A/C Condensing Unit Broke (Technical Help Needed)

[jonathan75]

I was working in the garage all day today. When I walked in the house it felt warmer then the garage. So I turned down the A/C and went back outside. At the A/C Condensing Unit all I heard was a loud humming noise and the fan was not turning.

I have to leave town tomorrow for work so I am hoping it is something that I could fix for my family before I have to leave for the week. Any suggestions on what to check? I never worked on a condensing unit before but I remember hearing that the starter capacitor goes over time. The unit is a 11 year old Coleman BRCS0301BD. If I do find the problem does anyone know where I can get parts on a Sunday?

Also what could the breaker be for that says A/C in the breaker panel? I turn it off and I see no change anywhere in the house. The whole house fan still runs, the thermostat still works and the condensing unit will still hum.

Here is a video of the noise it will make. The banging at the end is me giving it a few hits for good measure.

Thank you very much for your feedback.

 

[rkevins]

will it keep buzzing as long as the t-stat calls for it to run ?, have you located the contactor in the condensing unit, if so does it pull in when the t-stat calls for the unit to come on? do you have 220vac to the condensing unit? You probley won't find parts houses open on Sunday and hvac guys will charge you a lot extra to come out Sunday

 

[ratman2]

Blew the cap

 

[jonathan75]

will it keep buzzing as long as the t-stat calls for it to run ?, have you located the contactor in the condensing unit, if so does it pull in when the t-stat calls for the unit to come on? do you have 220vac to the condensing unit? You probley won't find parts houses open on Sunday and hvac guys will charge you a lot extra to come out Sunday

Yes, as soon as the thermostat says turn on the A/C the unit outside will buzz like the video.

I will check the contactor and voltage you mentioned first thing in the morning. I found out the unit was broken as the sun started to set.

Blew the cap

Thanks, I will check that also.

 

[sevenzeronova]

Blew the cap

X2 most likely needs dual cap.

 

[jonathan75]

Can I tell the thermostat to keep running the A/C and just pull the disconnect out at the condensing unit when checking things? Then push the disconnect back in while I am looking at it and watching the contactor? Because I will have to do this alone and don't want to keep running back in the house to turn the thermostat back on.

 

[danielzig]

So the buzzing is most likely the contactor in the unit. The contactor is told to pull in by the thermostat. You can not yank the disconnect out at the condenser and cycle the contactor. It is fed 24v from the thermostat./furnace.

Check your voltage on the line and load side of the contactor. I have been on calls as simple as an earwig getting smashed in the contactor contacts and voltage not being able to flow. Otherwise, the capacitor is a good place to start provided you have full voltage on the load side of the contactor.

 

[jonathan75]

So the buzzing is most likely the contactor in the unit. The contactor is told to pull in by the thermostat. You can not yank the disconnect out at the condenser and cycle the contactor. It is fed 24v from the thermostat./furnace.

Check your voltage on the line and load side of the contactor. I have been on calls as simple as an earwig getting smashed in the contactor contacts and voltage not being able to flow. Otherwise, the capacitor is a good place to start provided you have full voltage on the load side of the contactor.

Oh, so the reason I thought the breaker in the garage marked A/C didn't do anything was because the low voltage contactor was making the noise and not anything on the high voltage side. So probably that breaker does cut off power to the disconnect outside.

Thank you for the tips. I will check everything you said in the morning.

 

[jonathan75]

Here is what I found. I checked for continuity when I manually pushed the contactor in and did not get anything. Upon closer inspection I found several ants crushed on both sides of the contact points. So I marked the wires and took everything out to clean and test.

You can see the ants in the last picture. They surround the contacts like pigs eating out of a trough.

 

[jonathan75]

The capacitor is testing good and looks okay. I just cleaned the contact points on the cap and the plug ends.

For the contactor I sprayed contact cleaner in and flushed out all the ants. Then I rubbed the contact points together to clean them because it won't come apart. They used some rivets on the plunger that prevents disassemble. It looks very worn still but at least I get continuity now.

I put everything back together and works great! Thanks for everyone's feedback.

Should I order a new contactor or just keep run it the way it is? I got about 2 ohms resistance between the contacts right now.

 

[AP514]

Hope You Do not have Crazy Ants...Kill them as fast as you can they go for ALL Electrical stuff. They Will burn your house to the ground if they get into your main box and or other relays..Huge problem here in Texas.
Fire ants or not KILL the ants quick...they will screw up a lot of stuff if not controlled ASAP

NOTE:
Crazy Ants look like Red Fire Ants but do not follow each other in a line... They just Meander around...Hence the NAME... Also they are attracted to Electrical stuff like a BEE to Honey...

