Above 1200 Sq/FT 86's 20HP shop

[bulletpruf]

Yeah, the swap has been done before. I still want one. Anything to stop the bleeding on fuel... Bronco's **** for mpg. That one's got 3.08 too.

The 86 F250 was a daily because my commute at the time was about 20 miles. Who cares at that distance. It was the Golf when i had to drive to Detroit.

If i'm going to retire, are you going to win the lotto and fund me???

Boiler season is indeed upon us.... Hopefully this year is better.

Your YouTube channel is going to fund your retirement!!! The sooner you start, the sooner you can retire!!!

 

[86turbodsl]

A positive note: My kid was tired of where he fell in the automotive queue, so he took it upon himself to reassemble his truck. Correctly no less, and WITHOUT my help! I told him i was very proud of him.

 

[bulletpruf]

A positive note: My kid was tired of where he fell in the automotive queue, so he took it upon himself to reassemble his truck. Correctly no less, and WITHOUT my help! I told him i was very proud of him.

That's awesome news! Good on him!

 

[bimmer1980]

Good to hear there is forward progress on a variety of levels -- your vehicle, the kid's vehicle and that you have heat (albeit with careful input and monitoring).

Any projected timeline for getting your Audi done and out of the shop space? (yes, I know this is a sticky question.....)

 

[86turbodsl]

Right now, the hard work is done with the exception of the exhaust. I did one years ago in mild steel, but without a tig welder. I had my dad's best friend gas weld it together. But i did all the fitting and tacking. i have a better toolset and skillset now, so i am hoping i can grind through it without too much work. Everything else is just bolt on part replacement. I *THINK* i'm at the end of the fastener mess. Seems like the engine got the brunt of the corrosion. The body looks great.
That said, i'm probably looking at Christmas, which will make it a 5 month project. But renewed engine, clutch, trans, suspension, brakes. So a lot of work.

 

[bimmer1980]

OK, gotchya. I was initially thinking you might have a chance of having the car done by the end of T-day weekend (but then I'm an optimist).

However, your aim for Christmas is probably more realistic given the header work and all the other things....

 

[86turbodsl]

Yeah, i'm just about to where i need to make the downpipes. Those have to be on engine before it can slot back in.
I have the 1/4" flanges cut out, need to drill the holes and get em mounted then i can start fab work. Everything for the exhaust
is on hand and the saws are ready to go. I might need another tank of Argon though. Once the downpipes are done, the engine can
go back in. The less time i spend heating the shop up, will pay back handily. So i think first thing Saturday i need to write some code. Or maybe tonight we shall see. I wanted to write some code this morning, but work is too busy this week. That takes priority.

I just finished the everything 3d printer thread, and that has got my juices flowing pretty good. Also this week i got trained on Catia V5, and we are going to be moving to NX at some point in the future, and at that point, i will be trained on all 3 of the big dog CAD programs. I think that's probably the biggest cost of entry to 3d printing, the cad work that people are scared of. So i'm hoping to come up with some really good stuff once the car work settles down.

 

[bulletpruf]

Yeah, i'm just about to where i need to make the downpipes. Those have to be on engine before it can slot back in.
I have the 1/4" flanges cut out, need to drill the holes and get em mounted then i can start fab work. Everything for the exhaust
is on hand and the saws are ready to go. I might need another tank of Argon though. Once the downpipes are done, the engine can
go back in. The less time i spend heating the shop up, will pay back handily. So i think first thing Saturday i need to write some code. Or maybe tonight we shall see. I wanted to write some code this morning, but work is too busy this week. That takes priority.

I just finished the everything 3d printer thread, and that has got my juices flowing pretty good. Also this week i got trained on Catia V5, and we are going to be moving to NX at some point in the future, and at that point, i will be trained on all 3 of the big dog CAD programs. I think that's probably the biggest cost of entry to 3d printing, the cad work that people are scared of. So i'm hoping to come up with some really good stuff once the car work settles down.

3D printing is very interesting, but I've been holding off with hopes that effective and somewhat affordable 3D printers that print in metal will hit the market soon. Having said that, I think we're still several years from that.

Anyway, interested to follow along as you head down that rabbit hole.

 

[86turbodsl]

3D metal printing could be as simple as a mig gun attached to a cnc gantry. Surprised there's none of those around that i've seen.
I already bought a Creality V3 so i am ready to jump in, but so far haven't gotten going on it yet. Too much to do right now.

I wish i could be more productive with my time, but it seems like that almost never happens.

 

[bulletpruf]

I wish i could be more productive with my time, but it seems like that almost never happens.

I think 100% of folks who turn wrenches on older stuff will say the same thing. There are very few instances when the planets line up perfectly, but it's much more common to have a bolt break off or something along those lines, turning a 15 minute job into a 3 hour job...

At least you're not sitting on the couch and watching TV, looking for motivation to go turn a wrench.

 

[86turbodsl]

I think 100% of folks who turn wrenches on older stuff will say the same thing. There are very few instances when the planets line up perfectly, but it's much more common to have a bolt break off or something along those lines, turning a 15 minute job into a 3 hour job...

At least you're not sitting on the couch and watching TV, looking for motivation to go turn a wrench.

doh! I spend too much time doing that. And avoiding going out into the 17F winter wonderland...

Actually i'm at my workstation working on burner automation logic. And cold snacks... never forget cold snacks..

 

[86turbodsl]

So far i have burner logic and timing written. The drum function in Direct logic works nice, once i got nuances figured out. Now i have to figure out what i did with tank temp sensing and write a couple of one-shot routines and then adjust run times and i think i'm there.

 

[86turbodsl]

Looks like i have burner auto logic figured out. It seems to operate correctly. Now to tweak the timing and set a timer up for burner hours and i will release it for testing. Woo hoo! Beer-thirty.

 

[Chrisb62]

I hope all goes well with this latest version.... but if it does ,where will the constant updates come from...... ...............never mind !


Honestly I hope it does work out.... you have enough other things to work on.

 

[86turbodsl]

True enough. We're in the middle of a winter storm warning, so i haven't ventured out to the shop today. I do have the logic working though, and i'm currently working on an hour meter in the software. Once that's done, and i'm close at hand for the day, hopefully tomorrow, i'll cut her loose and watch it for operation. I fell victim to some errors on the house boiler plc, so hopefully i learned from those mistakes.

If this whole thing works, theoretically i just clean the boiler once a day when i go out and let it run by itself the rest of the time.
It should get more friendly when there's a much larger burn chamber in the new one, but that's going to be a while yet.

Edit: spoke too soon. a problem has reared it's ugly head... ugh.

 

[Strouty]

Always something, good luck, I have faith that you will figure out a solution.

 

[86turbodsl]

Ladies and gents, as of 3:50pm, EST on 11/20/22, i can report fully automatic operation of a homebrew babington burner including safeties.

Took some time to figure out the logic, in the end i just treated it as a binary problem. I just treated each characteristic as a on/off choice and setup ladder logic to meet those criteria. Behavior matches desired. I can switch off the controller in house or in shop, and when restarting, behaves as it's supposed to. Will not restart in the middle of a cycle nor if start conditions are not met.

Tested at the shop panel, after a reset, pressing "Start on motor oil" it checks for oil temps over 150F, turns on the oil pump for 2 minutes to stabilize oil temp, turns on the blower for 5 seconds to establish airflow, then ignition for as long as it takes to send the water tank temp up to 140F, at which it shuts the burner down. Restarts the boiler at 120F falling. There is also an hour meter timer on the burner to grab run times between cleanings. As it's currently at 45F in the shop, i expect it will run at least 8 hours tonight before reaching 60F in the shop. I expect to clean the boiler at least once before bed, then probably again in the morning, at which time, i would expect cleanings about 1 every day or two. There's no automatic shutdown for cleanings, it will simply stop running and lock out the ignition. I can reset manually at the burner easily. That should mostly go away with the new boiler design, the new burner tube will be 4X the volume, and should run much longer between cleanings. I can also get fancy at some point and send the alarm contacts on the ignition to the plc, where it can send an email to me over the network to advise of a no-start.

There is some additional flexibility i built into the system to allow different firing rates. Since burner firing is on/off rather than variable, i can change oil flow and air flow rates using separate logic based on temperatures. Since that will be experimentally determined, the burner start/stop logic is completely separated. It's as simple as writing new values to a couple of memory locations to change flow rates during operation. I'll probably need some combustion temp feedback to get to that level of mapping though.

