A question for the woodworkers - table saw fences

[BreeStephany]

So I realize that this forum is primarily for topics surrounding wrenching, however, I know a lot of members on here also do some woodworking, so I figured I would throw a question out there and get some peoples opinions.

I am in the process of restoring a Whitney 177 16" 7.5hp tablesaw for a friend for their cabinet shop. They picked it up without a fence, rails, guard, splitter or motor controls.

The saw overall is in great shape and extremely accurate given its age.

They pretty much let me have the reins on its restoration. Though I've done my fair share of woodworking, I have never really looked into aftermarket parts for my table saw, as the stock fence does pretty well for my work.

My friend is using it for their cabinet shop, so they would like to extend the outfeed table 32" and would like to extend the table width 42.5", making the table size 72" deep by 96" wide.

They stated that they were thinking of adding a Biesemeyer fence unless I could find something better, and also wanted a blade guard with a vacuum attachment.

So here are my questions for everyone.

1.) is a biesemeyer fence the best option out there or are there better aftermarket options available.

2.) what is the best overarm dust extraction / blade guard?

3.) should I fabricate the outfeed table & table extension or are there good options available out there that would meet my needs. I was thinking of doing a steel framed table extension with a melamine top and then doing a roller outfeed extension. The reason I was thinking of fabricating is because I have yet to find extensions that are the same size as the 53.5" wide x 40" deep table top.

4.) They wanted to add a power feed to the saw. I was thinking of using a Powermatic 1hp power feed, as Powermatic has always had a great reputation for excellent products.

5.) Motor controls - the saw came with no motor controls and is all 3ph. I was thinking of adding a VFD for the saw motor so I could easily implement a start / stop station and then could program a soft start function if necessary. I was also thinking of adding a VFD to the power feed so I could add a start / stop station for it, along with a rheostat to control the feed speed.

The shop the saw is going into has a 3ph 480/277 service and then steps down to 3ph 208/120, so they would prefer to hook up the saw to 480V power. My thought was to enclose the VFDs in a nema 3R enclosure, having the VFDs fuse protected and then putting in a small transformer to step down the voltage from 480V to 208V to control the power feed motor. I was thinking of adding a normally open 3 pole contactor with an emergency stop button that would break the contact to the contactor when pressed to kill all incoming voltage.

Am I overthinking the controls or does this seem like the best option?

Due to the age of the saw, I realize that its probably going to take a bit of fabrication to get any aftermarket parts to work with the saw, but I feel that I am capable of modifying the saw itself and the aftermarket products to get everything to work.

 

[retrobuilder]

Over thinking controls?- depends on what the customer wants but for a 16" blade saw, you can probably locate all that from Powermatic? Fence, feed system with dust control.

The saw with a blade that big likely will need 240 3 ph at minimum, What does the blade drive motor call for?

The paddle kill switch is a good idea within easy reach of feed side.

 

[Texican]

I like the Incra fence system, Powermatic feeders are nice but expensive, check out grizzly.com. A lot of shop items have the same OEM but are branded differently. Over the blade dust collectors are great, there are plans out there for DIY for ultimate customization.

 

[A_Pmech]

1) I think the Biesemeyer fence is a very good "general duty" fence for everyday work and light to moderate power feed work. I have used mine for both with good success.

The only downside to them is, like all "T-square" style fences, they slip under heavy loads. The original fence on the saw would be better for heavy and continuous power feed work.

2) Don't know.

3) I fabricated mine from 2x2x1/4 angle with a 3/4" cabinet plywood top covered in white melamine. It works VERY well. Be sure to provide a way to adjust the height of the outfeed table relative to the saw table.

4) Powermatic feeders are made by Steff in Italy IIRC. I have an 8-speed 3-wheel Steff and I think it's an excellent product. 8 speeds are plenty when you have 7.5 HP on tap.

5) No need for a VFD. I'd use an appropriately sized motor starter and 3-wire start stop control. If I was going to get fancy I'd install a stop bar on the front of the machine that an operator can push up against or kick with his toe so that he can turn the machine off hands-free. I don't see the need to kill the incoming power for that. Just wire it in series in the 3-wire control circuit.

 

[BreeStephany]

Over thinking controls?- depends on what the customer wants but for a 16" blade saw, you can probably locate all that from Powermatic? Fence, feed system with dust control.

The saw with a blade that big likely will need 240 3 ph at minimum, What does the blade drive motor call for?

The paddle kill switch is a good idea within easy reach of feed side.

The motor is 208/480V and they have a 480/277V 3PH service with transformer to step down to 208/120V 3PH, so we were thinking of supplying it with 480V, as that is the voltage of the busduct in their shop, otherwise they would have to run conduit and wire, a box and a drop cord for the supply, rather than just popping on a can and doing a drop cord to the saw.

 

[zkling]

That is a heck of a saw.

That saw IIRC was designed to rip semi wide, thick hardwood boards. The original fence was mounted in the center of the table similar to some of the old Oliver machines. Super sturdy and rigid.

Here is a manual for it

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/892/1148.pdf

1.) For general cabinet shop use, a Bessemer fence is really hard to beat. Now if they plan on heavy ripping with a power feeder it does have limitations as AP mech said. It will probably be pretty challenging to adapt a new fence without putting a few holes in the table somewhere. What did the PO do for a fence?

2.) The excalibur and shark guard are two popular blade guard / dust collection systems. Selection is usually based on how the right wing is setup for mounting the system or a router table.

3.) X2 what AP said
4.) x2 what AP said
5.) x2 what AP said

 

[BreeStephany]

1) I think the Biesemeyer fence is a very good "general duty" fence for everyday work and light to moderate power feed work. I have used mine for both with good success.

The only downside to them is, like all "T-square" style fences, they slip under heavy loads. The original fence on the saw would be better for heavy and continuous power feed work.

2) Don't know.

3) I fabricated mine from 2x2x1/4 angle with a 3/4" cabinet plywood top covered in white melamine. It works VERY well. Be sure to provide a way to adjust the height of the outfeed table relative to the saw table.

4) Powermatic feeders are made by Steff in Italy IIRC. I have an 8-speed 3-wheel Steff and I think it's an excellent product. 8 speeds are plenty when you have 7.5 HP on tap.

5) No need for a VFD. I'd use an appropriately sized motor starter and 3-wire start stop control. If I was going to get fancy I'd install a stop bar on the front of the machine that an operator can push up against or kick with his toe so that he can turn the machine off hands-free. I don't see the need to kill the incoming power for that. Just wire it in series in the 3-wire control circuit.

Thanks for the input. I was thinking of just using prelamed particle melamine, but the cabinet grade plywood would probably hold up much better long term. I did plan on having a fine threaded means of height adjustment for the table and the saw itself, as almost every floor you encounter in almost any shop is never perfectly level.

I completely failed to remember that the powerfeeds have multiple speeds... sometimes I just need to remember the K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid) method when I'm in the design phase on projects. I like the idea of a stop bar versus just a mushroom head stop button.

The motor starter and controls would be pretty easy to do as well, and thinking about it now, will probably be the direction I take unless the owner says otherwise.

I was shocked about how reasonably priced VFDs have become, and quite honestly, are almost on par with the price of a nice set of Allen Bradley controls for the saw, which is primarily the reason I considered a VFD as a viable option for the saw.

 

[rlitman]

1) I think the Biesemeyer fence is a very good "general duty" fence for everyday work and light to moderate power feed work. I have used mine for both with good success.

The only downside to them is, like all "T-square" style fences, they slip under heavy loads. The original fence on the saw would be better for heavy and continuous power feed work.

I've never seen a Biesemeyer fence slip under load. Any one that did must either have been maladjusted, or the contact surfaces were coated in something that allowed it to slip. In any case, no side load should ever be sufficient to cause it to slip. That just wouldn't be proper or safe use of a tablesaw.

The Vega fence is considered to be as good as the Biesemeyer, and it has a micro-adjust ability if you need that.

The Excaliber fence is the smoothest moving you will ever see. I'd treat the rollers carefully though.