 

[jonathan75]

Hope You Do not have Crazy Ants...Kill them as fast as you can they go for ALL Electrical stuff. They Will burn your house to the ground if they get into your main box and or other relays..Huge problem here in Texas.
Fire ants or not KILL the ants quick...they will screw up a lot of stuff if not controlled ASAP

NOTE:
Crazy Ants look like Red Fire Ants but do not follow each other in a line... They just Meander around...Hence the NAME... Also they are attracted to Electrical stuff like a BEE to Honey...

I sprayed Bangle all over the inside and the outside. Bangle works very good and will kill everything that walks over it. It is called roach spray but I killed five ant mounds with it this year so far.

http://www.bengal.com/roach_spray.html

 

[jonathan75]

Any thoughts on this contactor on eBay? I noticed that the contacts are sealed in this one and not exposed like mine.

Luxaire York Coleman 1 Pole 30 AMP Contactor 24 Volt 310015Q2115 02427531000 http://r.ebay.com/19FvY0

 

[danielzig]

Any thoughts on this contactor on eBay? I noticed that the contacts are sealed in this one and not exposed like mine.

Luxaire York Coleman 1 Pole 30 AMP Contactor 24 Volt 310015Q2115 02427531000 http://r.ebay.com/19FvY0

Looks like it will work fine. Seems to match the specs on your old one.

 

[Dehno]

Unless the contacts look burned out or damaged, id just keep the old one in. The ants were most likely enough to block voltage. Never hurts to get a new one to keep on hand though

 

[LS6 Tommy]

On an 11 year old machine I'm surprised the contactor lasted that long. I'd spend the $$ for a new one.

Tommy

 

[Dehno]

It definitely won't hurt to change.

 

[jonathan75]

It is burned up good on the lower contact. Looks like the ants made a spark gap.

 

[jonathan75]

On an 11 year old machine I'm surprised the contactor lasted that long. I'd spend the $$ for a new one.

Tommy

It definitely won't hurt to change.

I am still out of town but I ordred a new contactor. It should arrive by the end of the week. Just hope I get to go back home to install it.

Actually Tommy you are right. Most of my neighboors have new units several years ago. Not sure if they got talked out of the repairs or not? One neighboor has a leak in his and the A/C company told him it will be cheaper to get a new unit then fix it.

So for the last 11 years I have spent under $200 dollars in repairs. Spent $20 for a relay for the air handler around 5 years ago, around $100 to get the unit charged up from some guy on Craigslist 2 years ago and $21 this time for the contactor. But I probably saved a lot of money doing the work myself and finding a guy on Craiglist to charge it.

How much would a profesional charge this time if they were honest about what my issue was? Just wondering because it helps me justify my tool purchases to my Wife.

 

[theoldwizard1]

For the contactor I sprayed contact cleaner in and flushed out all the ants. Then I rubbed the contact points together to clean them because it won't come apart. They used some rivets on the plunger that prevents disassemble. It looks very worn still but at least I get continuity now.

Unless the contacts look burned out or damaged, id just keep the old one in.

Order one. Keep it as a spare.

 

[metlmunchr]

How much would a profesional charge this time if they were honest about what my issue was? Just wondering because it helps me justify my tool purchases to my Wife.

A legitimate and honest repair company would charge you about $50 for the contactor, about 1 hour on-site labor assuming he had the contactor on his truck (which he should, since this same contactor has been used across multiple brands for a number of years) plus travel time which of course depends on how far you are from the servicing company.

Overall, something in the $160 to $200 range would be reasonable assuming you're within 10 miles or so of the servicer's location.

Unfortunately there's about as many flim-flammers in the residential HVAC business as there are in the used car business. I wouldn't be one bit surprised to see a $400 bill for this job from some of those clowns. Nor would I be surprised to hear that one of them told you it would be so expensive to fix the unit that you'd be better off to buy a new one.

On older R-22 units, the price of refrigerant has gone up significantly over the last couple years. I bought a 30# jug of R-22 yesterday to recharge my own unit after repairing a leak. The jug cost $250, or about $8.35/lb. A reasonable selling price would be in the $20/lb range once losses and markup are figured in. But there's a lot of people around who're selling R-22 at upward of $50/lb. That helps push the sale of new units when they quote $800 to repair a leak and recharge a system when it should cost $350 or less.

My dad is now retired and I've been doing machining and fabrication work for the last few years, but we were in the HVAC contracting business here in NC for 46 years, so I'm not making wild guesses as to what is reasonable and who's prices qualify them as nothing more than legalized thieves.

 

[Falcon67]

A legitimate and honest repair company would charge you about $50 for the contactor, about 1 hour on-site labor assuming he had the contactor on his truck (which he should, since this same contactor has been used across multiple brands for a number of years) plus travel time which of course depends on how far you are from the servicing company.

Cap replacement here with a legit company that we've used many times - $125/hr, one hr min, plus trip (25 miles) plus part. Dual cap was $250ish. After hours charge was like $145 plus trip.

 

[joel63]

The capacitor is testing good and looks okay. I just cleaned the contact points on the cap and the plug ends.

For the contactor I sprayed contact cleaner in and flushed out all the ants. Then I rubbed the contact points together to clean them because it won't come apart. They used some rivets on the plunger that prevents disassemble. It looks very worn still but at least I get continuity now.

I put everything back together and works great! Thanks for everyone's feedback.

Should I order a new contactor or just keep run it the way it is? I got about 2 ohms resistance between the contacts right now.

I 've encountered the ants on the contactor problem myself.
And the unit was less than a year old on a second story roof.

It looks you did a good job tracking your problem.

In addition to replacing the contactor, I would replace the capacitor (just for preventative maintenance). They're fairly inexpensive.

 

[Dehno]

On older R-22 units, the price of refrigerant has gone up significantly over the last couple years. I bought a 30# jug of R-22 yesterday to recharge my own unit after repairing a leak. The jug cost $250, or about $8.35/lb. A reasonable selling price would be in the $20/lb range once losses and markup are figured in. But there's a lot of people around who're selling R-22 at upward of $50/lb. That helps push the sale of new units when they quote $800 to repair a leak and recharge a system when it should cost $350 or less.

Last year 22 was about $450 a jug our cost. I hated charging people what we had to charge, and I'd usually flat out tell them
what we paid for it so they wouldn't think I was trying to rip them off. Thankfully, it's a lot cheaper this year but it's still just under $300 a jug here. A lot of people who we're getting their old system charged up yearly decided to upgrade last year, which is fine with me.

With the price of 22 and some of the newer coils that leak after a few years, I really do hate finding a 22 unit low on charge.

 

[Dehno]

Cap replacement here with a legit company that we've used many times - $125/hr, one hr min, plus trip (25 miles) plus part. Dual cap was $250ish. After hours charge was like $145 plus trip.

If the $250 is the price of the cap itself, that's ridiculous. Ours run customers about $40 bucks depending on rating. $250 better have a lifetime replacement or something with it.

 

[jonathan75]

Thank you for all the feedback on costs. It really helps put things in perspective. I am just glad that I can usually fix most things that break around the house.

It is nice to have great technical support here on Garage Journal. I told my wife I asked the whole world for help so I am sure we can find the problem quickly. When you own a house it really improves your skill set and experience in almost every trade there is.

Joel, I didn't order a capacitor since it tested okay but I did just get back home and found that the contactor came in the mail yesterday. I will replace the contactor tomorrow morning when it is cooler and update this thread with some pictures of the new one. The contactor looks great and the contacts are sealed under a cover.

 

[Dehno]

Make sure you turn the stat to off before you change the contactor, otherwise you'll still have 24 volts on the coil. You can carefully take each wire off with the 24 still active, just be careful not to hit anything.

 

[jonathan75]

Make sure you turn the stat to off before you change the contactor, otherwise you'll still have 24 volts on the coil. You can carefully take each wire off with the 24 still active, just be careful not to hit anything.

Thanks for the reminder.

 

[jonathan75]

So I went to change the contactor this morning and the pipes were frozen solid. I am not sure if it is because the 100% humidity or what? I never really checked it out much before so I am not sure how often this has happened in the past. The air coming out of the vents in the house were very weak, only a slight breeze. So I figured that the ice must be under the house too on the A coil blocking the air flow. So I turned it to fan only and left the house to pick up some things.

When I got back everything was defrosted that I could see. I also sucked out the condensation line to see if maybe it was a backup causing it to freeze. I did get a lot of dirty water with mud in it so I am not sure if that was the problem or not. Now I am not getting any water coming out but can hear some water noises up the pipe. Does it take time to build up to the point it will drain again? I will keep my eye on it to see if water starts to flow again. I went under the house and can hear dripping noises.

I will split the pictures up in a couple of posts.

 

[jonathan75]

Why is there two drain lines? One is not connected to a pipe. Is it is emergency overflow?

 

[jonathan75]

More drain line pictures. And the picture of the pipe defrosted. It still has not frosted back up again yet.

Update: When I woke up from my nap the paper towel was soaked with water. I guess I sucked out so much water that there was nothing built up to drain.

 

[jonathan75]

I just ordered a GE Genteq Capacitor Dual Run Round 35/5 uf MD 440 Volt VAC 97F9848 on eBay. I wanted to stick to GE since that is what I have now and it still works. So they must be good quality or I am just lucky. They wanted $35 for it local so I found one on eBay cheaper for $19.99.

I figured that since they go bad so often and it is 11 years old that my number will be up soon. As much as I have to travel out of town I don't want it to go bad when I am away.

This months issue of The Family Handyman teaches you how to fix common A/C issues and recommends to replace the capacitor every 5 years. And yesterday when I was giving my pressure washer to a neighbor to use he told me his went bad two years ago and his house is around two years older then mine. So it sounds like I am on borrowed time right now.

 

[jonathan75]

I hope someone can help me with this issue. My house is very warm again and there is no air flow. As soon as I went downstairs I knew something was wrong because it said 80F and it was set to 77F. At first I thought it was just because it is always hot upstairs. So I went outside and everything is iced up, so I assume it is the same under the house blocking the flow. Hopefully being frozen solid did not damage the compressor.

What could be causing this? There is ice all the way up to the compressor and I assume the A coil is blocked with ice also. Right now I have it on fan only to hopefully melt things off.

 

[danielzig]

I don't really like the advice to change it every 5 years, seems wasteful.

Anyway, the freezing is usually caused by one of two issues.
1. Airflow. The required amount of air is not moving over the evaporator (clogged filter, bad blower motor)
2. Refrigerant leak. Refrigerant should never leak from a system. If it does, it needs to be repaired and recharged. These are closed systems that should not need refrigerant yearly.

 

[jonathan75]

I don't really like the advice to change it every 5 years, seems wasteful.

Anyway, the freezing is usually caused by one of two issues.
1. Airflow. The required amount of air is not moving over the evaporator (clogged filter, bad blower motor)
2. Refrigerant leak. Refrigerant should never leak from a system. If it does, it needs to be repaired and recharged. These are closed systems that should not need refrigerant yearly.

Yeah I agree, it does seem a waste every 5 years. But after 11 years I think I want to do it because I leave town so much. Hate it to go when I am away.

I will change my air filter and check my A coil tomorrow. I wonder if my whole house humidifier that is right before the coil clogged it with calcium and lime deposits? What is the best way to safely clean the coil?

Hopefully it is not a leak. That is why one of my neighbors just got a new unit.

 

[danielzig]

Doubtful on the lime and calcium. It looks like you have a cased coil. There should be access doors on the front and possibly the back. If you have the room, I would try getting at the intake side of the coil by sliding those doors forward.

There are usually two drains. One is the normal drain and the other drain will start draining if the main becomes clogged. Sometimes installers will pipe the emergency drain to a shutdown switch or drain it to an extremely noticeable location.

 

[jonathan75]

Doubtful on the lime and calcium. It looks like you have a cased coil. There should be access doors on the front and possibly the back. If you have the room, I would try getting at the intake side of the coil by sliding those doors forward.

There are usually two drains. One is the normal drain and the other drain will start draining if the main becomes clogged. Sometimes installers will pipe the emergency drain to a shutdown switch or drain it to an extremely noticeable location.

I have pictures a few posts up of the drains when I went under the house. I am taking temp readings now and will update. The ice melted and I am running it again.

Update: Using a stem thermometer I am getting 68F coming out of a register and 77F at the air filter, and it is 80F in my house. I stuck the probe into the filter and down into the register.

My infrared thermometer was saying 61F at the register but I didn't trust it and got the stem.

 

[jonathan75]

I picked up some coil cleaner today, but I felt too sick after work today to get started. Any tips for the best method to do this? Hopefully I can clean it tomorrow.

 

[jonathan75]

Everything is cleaned up now. It was not a easy job. First I vacuumed, blower, vacuumed and washed. Now it looks much better. Actually I was surprised that it looks like most of the dirt and clogging was from the heating coil and not the A/C. The Apollo Hydro-heat was very dirty with a lot of **** on it that would block airflow. Actually everything in there is gross, I can't believe that we have to breath that ****. There needs to be a better way to cool a house because this just ***** with all the contamination. There is not a good way to clean everything up well.

Here are the before pictures.

 

[jonathan75]

Also I noticed that there was a large gap over the A Coil. I closed the gap with foil tape. Please tell me if I should leave the gap there or not. It just didn't see right to have warm air pass on top of the coil and not force it all through the coil.

I could feel air coming in around the pipes on the bottom. I sealed those up because I didn't want to breath in air from under the house.

Hopefully this will fix my ice up issues.

Here are the after pictures.