A/C Freon supply line

[Chaznsc]

So our air conditioner guy thinks we have a leak in the line from the attic to the outside condenser unit. Provided a cost of $1500 to replace the line. Attic is above the second story, and my guess is there is 40 feet of line required.

How does the price sound?

 

[rlitman]

Around here, the cost to repair a leak is in that neighborhood. He's got to evacuate the system, pressurize it with nitrogen, and find and repair the leak. Then there's the recharge cost, and R22 isn't cheap.

As for replacing the line, I doubt that's actually part of the job. Certainly not 40' of it. He's just going to butter over the leak with some brazing rod.

 

[Chaznsc]

Around here, the cost to repair a leak is in that neighborhood. He's got to evacuate the system, pressurize it with nitrogen, and find and repair the leak. Then there's the recharge cost, and R22 isn't cheap.

As for replacing the line, I doubt that's actually part of the job. Certainly not 40' of it. He's just going to butter over the leak with some brazing rod.

Not much chance of finding the leak as it’s in the walls. His quote indicated that replacement would normally be $3000, but but because of our new system, they rescued the cost. They have done numerous tests on the indoor and outdoor units and cannot find a leak.

 

[Jim greengo]

How about just finding the leak and repairing it instead?

 

[Chaznsc]

How about just finding the leak and repairing it instead?

Line is inside the walls.

I just want to know if the price is fair.

 

[Dagny]

That is probably what he is going to do. If he already isolated the evaporator and condenser and pressurized them independently and determined they don't leak. This type of problem can be very frustrating and eat up a lot of time. A leak in the line is not very common unless they are laying on top of something hard.

 

[Jim greengo]

Line is inside the walls.

I just want to know if the price is fair.

It's usually not the line that's the problem,its a fitting on 1 end or the other most of the time.
Unless of course somebody stuck a nail into the lineset,which tends to be pretty obvious.
I'd isolate the condensing unit and pump the lineset and coil full of nitrogen and check things 1st.

 

[ChevyEFI]

Sounds like you're ready to climb in the wall and fix the problem if the price is unfair.

Did he break down the esti. for you? 6 foot linesets used to be < 100 when I was doing this kind of work and I doubt they are now. I would guess if it is a replacement of the whole line there is actually decent materials cost, plus a regular recovery and recharge process. If you don't do AC work at all, the esti. seems reasonable to get 'er done this time of year.

But with non-mobile systems, it would feel a lot better to have some assurance the leak is definitely located, not assumed. Find out if the last part of Jim Greengo's post was performed.

 

[rustrunner]

I'm with Jim on this one. Leaking from a flare fitting or leaking from condenser, or evaporator. I'd get someone else to look at it.

 

[Chaznsc]

Sounds like you're ready to climb in the wall and fix the problem if the price is unfair.

Not a chance in hell.

Whats involved in leak testing a line in the wall?

 

[brewchief]

Price is fair, other option would be to open up the walls to inspect the entire lineset, there could be a nail poking it or there could be a hidden braze joint that is leaking.

There is a chance that the lineset is fine and the leak is in either the indoor or outdoor unit, most likely in one of the coils.

Isolating the lineset and pressurizing it with nitrogen may find it but it might not, if the leak is small it can take a long time to show. I had a dehumidifier on the bench last week that was replaced under warranty, it appeared to have a slight leak, it will hold 500 psi of nitrogen with zero drop overnight yet won't pull below 500 microns of vacuum.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[rlitman]

Whats involved in leak testing a line in the wall?

Well, if the line is leaking into a "sealed" chamber (the interior of a wall), any refrigerant should be VERY easy to pick up using a refrigerant leak detector. Are there any openings into that wall they can stick the detector probe into?

 

[Git]

I wonder if this would be a good opportunity to make lemonade out of lemons

Around here, people pay to have their outside condenser moved because they didn't like where the builder placed it. (we were going to move both of ours at one point) At least for me, it would feel better if I thought I was actually 'upgrading' instead of just throwing money at a repair

If they replace your existing line, do they have to open the walls anyways?

