A conundrum in my mind.........your thoughts?

[reman]

I know some here will say that you never shop at Harbor Freight, because they sell cheap Chinese junk. But I will bet that the majority do shop there at times, at least for certain items. As for me, I love shopping there. I know they sell junk, but they also sell some quality items, and in my opinion , are slowly but steadily improving in this area. But in these unprecedented times that we are all experiencing, I am feeling the "Buy American" urge greater than ever. I do and always have felt that America needed to restore our great industrial leadership and manufacture a great portion of what we need. I also feel an urge to not support China. I know change comes slow, when it comes at all. But therein lies my conundrum. Right now we need to support each other and our great country more than ever. Do we need to change our shopping habits? If so, when? Do we begin to discard our former "go to's" such as HF? Do we wait and see where our relationship with China ends up? I am very interested in hearing some others' thoughts on this. Please Do Not Let Discussion Get Political.

 

[BigGarage]

I know some here will say that you never shop at Harbor Freight, because they sell cheap Chinese junk. But I will bet that the majority do shop there at times, at least for certain items. As for me, I love shopping there. I know they sell junk, but they also sell some quality items, and in my opinion , are slowly but steadily improving in this area. But in these unprecedented times that we are all experiencing, I am feeling the "Buy American" urge greater than ever. I do and always have felt that America needed to restore our great industrial leadership and manufacture a great portion of what we need. I also feel an urge to not support China. I know change comes slow, when it comes at all. But therein lies my conundrum. Right now we need to support each other and our great country more than ever. Do we need to change our shopping habits? If so, when? Do we begin to discard our former "go to's" such as HF? Do we wait and see where our relationship with China ends up? I am very interested in hearing some others' thoughts on this. Please Do Not Let Discussion Get Political.

The bottom line is this; nobody is going to pay more money for anything that is cheaper and the same quality from another country.

We laughed at Japanese cars until they took over our auto industry with quality products.

We laughed at Mexican products.

We laugh at Chinese products.

Anything that is a comparable quality for less money is what people will buy.

Dennis

 

[Bill Bowman]

Sometimes buying American is a trick. Just repaired (collision damage) a 2018 Buick LaCrosse, which was hit rather solid in the right rear. Every trim piece we sourced from GM (OEM) had "China" embossed on the back side.

 

[calif phil]

I have been in HF maybe a few times and while the price is tempting. I always walk out empty handed and buy American made if possible. China wants to rule the world and we are helping them with every Chinese purchase.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Lassen Forge]

All we need is for the government to try to bring our industry back... some have gotten ****-hurt because I said instead of giving people a $1200 fish,put our people back to work by rebuilding our industry, building our working base and putting our factories able to reopen and our people back to work..

 

[ddawg16]

This a perfect example of capitalism.

Yes, I buy at HF....for some items, it's just economic sense...key point 'economic'....like their paint brushes....they are cheap enough to use once and throw away. I have their 42" lower box....it's a good box.....but I'm not going to buy their upper....

BigGarage posted what I've been saying as well.....I call it the evolution of manuf.

I'm guessing the next one we laugh at will be 'Made in Iraq'..........

 

[Stuart in MN]

I wonder how many times this topic has been rehashed here...maybe not every single week, but a couple times a month at any rate.

 

[MBfreak]

Here in Sweden there are a two chains like HF, ( but of course MUCH smaller)
It bothers me some, and I always buy metal cutting tools ( drillbits, taps, files, shears) at markets with old car parts and tools. There are many small shop owners selling of their NOS tools. Better taps, drillbits, files and pliers than were made in Sweden before the end of the 60´s can not be found.

What worries me a LOT more is the supply management religion that has totally crashed the government health system here.
Lack of basic commodities like wet wipes, toilet tissue, PPE resulting from years of a race to the bottom. 8 months ago all regions placed their orders with some new oufit run by criminals behind a "honest" facade. And any company that loses a big order starts lawsuits that postpone the process for many months.

What worries me most is the medicine and pharmaceutical supplies.
It is time to nationalize ALL medicine/pharma manufacturing and be self reliant.
A small country like Sweden comes way down on any procurement list from a large Chinese or Indian supplier.

The free movement of capital has screwed us up.
The US president is on the right track.


Ola

 

[MushCreek]

I always thought that the dependence on offshore manufacturing was a bad idea. One of the main reasons we can't get the supplies needed to fight the virus is because so much of this stuff is now made in... China. I have yet to hear anyone mention that on the news.

I'm like a broken record with this, but- consider WWII. When the Japanese attacked us, they had vast superiority in the Pacific. We were caught flat-footed, with much of our fleet (or what was left of it) left over from WWI. In a matter of months, all of the factories converted over to war production, and we rapidly caught and passed the Japanese. I remember running machines that still had brass plaques saying something like, 'Property of The War Board'. If you send all of your manufacturing offshore, you lose that capability. Not only do we not have the equipment we once had, we don't have the experienced workers. I was always afraid we'd get into a conflict with China, and be screwed trying to build up a war effort. I never expected the enemy to be a virus!

I'm going to try to by more US goods, but it ain't easy. Are there any American-made small power tools? Phones and other electronics? Are there any vehicles that are 100% domestic? Heck, even our military gets some of their electronics from offshore sources. Many of us can no longer afford domestic-made goods.

We were all too happy to send those menial manufacturing jobs offshore. Let someone else do it. Let someone else pollute their air and water. We're better than that. As the old saying goes- The roosters have come home to roost.

 

[Jinks]

Everyone knows the problem, no body knows the solution. I think I'll just sit here on the sideline & watch the cluster......

 

[CraigStu]

In many cases it is impossible to find a USA made version of a given product. I buy USA as much as possible but I have bought stuff at HF too.

 

[bherren]

My *opinion* is that CEO's are not embarrassed/shamed enough yet to bring manufacturing home and politicians are more than happy to let us common folk argue/point fingers about who is to blame all the while giving them an excuse to let things continue as they are. i.e. do nothing (that is as political as I will get - I promise
That makes me feel that our only options are to vote with our dollars and start following organizations such as *Alliance for American Manufacturing*.
I do not preach the buy USA mantra because if I did it would be easy for someone to point me out as a hypocrite. However, I do look for opportunities to support USA manufacturing when possible. (btw, I have had 30 good years so far in manufacturing) The problem with this is country of origin labeling is making it extremely difficult for consumers to even have a question about where something is manufactured. To me this is the place to start - if we could unite and rally for true country of origin labeling I believe it will get us in the right direction. For example do you think the average joe/jane would purchase hamburger meat if it said "processed in China USDA inspected"? I am betting no. Also, I take nutritional supplements. Years ago I researched a brand and starting exclusively taking that particular brand. Little did I know this company sold out to China and manufacturing was moved to china as well. The bottle/label change (if any) was not apparent to me. What about the drugs that come from china? What would a mother/father think if they knew the origin of every drug prescribed for their child? The truth is that the current shortages we are experiencing should be a wake up call for not just the USA but other countries that rely on China. My fear is that when the corona virus starts to fade then all the finger pointing starts with the politicians and CEO's and all of us argue whether or not it is the dems or republicans fault.....and ultimately nothing changes.

 

[Legion Prime]

I generally don't shop at HF because I don't like being harangued for a phone number and email address and rewards club membership EVERY SINGLE GODAMNED TIME I try to buy some cheap *** $3 POS. If you want manufacturing to move back from offshore stop taxing it. That's not politics, just simple grade school level economics. If you're not willing to accept that a company's only duty is to generate profits for the owner then you're going to continue to have a marked flooded with cheap imported garbage at a fifth the price of US goods.

 

[nadogail]

Yes this is a conundrum, IMHO we no longer have the Industrial Base that built more Kaiser Coffins than the Germans and Japanese could sink. We built more planes than we lost, we built more than anyone else.

Without that Industrial Base, we could not IMHO win that war again.

The mindset of the US population was very different then. IMHO, The nation that had survived the depression and was shocked into action by the attack on Pearl Harbor no longer exists, we are now different. I am not sure if we are better or worse as a people but, we are different.

I am old enough to remember "Colored" restrooms and drinking fountains and White Lines in the back of buses. Times have changed, people have changed.

As Dorothy said "We aren't in Kansas anymore"

 

[yeldogt]

Repeat. My dad started going to Japan after WWII. Textiles. USA provided money to rebuild and access to US market. By the early 60's -- the Japanese competition was closing our mills. They dumped -- they also made good products by that time. They had new factories. In the name of world peace no real quotas or tariffs were imposed.

Take Korea and Taiwan ... toss Germany into the mix. It's all the same ...Initially the job losses are small .. and don't effect the policy makers.

Before you know it all kinds of industries are going and gone .... the ones that survive need a solution. Go under or maybe move to Mexico -- that will cut the labor costs and since there is no tariff or quota .. why not. More loss

Before you know it we lose the ability to develop and innovate -- there is massive cross manufacturing in growing societies. Wait -- how do we make hospital grade masks ..we need what?

Also -- as we allowed retailers to grow and dominate. They have real power ... I can get a light bulb from "GE" for X (made in China) ..... you better match Sylvania (made in MA). I can get a baby car seat for "X" made in China .... match Reading PA or we buy from someone else.

I always say to people ----do you want make $10 an hour at Applebees and buy $5 T-shirts. Or make $25 dollars and buy $12 t-shirts

 

[finn]

I dislike HF, not because they sell imported products, but rather because a large percentage of their products are **** quality wise, and much of the rest are mediocre at best. A small, but important percentage are good.

I have no problem buying offshore products. My iPhone and tablet are Chinese, as is my television and all of my Milwaukee tools.

Much of our seafood is packed in China or Vietnam. Half of the oil we use is still imported, too, as is my lift, and most of my shop tools, even though they may have “American “ names like OTC. I haven’t seen an American jack for years.

I don’t think it’s realistic to turn back the clock to the 1950s.

 

[firebirdparts]

As you get older, you may also get wealthier. There may come a time that you can afford the best stuff. That might not be made in the USA either.

 

[4 FN 27]

3 Places I will not shop at: Harbor Freight, Walmart and ****'s Sporting Goods (Turncoats). No exception personally.

For the business I will by US General Tool Boxes for the Shop. Why because they are cheap targets for the Forklifts...

I won't blame HF or Walmart...but American Consumer...well the quest to buy the cheapest price point and sacrifice quality is engrained into almost everyone I know.

Me I invest. I can afford to (now) and I cannot say if I couldn't afford to if I would only buy American where possible. I have not been there so I cannot be honest and say one way or another.

In my younger days when money was real tight I would rather go without until I could afford what I really wanted. It didn't have to be the best but I wanted it to last and have value later on if I chose to sell it (my Craftsman vs Snappy/Mac/Matco choice).

Example: I have only bought Featherlite Trailers. They can be double the market price for comparable models. But they hold their value and they are over the top on quality. The last one I sold used I paid $15521.00 in 2004. I sold it last year off Craigslist for $15000.00. I could have bought a Haulmark for $8000. At 15 year old the Haulmark would be worth $2500-3000.

The real conundrum is, lets just say people started to buy American Made or they cut back the ability to buy from China or anywhere else...Who is gong to build it? Our schools certainly are not promoting "General Labor"...and I won't get into regulation because it would get me banned from this board.

We quit bidding against China. It is a no win and a waste of our time and resources. Our Tax Base, Regulations and Compliance put us at a disadvantage even before you get into Labor Rates...I don't want to pay my Crew less...I want to pay them more but we are limited by the Customer and the Consumer of what we can charge which directly effects what we can pay.

To each their own...I'll live by my principles and everyone else can live by theirs...but we all have to realize we can have it both ways.

 

[gearhead1]

Years ago the stuff from Asia was junk. Big time junk. Asia stuff is much better now, but I still try to by as much US made as possible because I live here. It’s as simple as that. No offense to anyone else, their culture, or whatever. I just don’t live there. Then when I look at ‘friendly’ countries, China is not at the top of the list as I feel I am rewarding bad behavior. Do I shop at HF, yes. Do I have overseas products, yes. But I make an effort to get as much as possible from the US and ‘friendly’ countries first. Take socks for instance, when I went to the store, I looked at Hanes, Fruit of the loom, and a couple of other brands to see where they were made. The new metal baking sheet we bought was made in Ohio and we got it from Walmart. Walmart has some US made stuff. We looked at all of the baking sheets and bought the US ones, not the China ones.

I’ve always owned US (or North American) made vehicles. When I wanted a diesel car, I bought a VW (this was before US companies had diesel cars). I have no experience, data, or other anecdotal evidence that European or North American is using forced labor camps or selling kids toys with lead in the paint. But there’s one country that has. That’s because, IMHO, they don’t care. Yes things are more global, but you have to look out for yourself and your ‘friends’ first.

 

[gearhead1]

Here in Sweden there are a two chains like HF, ( but of course MUCH smaller)
It bothers me some, and I always buy metal cutting tools ( drillbits, taps, files, shears) at markets with old car parts and tools. There are many small shop owners selling of their NOS tools. Better taps, drillbits, files and pliers than were made in Sweden before the end of the 60´s can not be found.

What worries me a LOT more is the supply management religion that has totally crashed the government health system here.
Lack of basic commodities like wet wipes, toilet tissue, PPE resulting from years of a race to the bottom. 8 months ago all regions placed their orders with some new oufit run by criminals behind a "honest" facade. And any company that loses a big order starts lawsuits that postpone the process for many months.

What worries me most is the medicine and pharmaceutical supplies.
It is time to nationalize ALL medicine/pharma manufacturing and be self reliant.
A small country like Sweden comes way down on any procurement list from a large Chinese or Indian supplier.

The free movement of capital has screwed us up.
The US president is on the right track.


Ola

I say the friendly counties work together and leave the others out for themselves.

Volvo Trucks bought Mack. They are very intertwined now. No issues. There are many Volvo trucks on the road here.

Novo Nordisk has a plant near me making insulin but is a Danish company. There are a lot of Danish and Swedish working there along with Americans. No problem.

I think being self reliant is good and friendly countries should work together. Don’t trade with those doing unscrupulous practices. They need to learn the hard way.

 

[oldmachinenut]

I always thought that the dependence on offshore manufacturing was a bad idea. One of the main reasons we can't get the supplies needed to fight the virus is because so much of this stuff is now made in... China. I have yet to hear anyone mention that on the news.

I'm like a broken record with this, but- consider WWII. When the Japanese attacked us, they had vast superiority in the Pacific. We were caught flat-footed, with much of our fleet (or what was left of it) left over from WWI. In a matter of months, all of the factories converted over to war production, and we rapidly caught and passed the Japanese. I remember running machines that still had brass plaques saying something like, 'Property of The War Board'. If you send all of your manufacturing offshore, you lose that capability. Not only do we not have the equipment we once had, we don't have the experienced workers. I was always afraid we'd get into a conflict with China, and be screwed trying to build up a war effort. I never expected the enemy to be a virus!

I'm going to try to by more US goods, but it ain't easy. Are there any American-made small power tools? Phones and other electronics? Are there any vehicles that are 100% domestic? Heck, even our military gets some of their electronics from offshore sources. Many of us can no longer afford domestic-made goods.

We were all too happy to send those menial manufacturing jobs offshore. Let someone else do it. Let someone else pollute their air and water. We're better than that. As the old saying goes- The roosters have come home to roost.

Like this tag on my 1941 South Bend

 

[oldmachinenut]

Like this tag on my 1941 South Bend

Sorry, pics did not attach on first message

 

[ddawg16]

3 Places I will not shop at: Harbor Freight, Walmart and ****'s Sporting Goods (Turncoats). No exception personally.

For the business I will by US General Tool Boxes for the Shop. Why because they are cheap targets for the Forklifts...

I won't blame HF or Walmart...but American Consumer...well the quest to buy the cheapest price point and sacrifice quality is engrained into almost everyone I know.

Me I invest. I can afford to (now) and I cannot say if I couldn't afford to if I would only buy American where possible. I have not been there so I cannot be honest and say one way or another.

In my younger days when money was real tight I would rather go without until I could afford what I really wanted. It didn't have to be the best but I wanted it to last and have value later on if I chose to sell it (my Craftsman vs Snappy/Mac/Matco choice).

Example: I have only bought Featherlite Trailers. They can be double the market price for comparable models. But they hold their value and they are over the top on quality. The last one I sold used I paid $15521.00 in 2004. I sold it last year off Craigslist for $15000.00. I could have bought a Haulmark for $8000. At 15 year old the Haulmark would be worth $2500-3000.

The real conundrum is, lets just say people started to buy American Made or they cut back the ability to buy from China or anywhere else...Who is gong to build it? Our schools certainly are not promoting "General Labor"...and I won't get into regulation because it would get me banned from this board.

We quit bidding against China. It is a no win and a waste of our time and resources. Our Tax Base, Regulations and Compliance put us at a disadvantage even before you get into Labor Rates...I don't want to pay my Crew less...I want to pay them more but we are limited by the Customer and the Consumer of what we can charge which directly effects what we can pay.

To each their own...I'll live by my principles and everyone else can live by theirs...but we all have to realize we can have it both ways.

Sir........

I don't agree on all your points....but I have HUGE respect for you standing by your position. As some would call it....ethics/morals.

I don't care who you 'v0te' for....but I totally respect your choice.

Would love to sit down sometime and have some beers with you and discuss the 'world'.

 

[kald]

Here in Sweden there are a two chains like HF, ( but of course MUCH smaller)
It bothers me some, and I always buy metal cutting tools ( drillbits, taps, files, shears) at markets with old car parts and tools. There are many small shop owners selling of their NOS tools. Better taps, drillbits, files and pliers than were made in Sweden before the end of the 60´s can not be found.

What worries me a LOT more is the supply management religion that has totally crashed the government health system here.
Lack of basic commodities like wet wipes, toilet tissue, PPE resulting from years of a race to the bottom. 8 months ago all regions placed their orders with some new oufit run by criminals behind a "honest" facade. And any company that loses a big order starts lawsuits that postpone the process for many months.

What worries me most is the medicine and pharmaceutical supplies.
It is time to nationalize ALL medicine/pharma manufacturing and be self reliant.
A small country like Sweden comes way down on any procurement list from a large Chinese or Indian supplier.

The free movement of capital has screwed us up.
The US president is .

 

[kald]

I deleted my post. Don't to debate politics on a garage site.

 

[4 FN 27]

Sir........

I don't agree on all your points....but I have HUGE respect for you standing by your position. As some would call it....ethics/morals.

I don't care who you 'v0te' for....but I totally respect your choice.

Would love to sit down sometime and have some beers with you and discuss the 'world'.

Thank you. As Tony Montana said in the movie Scarface "I only have my word and my balls and I don't break them for nobody".

Without Morals and Ethics we have no definition as a human being.

I have the Beers ready for that discussion of the "World"...it could take a while...