I have logic in the burner controls to turn that on in event of a low temp situation. And i also have a salamander i can use on diesel if needed. I am not going to be able to tap into my propane tank. That's a no-go with the house running off it. If the shop pulled propane out to where i ran low, and i had to get an additional delivery, i would not be a happy camper. I budget propane for the house for the winter. Carefully.

Strouty - they are predicting 2F tonight for us. I'm sorry, but i am not going to be sending you any of ours either... sorry man.

 

[Strouty]

They are calling for -25 wind chill tonight and -15 tomorrow morning. I am some glad I am taking a road trip tomorrow, much better than doing anything outside.

 

[86turbodsl]

It's already stupid cold out. And windy. I've got a roaring fire going in shop and house fireplace. Stay warm man.

 

[86turbodsl]

Determined the GM 3800 coil isn't going to work, so back to the drawing board... gave up and ordered an Onan CCK coil and plug wires... sigh...

 

[Strouty]

That stinks the coil didn’t work, stay warm.

 

[86turbodsl]

Yeah it does. The gm coil resistance is 0.4ohm. Way out of pertronix operating envelope. And the wiring of it seems non-standard. Oh well. It's 9F today. We didnt hit the predicted low.

 

[racer-john]

It started out at -12 C this morning here today.

 

[86turbodsl]

So about the same as here. Not sure where Newmarket is in Ontario.

 

[racer-john]

It's halfway between Toronto (the Provincial Capital) and Barrie via Hwy 400 or Hwy 11 (if you like the slow route)

 

[86turbodsl]

Ok, cool. As far as the slow route, last time i drove in Ontario, it was all slow. Seems like everything was marked 45mph-ish.

 

[racer-john]

That must have been in the 50's. We get up to 100k on our 400 series highways now.

 

[86turbodsl]

New motor showed up. It's huge! Especially for a 1/4hp. I understand why they can get away with no fan now.

 

[86turbodsl]

Not sure. It was heading east out of Windsor to an automotive supplier.

For reference, in kph, i regularly hit ~ 145kph on the way to work...

 

[u3b3rg33k]

Figured it out. Needed a ground wire from power source through vfd all the way to motor. I neglected that on initial wiring. I guess the motor has become a radiator.

When I had this on my test bench, I could feel the stray/induced voltage on the motor before I put on the ground wire. no current but not a happy tingly feeling. measured 100V without the ground wire between the motor and VFD. 0V with it on.

Yeah i was really worried about how i was going to fix that problem. I need that VFD to slow oil flow down and i need temps to run the system. I think the motor insulation must be breaking down a bit due to the slow speed. I'm only running the motor at about 250 rpm and it's TEFC so i probably should add a constant speed fan to it. It's the only reason i can think of a sudden change where it causes stray EMI. I ran for months with no grounds on anything.

I have a lot of the 145TC TENV motors as shown above at work (at least 16 of them) used for low speed, low power operation. not one has any cooling, and you can hold your hand on them indefinitely. I've turned on the voltage reducing (energy saver) feature in the WJ200, and that will bring them down from 230V to 80V or so based on what the drive thinks it needs to keep things moving. obviously it's application dependent, but you may not need cooling.

these motors have a thermistor/thermostat in them you can wire to the VFD so if it decides to overheat, the VFD will shut it down (and tell you why).

another fun thing: I have a few massively oversized 3HP cooling fans that are run at 8-10Hz for their application. ODP motors with not much of a fan inside (just the rotor pegs). on the old Mitsubishi Freqrol Z-200 drives, they run pretty toasty. doing the exact same work on a WJ200 or invertek ODE3, they are literally cold to the touch, even after running for days.

New motor showed up. It's huge! Especially for a 1/4hp. I understand why they can get away with no fan now.

I think the bigger/longer motors have higher efficiencies than the older ones did.

 

[86turbodsl]

Day 2 in bed with the 'rona i think. Im usually a 1 day on anything kinda guy. So guessing on it. Everything on hold.