The Biesemeyer is the easiest to chip dried glue drippings off of with a chisel without causing any damage. There is a reason it has a great reputation. It is simple, well made, and strong.

 

[BreeStephany]

That is a heck of a saw.

That saw IIRC was designed to rip semi wide, thick hardwood boards. The original fence was mounted in the center of the table similar to some of the old Oliver machines. Super sturdy and rigid.

Here is a manual for it

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/892/1148.pdf

1.) For general cabinet shop use, a Bessemer fence is really hard to beat. Now if they plan on heavy ripping with a power feeder it does have limitations as AP mech said. It will probably be pretty challenging to adapt a new fence without putting a few holes in the table somewhere. What did the PO do for a fence?

2.) The excalibur and shark guard are two popular blade guard / dust collection systems. Selection is usually based on how the right wing is setup for mounting the system or a router table.

3.) X2 what AP said
4.) x2 what AP said
5.) x2 what AP said

Thanks for the info on the fence & blade guard.

I have no idea what the previous owner did for a fence, as my friend picked it up at an auction for cheap and it was pretty much bare bones when they got it. It did appear to have a rail based fence attached at one time, as there were tapped mounting holes on the front and back of the table

Someone stripped off the motor controls and I guess anything they felt was of value that was not specific to the saw. When we got it the motor was fried, however, I have a pretty good relationship with a local rewinding shop and got it rewound for just the cost of materials.

 

[mjozefow]

It should be noted that the Biesemeyer fences are primarily designed for sheet goods but work well for general shop duties. The older micrometer adjust fences are preferred by many for ripping solid wood stock as there is less bearing length (therefore less need for a perfectly straight board) and a positive adjustment mechanism.

Post up some pics when you get done. I'd like to see them. I will be wanting a real table saw soon but need to buy a Unisaw or Sawstop first.


I agree with A_P on the rest. I hate it when he beats me to questions...

 

[A_Pmech]

I've never seen a Biesemeyer fence slip under load. Any one that did must either have been maladjusted, or the contact surfaces were coated in something that allowed it to slip. In any case, no side load should ever be sufficient to cause it to slip. That just wouldn't be proper or safe use of a tablesaw.

The Biesemeyer fence will slip when used in conjunction with a stock feeder for ripping duties. The feeder must impart a side load on the fence (by skewing the feed wheel axis) to keep the stock parallel to it.

For general shop duties they're fine and my preferred fence.

 

[BreeStephany]

Post up some pics when you get done. I'd like to see them. I will be wanting a real table saw soon but need to buy a Unisaw or Sawstop first.

I most definitely will when I get everything back together. Everything is in pieces and getting blasted and then I'll start painting. Haven't really decided on a color as of yet, but I am thinking either industrial green, very similar to the old powermatic green or industrial grey.

I'm thinking of painting with an industrial high gloss enamel based paint.

Thoughts on paint?

 

[mjozefow]

I would paint the saw the original color or close.

It seems most machine tools were gray and most woodworking machines were some shade of green with some gray thrown in from a few MFG's.

I'll let A_P chime in on the paint type. He's done a lot more machine painting than me. I would imagine since there are no harsh chemicals being thrown on the paint, a good quality solvent based industrial gloss paint would be fine.

 

[A_Pmech]

I like NAPA Cross Fire 55A mixed to color 51060 Med. Gray on top of Acme FP-301 etching primer,

Sherwin Williams Polane B on top of their etching primer would be a good choice too.

Beware, both of these paints require a supplied air system and you should probably wear a bunny suit as well. Neither of the two above choices are fun to spray. They don't atomize well even when thinned.

Stepping down somewhat, an Alkyd Enamel would also work well but not be as durable as the two choices above. One benefit to this choice is you could brush it on. If you're good with a brush nobody will ever know once the paint pulls.

 

[woody 73]

Sounds like you are getting very good advice from the above members. Your saw is a beast and built like a BSH (Brick **** House); long after your body has turned to dust that monster will still be on the job.

The next Generation will enjoy your saw good job!

 

[Plump]

Pictures!!!