 

[dogdog]

Sounds expensive to me consider a coil of 50' of 3/8 7/8 line set is only about $250-ish..

https://hvacdirect.com/accessories/line-sets.html

not sure if how much you factor in the refrigiant and the nitrogen labor

 

[kaffine]

If they ran hard pipe vs coil then there could be several joints in the wall that might leak.

Is he going to replace the line in the wall or is he going to run a new one on the outside?

 

[phansen39]

How about just finding the leak and repairing it instead?

Sounds like its in the wall. Alot cheaper to rerun the lineset than open up the walls. If ithe installation is new the lineset probably has a trim nail in it.

 

[metaldad]

thinks it the line set doesnt sit well with me.
a reduced price, is good. but, then, 3k is excessive. how are they going to install it? and - is the contract going to be written - that the repair WILL make the system bullet proof?
how old is the system?i see now new. new equipment is microchannel. aluminum bonded to copper. bond areas are suspect. flavor of refrigerant?new, would be r410, which is a gas when leaks doesnt like to be detected
1500, once you figure in the shops cost, is reasonable to an extent. and - what eggactly are they doing, and how, for 1500?
and they put in a new system, using the old lines???? that is not quite right in itself.

 

[Jim greengo]

Sounds like its in the wall. Alot cheaper to rerun the lineset than open up the walls. If ithe installation is new the lineset probably has a trim nail in it.

Call me crazy but if you put a nail in a lineset ,its going to make a whole lot of noise.

 

[metaldad]

ok, jim, youre crazy!
well, the owner should know, who pounded a nail thru the wall hanging a picture.
and jah, it'll make noise. mebbe even make a cloud!

 

[Jim greengo]

ok, jim, youre crazy!
well, the owner should know, who pounded a nail thru the wall hanging a picture.
and jah, it'll make noise. mebbe even make a cloud!

So my wife and my therapist were right,just dont let her know!

 

[kaffine]

Not a chance in hell.

Whats involved in leak testing a line in the wall?

Well if I was was out of options and really wanted to test the line set. Cut the pipes at both ends and braze caps on one end and a fitting on the other and pressurize with nitrogen.

 

[Chaznsc]

ok, jim, youre crazy!
well, the owner should know, who pounded a nail thru the wall hanging a picture.
and jah, it'll make noise. mebbe even make a cloud!

The system is brand new as of May 31. The system leaks down but doesn’t completely evacuate. They have checked and rechecked the outside and inside units and claim no leak. I don’t like throwing money at a problem, especially MY money.

The company is a reputable one and we have been happy with their responsiveness. I just can’t get past $1500.

 

[metaldad]

The system is brand new as of May 31. The system leaks down but doesn’t completely evacuate. They have checked and rechecked the outside and inside units and claim no leak. I don’t like throwing money at a problem, especially MY money.

The company is a reputable one and we have been happy with their responsiveness. I just can’t get past $1500.

i can't blame you. 1500 is a lot of money. finding a contractor that you are comfortable with, is a rarity these days, it seems.
the line set, is older than you new system, correct?
the new system - leak rate is hi enough, that 3 months of use, will affect operation? you should be able to actually hear the leak.
the old system - did it hold pressure?
if it didnt, did it seem to leak at the same rate as the new? that, in itself, will direct you which way to lean. as previously stated by others, really rare to have a leak develop in a line set. usually they're a continuous piece of copper. only knuckleheads like me run it in hard pipe, with fittings and couplings. really rare to have a joint somewhere in the middle, and then begin to leak. you havent mentioned doing anything to the wall, or attic/crawl/basement that might have compromised the tubing.

 

[Chaznsc]

i can't blame you. 1500 is a lot of money. finding a contractor that you are comfortable with, is a rarity these days, it seems.
the line set, is older than you new system, correct?
the new system - leak rate is hi enough, that 3 months of use, will affect operation? you should be able to actually hear the leak.
the old system - did it hold pressure?
if it didnt, did it seem to leak at the same rate as the new? that, in itself, will direct you which way to lean. as previously stated by others, really rare to have a leak develop in a line set. usually they're a continuous piece of copper. only knuckleheads like me run it in hard pipe, with fittings and couplings. really rare to have a joint somewhere in the middle, and then begin to leak. you havent mentioned doing anything to the wall, or attic/crawl/basement that might have compromised the tubing.

The house was built in the 80's, not sure whren the line was run, but I would assume that at time.

The previous unit was leakins to the point it would stop cooling altoither. We were told by the previous company we used that it was the coils were shot. They supposedly did an expensive test on it last suimmer. We chose to patch it with an injection, and it held all last summer.

So this spruing, the same old same old, system not cooling at all. I was worn out with the sorryness of the previous company, so we chose this one. I have to admut I love working with them. They installed a new unit, and I noticed some weeks later that it was cooling, but not really "keeping up" with the heat. It WAS cooling, but seemed slow to cool. They came out and the system was low on freion, so they toippped it off. Few weeks later, same thing. Finally, last week, we had the other unit serviced and the technician checked the new system out of courtesy and it was low again.

So whatever it is, its a slow leak and it doesnt get to the level of not working.

I understand enhough about the system to call for help.

Thank you for the reply.

 

[Jim greengo]

The house was built in the 80's, not sure whren the line was run, but I would assume that at time.

The previous unit was leakins to the point it would stop cooling altoither. We were told by the previous company we used that it was the coils were shot. They supposedly did an expensive test on it last suimmer. We chose to patch it with an injection, and it held all last summer.

So this spruing, the same old same old, system not cooling at all. I was worn out with the sorryness of the previous company, so we chose this one. I have to admut I love working with them. They installed a new unit, and I noticed some weeks later that it was cooling, but not really "keeping up" with the heat. It WAS cooling, but seemed slow to cool. They came out and the system was low on freion, so they toippped it off. Few weeks later, same thing. Finally, last week, we had the other unit serviced and the technician checked the new system out of courtesy and it was low again.

So whatever it is, its a slow leak and it doesnt get to the level of not working.

I understand enhough about the system to call for help.

Thank you for the reply.

Well if the guy just keeps topping it off without fixing the leak,and then hes surprised when it leaks down again?
Theres something wrong with that picture!

 

[Chaznsc]

Well if the guy just keeps topping it off without fixing the leak,and then hes surprised when it leaks down again?
Theres something wrong with that picture!

First visit, replaced a shredder valve
Second visit, double checked all fittings, etc
Third visit - topped it off interim
Follow up to third, no system leak detected, recommended replacing main line.

 

[metaldad]

so, it did leak before.
they should have found leakage, upon initial install. most install crews get in, get out. no extra steps.
i would now surmise, bite the bullet, and invest some more hard earned cash
i would need, some sort of written guarantee.
new equipment, should have some sort of bumper to bumper. at least a year, some 5, some 10. do a little negotiating. might be able to reduce that cost, or add warranty.
next question - how do they propose to replace, into an existing wall?
(schraeder valve is common 'get out of dodge' quick (non)repair. if the caps were properly tightened - schraeder wont leak to atmosphere. unless they used plastic caps, instead of brass)

 

[samss]

Replacing a line set in the wall is a pain and sometimes more practical to figure out a different route. The pipe insulation does breakdown eventually though and sometimes the lineset size needs to be changed.
At this point, I'd do as kaffine suggested. Cap one end of each line and braze a schraeder valve in the other end. Pressurize each line and leave it at least overnight.
Copper tubing can crack. Most cracks I've found were in places where the tubing was bent or subjected to vibration.

 

[Wamsutta]

The company is a reputable one and we have been happy with their responsiveness. I just can’t get past $1500.

I can't get past the A/C line being inside a wall; that blows my mind.

 

[kaffine]

I can't get past the A/C line being inside a wall; that blows my mind.

I don't think I have seen a house that doesn't have it in the wall unless the HVAC was replaced after the house was built. Not many people are willing to pay to have them run in the wall on a replacement. That may explain why I am also used to seeing hard pipe it is easier to install than trying snake the tubing through the wall.

 

[rlitman]

...The previous unit was leakins to the point it would stop cooling altoither. We were told by the previous company we used that it was the coils were shot. They supposedly did an expensive test on it last suimmer. We chose to patch it with an injection, and it held all last summer.

So this spruing, the same old same old, system not cooling at all. I was worn out with the sorryness of the previous company, so we chose this one...

So you put leak fill in the circuit, and then kept the old lineset in service when you replaced the rest of the system. Oy.

 

[Jim greengo]

so, it did leak before.
they should have found leakage, upon initial install. most install crews get in, get out. no extra steps.
i would now surmise, bite the bullet, and invest some more hard earned cash
i would need, some sort of written guarantee.
new equipment, should have some sort of bumper to bumper. at least a year, some 5, some 10. do a little negotiating. might be able to reduce that cost, or add warranty.
next question - how do they propose to replace, into an existing wall?
(schraeder valve is common 'get out of dodge' quick (non)repair. if the caps were properly tightened - schraeder wont leak to atmosphere. unless they used plastic caps, instead of brass)

Problem being that most pump and run guys are too busy to even check shrader valves ,they will just come back and keep selling you more freon or tell you your A coil is bad.
If I had a buck for every bad A coil that somebody wanted a 2nd opinion on that ended up being a loose shrader valve.
Come back a year later after fixing it and it's still running fine.
Another one installers seem to blow past is tightening up the nut on coil where the piston is installed,plastic washer seals it for a while till it vibrates loose.
Always check the simple things.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Not much chance of finding the leak as it’s in the walls. His quote indicated that replacement would normally be $3000, but but because of our new system, they rescued the cost. They have done numerous tests on the indoor and outdoor units and cannot find a leak.

Wait, the system has leaked since it was new? Leak repair/lineset replacement is on them.

Tommy

 

[Chaznsc]

So you put leak fill in the circuit, and then kept the old lineset in service when you replaced the rest of the system. Oy.

I didnt "do" anything. The old system had a leak sealant applied by my previous company. I had a new company come in an do what they recommended. they were aware of the history.

 

[Chaznsc]

Wait, the system has leaked since it was new? Leak repair/lineset replacement is on them.

Tommy

The old system leaked - We understood it was the coils
The new system apparantly leaks as well. The new company thinks its the lineset.
Im just the chap writing checks.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

The old system leaked - We understood it was the coils
The new system apparantly leaks as well. The new company thinks its the lineset.
Im just the chap writing checks.

I get that. What I'm saying is that if the "new" company installed the lineset, it's their problem. You shouldn't have to lay out a penny.

Tommy

 

[jayoldschool]

Exactly. This was installed three months ago and has leaked since? Tell them to fix it on their dime.

 

[Git]

Personally I would be pretty pissed. If the /new HVAC Contractor was aware of your previous problems (sounds like he was) and offered a solution, I am having a hard time understanding why he would not be responsible for a leaking lineset? Unless he specifically recommended a new line set, you balked, and he said the old one would probably work (or something along the lines)

It like getting the ac compressor fixed in your car after it blew up - only a hack would replace just the compressor...

 

[fitter30]

Reclaim refrigerant cut lines at evap coil and condenser and cap. Pressurized lines with nitrogen since there will very little volume if the leak is in the lines should show up pretty quick.

 

[Chaznsc]

Here is the email I sent hime last night. No response from him.

Thank you for sending me the numbers regarding a new line set. I understand that sometimes other things factor in, but this could have been discovered during the install in my opinion. XXXX knew they were coming into a leaking system. I completely explained the history here and in my mind something else could have been done to avoid this. We have had 4 follow up visits, with the last 2 not being proactive by XXXX by at my asking. Like everything that’s got some hindsight involved, I am trying to be understanding of that. It just seems that a simple vacuum placed on the line would have revealed a leak while the install was happening. I seem to be paying the premium for that not happening.

Lastly and importantly, what if this doesn’t fix it? Do I keep pouring money into it until it resolves itself?

I’m going to have to think about this for a bit. I’m normally the guy who just pays and moves on, but this frankly sets badly with me. I’m somewhere between disappointed and unhappy.

Respectfully,