2 days the boiler has been off, it went from 60F to 45F over that time, with outside temps ranging from 30F to 15F overnight. I think its going to be pretty easy to heat.

Thanks for following along!

 

[86turbodsl]

Turned off the floor to test the tank shutoff logic. Should know in 1/2 hour or so.

 

[bulletpruf]

WooHoo!

Wait...if it really does work, how are you going to entertain us for the remainder of the winter????

 

[86turbodsl]

Shutoff logic worked correctly. Burner shut down at 140F tank temp. Should be good to go turn floor back on.

 

[86turbodsl]

WooHoo!

Wait...if it really does work, how are you going to entertain us for the remainder of the winter????

Lol. You don't think anything is going to break??? How long have you been watching???

 

[86turbodsl]

Good morning all, i have some good news to report, the shutdown and restart logic works flawlessly, i can shutdown at the boiler or in the house, clean boiler and restart no problem. I ran from 45F up to about 58F yesterday, then i shut down.

You might be asking yourself why i shutdown. Well, because there's one failure mode yet that i have not addressed and it's a DOOZY.
With conventional oil burners, the ignition controls the pumping as well as the ignition, by shutting the pump / air motor down on a failure.
With my system, the oil flow continues regardless of ignition state. SO, if the burner ignition locks out due to an occasional plugged tube, AND the oil stays running, AND some debris plugs up the drain a bit (it's happened already), the oil pump will happily keep pumping and dumping oil into the burner, which will run down the burner tube into the boiler, and with no attendance at all, it will empty the contents of the storage tank right into the boiler and flow out right onto the shop floor. We CANNOT have that.
So, i will have to add a signal for failed ignition back to the plc to do a shutdown on failed ignition. It's the only responsible thing to do.
And once that's done, it'll truly be done for now, unattended full auto.

I was thinking about failure modes last night and i just wouldn't have slept well if i didn't address it. I *hope* it's not too hard to implement.

 

[kent_323is]

That seems like a pretty important safety feature. Will you use a temperature sensor to sense if ignition has occurred and then use that to shut down oil flow? Conventional furnaces use this to lockout the propane or natural gas if heat isn't sensed after 30sec or so.
Nice work on getting it to run automated, with the exception of the burner cleanout. Hopefully that allows you to stay focused on getting that VW back together and out of the shop.

 

[86turbodsl]

No, i believe i will integrate a set of alarm contacts into the burner control. On oil burner primary ignition, they use a CAD cell to determine proof of fire. No fire/light, and it shuts the primary off and sets a light. I believe i can use the LED as input for an SSR or relay or something. Just tell the plc that it locked out and shut down the oil.

 

[rattle_snake]

Please share gate level logic and boolean expression of control loop thanks

 

[86turbodsl]

i can send you the project file if you can read automation direct logic. If you need a printout, you might be waiting a long time... lol.

 

[Strouty]

I remember the when the exxon Valdez hit the 20 HP shop.....

Glad you got things figured out so far. Out of curiosity, why can't you just use a cad cell and have that be the shut down, don't even have it in the code, just make it a manual shutoff. I would be afraid there is something else you are missing and even though it would work in the logic, it wouldn't work in reality under some strange circumstance, then you get another oil slick to clean up. Cad cell controls pump, no flame no pump, or have it on a ten second delay, but get it dead nuts simple.

 

[bimmer1980]

I think Strouty has a good idea!!!! I would be concerned about the possibility of the oil flood, so simple and "fail-safe" to the rest of the control logic makes good sense.

 

[86turbodsl]

Thanks guys, while i like your idea, it won't work. The primary ignition controls only ignition, not oil pump. Since the oil pump runs at a MUCH reduced speed, it can't do the job off the primary. And that would eliminate the variable speed i think i'm going to be moving to.

I pulled apart the primary tonight, and measured voltages across the lockout led. I got 2V. Not enough to do anything with. Upstream of the LED, i got 5v across two resistors. I soldered a lead to those resistors, and passed to a DC output SSR. That worked to fire the SSR, and i ran the output to a DC input on the PLC. it worked there too. When the SSR fired, i got a proper input on the PLC. So, at this point, it's as simple as adding the logic to kill the burner when the ignition locks out. Easy peasy.

