a rant for the HVAC guys

[volaredon]

You have no idea what your talking about , I have seen boards go out because of a poor ground and other issues , so unless you really understand the H.V.A.C systems , you are like most haven't a clue !

youre right too; but being this is the 1st time the board died in the 14 years I have had the furnace I am more inclined to go along with srmofo... unless like he says, it goes bad again within what I would think an unreasonable time.
I have chased similar repeat sensor failures on cars like you are talking about. but on a "1st time fail" theres no reason at this point to go on a wild goose chase.

 

[srmofo]

Clip:

Its about protecting your own, which is fine I understand that.[/B] Just dont piss on my boots and tell me its raining.

 

[Falcon67]

I think the auto parts example answers the original question. Why would a supply house sell you a $500 board knowing that if you hose it up they can't make a warranty claim with the mfg. Same thing when I worked the counter - sell a $650 engine management computer to a pro shop, I could do an exchange or refund per the mfg. Sell it DIY - you're on your own. Big sign: ELECTRICAL - All Sales Final Even if you are competent, buying the equipment and installing it won't get you a warranty from the mfg. I've seen in auto parts from the DIY side of the counter too - last compressor I replaced carried a disclaimer in the box: DIY install OK but no warranty unless a filter, purge and charge is performed by a pro shop and a receipt presented for warranty issues.

 

[hurstscrambler]

Most places around here will sell to anyone, but many have signs up saying "we serve the trade first". I understand that doesn't seen right but with many items they sell there are codes and rules governing there installation. Many of these people want the sales men to tell them how to install the item. That's the blind leading the blind. As others have said, it's liability. If anyone in my area of Mass needs anything, let me know I will try to help, my company gets a good discount.

 

[Ohmthis]

srmofo, I'm sorry you feel this way, calling bs. Not all components die from age. The op never said how old his equipment was and I never said he wasn't qualified to work on his own stuff. I tried to answer his question and also ask a thought provoking one. I have seen boards go bad from things like a arcing switch to the furnace sharing a circuit with a pool pump. If I just threw another board on and left and then it takes a **** in short order does that do justice to my customers? On the price of doing a job, I have eaten a lot of labor because a person could not pay a whole bill. It's much easier to make a deal with them then to try and go the court route. We are not all trying to make a million on everyone we serve. If it weren't for our customers we would be out of business.

 

[mpire]

My 2 cents is that its nice to have a good relationship with professionals.

I have an AC guy that I pay to come out and "clean and inspect" my AC units every 6 months. He really doesn't do all that much, but I have him out for his expertise. That costs me about $100 a year. I put in 2 mini-split AC units and both times had him do the final hookup for a $75 service call. He basically did the vacuum, checked his gauge, and then released the included refrigerant and made sure it looked right on his single gauge. I even bought the adapter for the 410 mini-split so he could use his gauges. (From Amazon) Granted, that receipt for install means LG will honor the manufacturer warranty, so its well worth the expense.

That being said, I have just about everything spare for my AC unit. I have salvaged parts from up and down the street from all the broken AC units. I have 2 spare boards, and all the electronics to put together a whole separate system. Everyone else just buys a $7000 replacement system. Because I have all these spare parts, my system just keeps on humming. Isn't that always the way it is? Don't need it till you don't have it. However, my AC guy was very clear on part numbers for contactors and capacitors that I would need coming up. His price, $105. My internet price, $25. Same exact part number. He doesn't care where the parts come from if they do the job, and he keeps me happy. However, I have no problem in paying the $100 for him to drive his happy *** over to my house at 10pm to bring me that $25 capacitor when its 100 degrees outside and the woman is yelling.

In turn, I stand behind him and always recommend him, and magically he is the most popular guy at the AC shop with people who ask for him specifically by name and refuse any other techs. Taking care of your customer relationships is very important.

Granted, I do EVERYTHING myself, and I can call him up and ask him about AC stuff. His response will be that I can do it, or maybe I should have him look at it first. (I know that means $75 visit) He also explains everything in detail and doesn't treat me like I am a complete idiot.

Customer service is a great thing, and my AC was installed with the house in 2000, so I can't really complain.

 

[mygarageone]

srmofo, I'm sorry you feel this way, calling bs. Not all components die from age. The op never said how old his equipment was and I never said he wasn't qualified to work on his own stuff. I tried to answer his question and also ask a thought provoking one. I have seen boards go bad from things like a arcing switch to the furnace sharing a circuit with a pool pump. If I just threw another board on and left and then it takes a **** in short order does that do justice to my customers? On the price of doing a job, I have eaten a lot of labor because a person could not pay a whole bill. It's much easier to make a deal with them then to try and go the court route. We are not all trying to make a million on everyone we serve. If it weren't for our customers we would be out of business.

I too know we are in the business to not only make money but to help people . As far as srmofo goes , I read his profile and it seems he's an civil engineer , If that's true I can understand his attitude. Most engineers are like that , they know everything but every blue color tradesman knows nothing.

You see I also am a Lic engineer, In the Mechanical Field , yes the H.V.A.C , Process piping , Plumbing , Steam , Fire Protection , I worked in that field for 10 yrs and went back into the hands on , I felt I could be of greater service the the average person who wants and needs a quality service tech.

I can tell you horror stories about people who did there own heating repairs , one guy burnt his house almost down , another blew his furnace up , another blew his water heater out the roof.
All because they thought they new how to make a SIMPLE repair , Yes a so called simple repair. There are hundreds of those kinds of things happening out there but the avg joe never hears about it because it generally only makes the trade journals.
Do we want to protect our own YES , because they are the one's who will keep you from blowing up your home and possibly your self in the process.

 

[volaredon]

well if a guy "fixes" his car doesn't do it right, causes a pileup there is nothing stopping the same guy from buying car parts once again. so why is the HVAC industry so "special" in this sense? Me myself? Sure I'm more likely to rig something WHEN THE RIGHT PARTS AREN'T READILY AVAILABLE TO ME!
This last month was bad.... $250 to traffic court (bastards.... dont get me started/ I am still fuming over that one) $900 new wash machine, new tires on my wife's vehicle, I have a son in college, I spend ~$75 a week in gas just to go to work n back... money for a board for the furnace definitely wasnt there.... but when I get response after responce saying "we can't sell to you, just because you aren't one of 'us', but we'd be happy to come out and service it for you at added expense" If I had a hard time coming up with the cash for the board how in the He11 am I gonna come up with the money for a new board PLUS a service call to put it in, just because the HVAC trade has to be so "exclusive" concerning who they sell to???

Yet anyone can buy any car part they want at any time from multiple sources regardless of their ability or percieved ability to do the job right?

 

[mygarageone]

It's not our fault the Car parts companies are selling to anyone . They made that choice not us. Yes I think we should protect our industry , other wise we'll be in the same boat car repair shops are. But these days they seem to be doing very well. not sure of they are making any money but they are busy.

 

[srmofo]

I too know we are in the business to not only make money but to help people . As far as srmofo goes , I read his profile and it seems he's an civil engineer , If that's true I can understand his attitude. Most engineers are like that , they know everything but every blue color tradesman knows nothing.

blah blah blahss.

Thats good ****, But that still doesnt address the original issue. Why do HVAC companies refuse to sell to anyone not in the trades? Its not about protecting the customer at all, its about protecting the jobs of people in the trades.

Stupied **** Ive seen this week, THIS WEEK. my weeks run from thurs to wed.
1- guy replaced his tie rods then brought it in for a alignment, forgot the jamb nut on one and the castle nut on the other. He drove it in that way and drove it out when we werent looking. I still dont know how he didnt wreck. He brought it back for an alignment the next day with issue still present but it was at least safe.
2- Ive had 2 mazda 626s in this week from a fubared timing belt job. one a 4 cyl and the other a 6. The 6 cylinder also had a cross threaded idler pulley bolt and needed all the covers replaced because they were cracked and rubbed through.
3- 1 guy drove out with a completely busted brake line. It had absolutely no pedal. parking brake only.

Ive seen more fire damage under the plastic shields of cars than I ever thought I would, Ive seen more halfassed leaky brake repairs than I care to admit, and I would be a millionaire if I had a dollar for every tire I saw that had steel cords hanging out of them and were not replaced.

As I stated earlier, and apparently I need to emphasize a bit more. And this refers specifically to electrical repairs. Part of diagnosing a failed component is to check powers and grounds going to the unit (at least in my line of work). I dont care if you saw a bad ground cause an issue with another component. I see that almost weekly. If the wires powering up the board are good and the grounds are good, I am not going to go chasing down every single other wire unless I have a reason to suspect an issue (like it being a newer unit). Maybe its little different because cars have thousands of wires, connections, and parts all integrated into anywhere from 1 to 20 different control boards, and almost none of them are accessible without 20-30 minutes of tear down, when compared to a basic residential unit there is maybe 30 wires all easily accessible for testing with a nifty little factory supplied wiring diagram taped to the unit. Lets not even get started on the whole CAN-BUS ****. Wiring inside residential units is about as basic as you can get these days, sorry if you think otherwise.

Next thing you know ya'll will be trying to convince me the wiring inside a washer or drier is complicated also.

Sorry if I sound harsh about the whole thing, but something just bit my *** when someone earlier spouted off about it being to protect the customer. Every single other 'trade' from cars to autos to plumbing has the serious potential to kill and cause major damage if not done correctly yet none of them behave in the same manner as HVAC.

Im a master auto tech btw so I know plenty about blue collar work, the only difference is the units I service aren't kept in comfy little climate controlled areas. mine are subjected to vibrations, salt, daily abuse, general neglect, and service by unqualified hacks like quick lubes. Coincidentally enough Im about half way through my bachelors for industrial systems engineering so you were at least half right about something.

 

[koditten]

Duuude, that was an awsome write up. I pretty much agree. You said it great.

Later

KO

 

[Mike007]

Im a master auto tech btw so I know plenty about blue collar work, the only difference is the units I service aren't kept in comfy little climate controlled areas.

So you consider outside in the weather 24/7, in a 150* attic, in a 24" crawl space with a mud floor, up on a scorching hot roof or a dark humid basement "comfy little climate controlled areas."

 

[anthony666]

So you consider outside in the weather 24/7, in a 150* attic, in a 24" crawl space with a mud floor, up on a scorching hot roof or a dark humid basement "comfy little climate controlled areas."

don't forget spiders

 

[brewchief]

So you consider outside in the weather 24/7, in a 150* attic, in a 24" crawl space with a mud floor, up on a scorching hot roof or a dark humid basement "comfy little climate controlled areas."

Don't forget the overflowing kitty litter box directly in front of the furnace.

 

[mygarageone]

There was a time when the auto parts companies didn't sell whole sale , they protected there own. I also remember when they did start selling to anyone at wholesale , the mechanics where up in arms too. So when you say , we are wanting to protect our own , yes we are because we may soon see the same demise of our industry you all have. Don't get angry at us for wanting to protect our livelily hood. Because we'll end up doing what you all are doing . we'll be working for Labor only. Just so you all know , the commercial construction industry is already doing this . The big box stores and other nataional companies buy there own equipment and want us to put it in. The good thing for us is we don't have to warranty what they buy , so in effect when we do have to go back and repair There stuff , we get paid again.

I have been doing service repair in my area for yrs and not once have I had any of my clients , complain about my parts fee's or my service fee's. They see it as value , especially 2 am in the morning when it's -20 and they want heat or on the top of a 2 story building sitting right on lake superior , with the winding blowing at 30 mile s an hrs.
We many , many times are not inside some warm building working on a car . When I was going to school , I worked at a service garage , was it uncomfortable ? yes especially when you have a car up on the rack dripping ice cold water all over you. But having worked both types of jobs, I find the H.v.a.c market , much more challenging. The old adage , get a bigger hammer if it won't budge. that never works in the heating , a/c field.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

So you consider outside in the weather 24/7, in a 150* attic, in a 24" crawl space with a mud floor, up on a scorching hot roof or a dark humid basement "comfy little climate controlled areas."

 

[srmofo]

So you consider outside in the weather 24/7, in a 150* attic, in a 24" crawl space with a mud floor, up on a scorching hot roof or a dark humid basement "comfy little climate controlled areas."

I dont recall ever seeing a residential furnace in those locations. