a rant for the HVAC guys

[volaredon]

WHy is it there are so many "Wholesale Only" places in the HVAC world as opposed to say auto parts places?
I have 3 suppliers within 6 miles; because I am not an "HVAC guy" they wont sell me anything.
I have been an auto mechanic for the better part of 25 years. there isn't a single shop that I worked at, that had the privilege of "wholesale only"
Car Quest, NAPA, Bumper to bumper, Federated.... every single one, Joe Blow off th street can walk in and buy any part he could possibly need for his minivan/ including heater cores, AC compressors blower motor resistors, belts hoses and other automotive HVAC components.

but, when I went to one of the local HVAC warehouses for a hot water heater several years ago; they would not sell to me (I wound up at lowes to buy my water heater)
and yes I sweatted and soldered that heater in myself....
When I needed a new furnace 14 years ago, NOBODY would sell to me, I HAD TO "HAVE" someone install it for me...
Now that it's getting cold out and the wife's complaining about turning the furnace on, I changed the filters, vacuumed and blew out the innards, (like always) and went to turn on the heat. nothing happened (except for complaints from the wife about being cold) and she won't go for "put a sweatshirt on" like I do...
My FLUKE multimeter works just like the HVAC guy's does, wiring diagrams are very similar to what I am familiar with dealing with cars, I did all the pinouts and jumpers that a pro would have done, and determined the circuit board was dead.
I took all the pertinent info to work this morning (furnace model/serial, and all the numbers off the bum board, plus a few phone numbers)
the 1st 2 places I called... "First what COMPANY are you with"? "Oh youre not? Sorry I cannot sell to you" and the 2nd place is one that my brother told me years ago that it was "go-to place" for anything I'd ever need HVAC wise, and he's not an "HVAC guy" either. He was working maintenance at a school district at the time, that was where the school got everything.... without issue.

I found several of them on Ebay last nite and Amazon too, ranging $30-80 used and $105-$330 for new. Without debating why such a wide range fo the exact same part, I'll just say none of them asked fo License number or my Company's name... I could have bought from any of them. but none local.
the 1st place I called referred me to another place that sells to the public; this place said theyd call me back, they didn't/ 3 hours later I called THEM back and yeah they could get it from their warehouse in 30-45 mins (by then Id be home) but their price? $261!! fo the same aftermarket board Ebay had starting at $105; I can understand being in business to make a profit, but cmon now.... I aint paying for the part PLUS a service call I never asked fo...
as it turned out I did find one via a mom n pop place right by my home; cash n carry $161.
but I had to pick it up at their warehouse (one of the 3 local that will not sell to me) on a will call, cuz their repair guy was too busy to go there for me today (which I understand-- I DO appreciate him calling and letting me do the will call) but by and large, to get HVAC parts you are basically forced to call a guy in the phone book and pay a service call plus his markup to get the simplest of parts.... and no, I don't know the guy that hooked me up, from the proverbial "Adam"

household electic parts, car parts, lawnmower parts, plumbing supplies I can get readily... why does the HVAC industry have to be so secretive and "exclusive"? I know how to work on the stuff, I know my limits (when TO bail and use the phone) and I had a hard time coming up with the "extra" money for the board alone this week... had I not gotten that 1 guy to do me a favo on the will call and been forced to call a guy out, that would have ben a $500 repair. if I have a hard time scraping up $160 how can I come up with $500 for the service call AND the part?
and yes I will be buying one via Ebay fo a spare for just in case, down the road.

1 more question... is there a decent place I can pick up some coil cleaner, without "being" an HVAC guy? my cousin who is an industrial electrician "borrowed" me some from his work several years ago....

 

[Highbeam]

The suppliers are more concerned about keeping the HVAC guys happy than about selling you a part.

 

[Zeke]

There are 15 Johnstone Supply houses in IL. The one near me has no problem selling to the public as long as you don't waltz in there with you ******* too tight. They do draw the line at selling the furnaces and air handlers to non HVAC folks. The other 2 companies are split, one sells parts to me and the other nothing.

OTOH, I can buy at the wholesale electric supply places (all of them) all day long.

 

[brihvac]

According to my main supply house; Safety issue with equipment installs, Manufacture will not accept any warranties that were not installed by an HVAC contractor (You have to fill out paperwork), and they said they have homeowners come in and buy electrical parts, hook them up wrong burning them out and then try to return them. At least that's why they told me they don't sell to the public. They will sell filters and dumb stuff, but no electrical, or gas equipment.

 

[Speed-Racer]

Lots of places online you can purchase from. Unless you have a local friend in the business.

https://www.amazon.com/?tag=atomicindus08-20

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...coil+cle,null,274&rh=n:1055398,k:coil+cleaner

 

[pop pop]

You're gonna show up once every 4 years for a $100 item and tic off there "regular" guys that can't **** you then. It's kinda like a "closed shop". If you ain't in the union, you can't work....not that it makes sense.

Not to hijack, but similar as I worked there once.

Lumber and builder supply companies (not Home Depot), if they sell to you at all, will charge you list price plus anything they can add on. Now you are standing there with cash or check and will haul it home with your own truck. Builder down the street will call up, buy the same wood at 60% you paid, have it delivered on the seller's truck, probably return 10% of it for credit, and has them carry it on their books for 90 days or maybe longer. Makes no sense.

 

[Bo_9]

Our local supply houses will sell me anything but gas valves. To get those I have to have my "HVAC guy" call and tell them he will be installing/inspecting it. I understand with them it is a liability issue in case someone blows their house up.

 

[fuelie74]

I am in the same boat. It really pisses me off because you wouldn't believe the hvac guys that want advice for working on their own car but when I started trying to get info on doing my own infloor heat I got nothing from them. All you hear is safety this and safety that.

All the wholesale plumbing/hvac require you be a licensed plumber to buy from them. I went to by a rebuild kit for my outdoor water hydrant and they wouldn't sell because I a licensed plumber. I told them that I knew that **** flowed down hill and thats when they got pissy.

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[TireTracks]

I can understand the " Joe Blow bought a part for XYZ here, went home and burned his house down, then wanted to sue us" side of the issue, but it seems like they are shooting themselves in the foot.

 

[srmofo]

WorldPac doesn't sell to the public. Most of their stuff is OEM or OEM quality without the manufacturer markup. Their prices are usually less than the Chinese **** from the local parts stores.
As far as HVAC stuff I've never really had an issue. I just use my tax ID number from my landscaping business and don't ask stupid questions to annoy the counter guy

 

[Thumper68]

Same here, I can buy anything but a new boiler from Dey appliance. I just don't understand that I can buy a new gas valve, new burners, pumps and flue dampers but I can't buy the whole damn thing.

I can go into the elec supply house and buy anything that they carry.

 

[volaredon]

There are 15 Johnstone Supply houses in IL. The one near me has no problem selling to the public as long as you don't waltz in there with you ******* too tight. They do draw the line at selling the furnaces and air handlers to non HVAC folks. The other 2 companies are split, one sells parts to me and the other nothing.

OTOH, I can buy at the wholesale electric supply places (all of them) all day long.

never heard of Johnstone need to check them out, th one my brother told me about was berkheimer

 

[volaredon]

I can understand the " Joe Blow bought a part for XYZ here, went home and burned his house down, then wanted to sue us" side of the issue, but it seems like they are shooting themselves in the foot.

yup the woman at the place that wanted $100 too much fo that control board said something about homeowners doing too much jury rigging...
well duh if they wont sell me the parts to do the job RIGHT, how else am I supposed to get things up n running????

 

[volaredon]

I am in the same boat. It really pisses me off because you wouldn't believe the hvac guys that want advice for working on their own car but when I started trying to get info on doing my own infloor heat I got nothing from them.

and when their work van wont go, yeah the one that they use to go on all them service calls, they sure as He11 want us to bend over backwards don't they???

 

[Mike007]

One reason, there are a lot of morons out there. I don't think the OP is one, but how does the counter guy at the supply house know if you are a *****?

A supply house I deal with sold a ***** some kind of chemical drain cleaner recently and the ***** managed to burn himself with it then proceeded to sue the supply house and win. So they now won't even sell a H.O. a copper fitting. You really can't blame them.

 

[LG63]

1 more question... is there a decent place I can pick up some coil cleaner, without "being" an HVAC guy? my cousin who is an industrial electrician "borrowed" me some from his work several years ago....

Zoro has coil cleaner and free ship if you can push the order over $50

 

[koditten]

You got shot down because you asked for a hot water heater. The counterperson knew right there and then that you weren't in the biz

KO

 

[anthony666]

in the biz we call a water heater a '******** from your sister while your mother holds the camera' .. so just go back and ask for that you'll be good

 

[koditten]

hahahah!!

KO

 

[KANSASBOY]

http://www.johnstonesupply.com/storefront/ Great place only thing cash only

 

[Rockhead261]

WHy is it there are so many "Wholesale Only" places in the HVAC world as opposed to say auto parts places?

I know a guy who diagnosed a bad contactor in his outdoor condensor. He bought a compatible replacement on Amazon, then went about wiring it. Smart enough guy, knows his way around engine bays, does most of his own home repairs. He called me when the condensor wouldn't run.

Turns out he connected the low voltage coil wires (Y and C) to the L1 and L2 tabs on the line side of the contactor. This sent 230 VAC to the indoor controls. The 3 amp control fuse popped, but not before the killing the board. The burn marks on the back of the thermostat indicated a small fire started and self-extinguished while he was outside scratching his head. The board was $500 from the manufacturer and the stat was another buck.

Oh, and the problem wasn't even the contactor - a compressor terminal was corroded and loose.

Now, imagine you're the owner of the supply house and imagine this guy is in front of you. Is it worth maybe $8 profit on a $25 part?

 

[OccupantRJ]

Some of the local HVAC supply houses in the area towns would not sell to an individual UNTIL the economy crashed, then suddenly, they would. Wonder why. There is one near my workplace that I buy from through work, and he told me they were down on business by 35%. Got so bad that they made a deal with the property owner to rent only half of the previous square footage in the building, and set up an "office" on the product display floor, making a cubicle of file cabinets. Grainger here traditionally would only sell through a business, next thing you know, there are radio ads to please buy from them. I guess groceries were getting low. The vinyl siding supply house was the same way. Suddenly I'm now a viable customer. I have an account, but use a VISA to pay immediately. I guess they needed groceries too.

 

[mygarageone]

I am glad they won't sell to the average guy , you don't know how many times I get a call after they bought this or that part , installed it and then want me to come and find out why the heating equipment still doesn't work ! I won't even bother with such people , once I show up and touch there equipment I am responsible for anything that happens after wards , being there done that. It's no fun defending your self from a law suit some idiot slaps on you because you tried to help them , Never again !
I carry a Master Plumbers Lic , a Unlimited Boiler Lic , I unlimited H.V.A.C System Lic, and have to constantly be updated with classes because technology is changing so fast.

The days of helping people out are gone , even if the home owner has no objections , the insurances companies are going to go after anyone they can if they think they have a case . Why do you think water heaters now have all kinds of warning on them ? Heck I know a Plumber who was sued for over a million because some lady let her faucet run wild ) Hot side and her baby was in the bath tub , the Lawyer went after the plumber , the water htr manufactor , the faucet manufactor . and that is why we are now paying the prices we do for parts and professionals service.

 

[mygarageone]

I know a guy who diagnosed a bad contactor in his outdoor condensor. He bought a compatible replacement on Amazon, then went about wiring it. Smart enough guy, knows his way around engine bays, does most of his own home repairs. He called me when the condensor wouldn't run.

Turns out he connected the low voltage coil wires (Y and C) to the L1 and L2 tabs on the line side of the contactor. This sent 230 VAC to the indoor controls. The 3 amp control fuse popped, but not before the killing the board. The burn marks on the back of the thermostat indicated a small fire started and self-extinguished while he was outside scratching his head. The board was $500 from the manufacturer and the stat was another buck.

Oh, and the problem wasn't even the contactor - a compressor terminal was corroded and loose.

Now, imagine you're the owner of the supply house and imagine this guy is in front of you. Is it worth maybe $8 profit on a $25 part?

Been there , done that , I won't work on anyone's equipment , when I know they have already tried to fix it.

 

[fuelie74]

I am glad they won't sell to the average guy , you don't know how many times I get a call after they bought this or that part , installed it and then want me to come and find out why the heating equipment still doesn't work ! I won't even bother with such people , once I show up and touch there equipment I am responsible for anything that happens after wards , being there done that. It's no fun defending your self from a law suit some idiot slaps on you because you tried to help them , Never again !
I carry a Master Plumbers Lic , a Unlimited Boiler Lic , I unlimited H.V.A.C System Lic, and have to constantly be updated with classes because technology is changing so fast.

The days of helping people out are gone , even if the home owner has no objections , the insurances companies are going to go after anyone they can if they think they have a case . Why do you think water heaters now have all kinds of warning on them ? Heck I know a Plumber who was sued for over a million because some lady let her faucet run wild ) Hot side and her baby was in the bath tub , the Lawyer went after the plumber , the water htr manufactor , the faucet manufactor . and that is why we are now paying the prices we do for parts and professionals service.

Welcome to our world in the auto repair business. Its no different. I regularly see vehicles that they diy tried to fix and messed it up worse. You should see what happens on a newer car when you diy decides ot start jumping 12 volts on circuits in there car that shouldn't have that. But I am not saying that every diy is bad.

I also am constantly in school staying up to date on cars so that argument doesn't work.

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[mygarageone]

Welcome to our world in the auto repair business. Its no different. I regularly see vehicles that they diy tried to fix and messed it up worse. You should see what happens on a newer car when you diy decides ot start jumping 12 volts on circuits in there car that shouldn't have that. But I am not saying that every diy is bad.

I also am constantly in school staying up to date on cars so that argument doesn't work.

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk 2

I won't touch anything newer than my 69 Mustang , I won't even tune up my old 97 dodge pick up. with points and plugs.

 

[JakeKohl]

Have you ever worked in retail? Can you just imagine all of the extra head ache in selling some of these technical items to the general public? You are an exception if you do know how to install an evaporator but I can assure you that 15% of the general population "thinks" they know how to install it but only 3% of them actually know. Those 12% are going to be coming back asking silly questions and asking for refunds. I understand why they are picky.

Around here, if you walk in and don't ask stupid questions, they'll sell to you but anything with refrigerant requires a license.

 

[Ohmthis]

Johnstone supply will not sell retail here anymore. I buy things from them and have seen many people come in and try. The reason that was given was that there were too many returned parts and they don't take returns on electrical items. It was a huge headache for them. I understand the op frustration, but what is not understood is how many people mis diagnose problems. You just don't throw parts at a system to fix it. There are skills that must be used to properly and efficiently fix a system. I'm not saying that the op doesn't have those skills, but most don't. I'll give you an example. HSI goes out in your furnace you take it to the supply house. What kind is it (there are different materials) what voltage is it. The counter person has to try and guess which one to sell. You take it home and install it. Yeah it works!!! A month later it's bad again, why? You take it to the supply house and want a new one, nope. I think people are confident they can fix thier car because of all the stores that market parts and how easy it is. Same with big box stores and doing home projects. Not everyone should be doing everything DIY.

 

[RKA]

never heard of Johnstone need to check them out, th one my brother told me about was berkheimer

Don't get your hopes up. My local one wouldn't sell to me.

I just buy the parts/tools off the internet. Much less BS that way and the shipping costs are negligible compared to the counter prices.

 

[volaredon]

well I did find my board, it's in and working fine.
I do see what youre saying, I did work parts counter for a while...
I spent as much time playin "shop teacher" as I did selling parts... but auto parts stores will still sell anything to anyone. some of the traditional parts stores just charge a bit more (but still less than retail "list") than they do to their "regulars". My son cuently drives fo a Federated auto parts store; I always hear where he had to deliver on any given day, but never once have I heard of them denying a sale because the wanna be parts buyer "sounds" like a *****..." You don't think jury rigging a car can't cause a major catastrophe if it comes apart? no matter how well intentioned the "repair"? Still no restrictions on who can buy what... like there is in the HVAC world

and they can then simply go to Walmart for their R143A Freon if theyre doing an HVAC repair...
I know about fixing other people's screw-ups in the auto repair world too

When I sold parts about 20 years ago.... had a guy come in with an 80-something (RWD, V8) Olds Delta 88 with a bad front wheel bearing issue and needed to be 50 miles away.. wanted to fix in the parking lot. Cmon were talking inner/outer wheel bearings, a seal and some grease. much cheaper than a hub assembly and the ability to be taken apart, cleaned inspected and regreased...
he bought the bearings for 1 wheel, didn't want the outer races and when I suggested a small tub of grease to pack the bearings, he INSISTED on buying a small bottle of brake fluid, thinking he'd just pour the brake fluid on the bearings instead.
Said he'd do it "the right way" once he got where he was goin 50 miles away....
Didn't even know that the outer races could be taken out of the rotor and replaced nor was he interested in doing so... I had to stay inside and man the counter and phones, but he jacked the car up and pulled the passenger front wheel off then the rotor, and put it back together/ he wasn't there long, and he drove off.... im wondering how close he made it to his destination? I doubt he made it the whole way!

 

[malibu101]

I often buy appliance repair/replacement parts for my job at work.
The local appliance repair supply house I normally buys from has good help and a great selection. The prices are very fair for anyone with an account, like my work or anyone else "in the trade" would have.

However, they will also glady sell to Harry Homeowner.
BUT if you don't have an account number they charge you list price.
Which is usually more than twice the price of what an account holder pays!
And there is a big sign "No returns on electrical parts"

On the other hand, an electrical supply house I deal with for work also sells to anyone no matter what and the price break for having an account is only like 5%.

 

[LG63]

I just buy the parts/tools off the internet. Much less BS that way and the shipping costs are negligible compared to the counter prices.

I had to replace a capacitor last spring and found an Ebay seller that was very easy to work with. I went ahead and bought spare capacitors and a condensor fan motor. Now that I have them on the shelf, they will probably never fail but I look at it as a $150 insurance policy that MIGHT save me hundreds down the road.

 

[WVBrady]

Many years ago, before the age of isocyanates, the auto paint that I would buy would say for professional use only. People told me that before that, they wouldn't sell to anyone other than someone with a business license.

 

[volaredon]

I had to replace a capacitor last spring and found an Ebay seller that was very easy to work with. I went ahead and bought spare capacitors and a condensor fan motor. Now that I have them on the shelf, they will probably never fail but I look at it as a $150 insurance policy that MIGHT save me hundreds down the road.

yup that's where the next board for this furnace will come from; I got caught off guard this time, furnace worked fine last season right up n til I switched it from producing heat to producing A/C so I THOUGHT it would work fine when I switched back.... I had to get something *now* without the luxury of being able to wait til I could get one shipped from ebay next week sometime, the wife's whining already and wont listen to me when I say to add a layer fo a few days... and they are calling for frost outside before this weekend is done.

 

[volaredon]

ya know I have never had the *urge* but I probably know a few guys that I could go buy some "funny cigarettes" from, easier than I could find a place to sell me a control board for my furnace... that's just sad and things certainly should not be that way.

 

[ShaneMSnyder]

The igniter on my furnace cracked 2 years ago. I was flipping out because nobody, not one of the MANY hvac suppliers would not retail me the igniter. The hvac company I called wanted 200 bucks to replace a 15 dollar part, wasn't gonna happen! Sourced one at Grainger online so I went to my local Grainger and begged the dude to sell it to me without an account but my lucky day, the counter dude said, "we just started retail last week."

 

[Ohmthis]

yup that's where the next board for this furnace will come from; I got caught off guard this time, furnace worked fine last season right up n til I switched it from producing heat to producing A/C so I THOUGHT it would work fine when I switched back.... I had to get something *now* without the luxury of being able to wait til I could get one shipped from ebay next week sometime, the wife's whining already and wont listen to me when I say to add a layer fo a few days... and they are calling for frost outside before this weekend is done.

Wouldn't you like to know WHY the board went bad in the first place? I know electronics and electrical parts have a finite life span, but if you replaced a board and it dies in a couple years there is more to it than that, same for a capacitor. I'm not defending the supply house just tech that will use his/her skills to diagnose the problem and make a good repair not just a part swapper. Same goes for automotive repair too. Why keep changing coil on plug packs when there is a bigger problem?

 

[volaredon]

Wouldn't you like to know WHY the board went bad in the first place? I know electronics and electrical parts have a finite life span, but if you replaced a board and it dies in a couple years there is more to it than that, same for a capacitor. I'm not defending the supply house just tech that will use his/her skills to diagnose the problem and make a good repair not just a part swapper. Same goes for automotive repair too. Why keep changing coil on plug packs when there is a bigger problem?

I have it narrowed down to a relay on the board that died. I could tap on it and my readings would momentarily come back to what they were supposed to be; this was the original board on the furnace that it was built with, I have had the furnace since 1999... so at this point I am gonna chalk it up to "old age" now if the relays had blades on them and could be changed individually as they can on cars, I would not have had to change the whole board; but everything is permanently soldered into place on the board, meaning the whole board needs replaced if any component goes bad.

now hot surface ignitors on this furnace, that's a different story/ I have been thru several over the years on this unit. I replaced the original one with an original style one twice, each averaging about 2 years before they bit the dust; I then put a "heavy duty" one on there... a nitride one that was supposed to last "forever", even if I were to throw it against a brick wall that one lasted about 2x as long as the original type ones, this last one I put in came with an additional control box that I had to wire in> besides just plugging it in> and so far this one has lasted longer than any other.... this one is also a nitride based ignitor.

 

[srmofo]

Wouldn't you like to know WHY the board went bad in the first place? I know electronics and electrical parts have a finite life span, but if you replaced a board and it dies in a couple years there is more to it than that, same for a capacitor. I'm not defending the supply house just tech that will use his/her skills to diagnose the problem and make a good repair not just a part swapper. Same goes for automotive repair too. Why keep changing coil on plug packs when there is a bigger problem?

I call BS. There is no reason to suspect another part causing a board failure until it fails again. No tech in is right mind would go chasing a ghost problem which may or may not even exist unless he has reason to suspect so.

That reason may vary from knowing common failures, to seeing melted wires.

I dont care what you say, you are not going to convince me that a community hellbent on protecting their own are going to do anything to prevent future repairs when they have supply houses refusing to sell parts to the public. The HVAC community (in general) has already demonstrated who they care about and let me tell you, its not the consumer.

 

[mygarageone]

I call BS. There is no reason to suspect another part causing a board failure until it fails again. No tech in is right mind would go chasing a ghost problem which may or may not even exist unless he has reason to suspect so.

That reason may vary from knowing common failures, to seeing melted wires.

I dont care what you say, you are not going to convince me that a community hellbent on protecting their own are going to do anything to prevent future repairs when they have supply houses refusing to sell parts to the public. The HVAC community (in general) has already demonstrated who they care about and let me tell you, its not the consumer.

You have no idea what your talking about , I have seen boards go out because of a poor ground and other issues , so unless you really understand the H.V.A.C systems , you are like most haven't a clue !