I am checking everything for operation on the plc, then cut it loose with floor off. Should get close to off time by end of night.

 

[86turbodsl]

And, confirming the lockout works. No more issue. At least this one. I ran the burner, pulled the oil flow to the backside of the doorknob, and it flamed out and killed the oil as expected. At this point, i think the biggest risks are quashed. I think it's probably ready for primetime auto operation. Woot!

Also added burner lockout checks all over the program. Triple checked!!!

 

[Monza Harry]

Can I suggest a catch basin of sorts with a pump [including a float switch] to return any errant oil flows to an empty tote?
Also what can be done to self clean your boiler tubes? A water spray down for a moment or two just prior to flame out, (a self supported steam cleaner)? Still following along, Harry

 

[86turbodsl]

I'll have to shoot some photos of the setup as it stands right now, i can't think of any way to prevent that mess other than actually prevent the spill.

I woke up this morning to check the boiler and found it locked out as expected. However, the lockout logic prevented the blower and ignition from shutting off, so i ended up tweaking the logic a bit. Since it was 20F outside, the outdoor air flowing through the boiler overnight got temps down to about 55F at boiler. A downside of the setup is a lockout condition shuts down the boiler, and the ignition being on supplies the power for the lockout itself. I am going to have to have a lockout trigger a flag and shutdown based on the flag which must be reset then, or i'd never have evidence of a lockout in the PLC. A latch basically.

That's what testing is for right?

Work is a hassle still. There's nobody steering the ship. It's like herding cats. I have no authority to do anything, and am the dude being asked to get the task done. And my merit raise depends on it. So i basically have to beg people to do things for me with no power and no incentive and inability to make changes. Frustrating.

 

[bulletpruf]

Work is a hassle still. There's nobody steering the ship. It's like herding cats. I have no authority to do anything, and am the dude being asked to get the task done. And my merit raise depends on it. So i basically have to beg people to do things for me with no power and no incentive and inability to make changes. Frustrating.

Having responsibility but no authority is a real pain in the ***. Hope it works out well.

 

[86turbodsl]

Thanks, but it won't work out. I asked the manager (not mine) point blank - how do you set priority of work in your department? He said "the guys can work on whatever they want until they get tired of it then switch to something else." How am i supposed to work with that?????

 

[86turbodsl]

Confirmed, the shutdown logic blows. I have to turn the plc off and then on again to get it running. I'll keep working on it.

 

[bulletpruf]

Thanks, but it won't work out. I asked the manager (not mine) point blank - how do you set priority of work in your department? He said "the guys can work on whatever they want until they get tired of it then switch to something else." How am i supposed to work with that?????

That's a complete clusterfook...

Here's what's common in the military - figure out who in your organization has drive/determination and capability and ride those horses until they collapse.

 

[86turbodsl]

no such luck in the civy world. peers playing games for sport.

 

[86turbodsl]

Hope everyone had a happy Thanksgiving. We spent it with my sister and mom. Good times and good food.

Back at it again today, just cleaned and started the boiler, it's 55 in the shop, had one mis-start, due to dirty electrodes. I'm ok with occasional issues like this, companies making boilers have lots of r&d time to put into optimizing electrodes and burner components. Still need to massage the burner logic a bit, so it doesn't need an on/off cycle to restart.

We have a rare warm couple of days here today and tomorrow, i'm planning to work on the forklift and get it going if possible. It'd be nice not to leave it outside in the rain and snow for the winter.

 

[Strouty]

You would have a better chance of fixing it if it was inside for sure, or it could be used as a counterweight to make sure the shop doesn't flip over, I have a few of those, either way inside is always better, until it isn't.

Status update on your son and the new job? Enquiring minds want to know.

I hope the warm weather isn't coming with rain, we are getting some 50s, but it will be raining.

 

[ClappedOutBport]

You would have a better chance of fixing it if it was inside for sure, or it could be used as a counterweight to make sure the shop doesn't flip over, I have a few of those, either way inside is always better, until it isn't.

Status update on your son and the new job? Enquiring minds want to know.

I hope the warm weather isn't coming with rain, we are getting some 50s, but it will be raining.

So far I'm doing a great job at keeping my concrete from blowing away! Some of the weights even do other things! Most don't though.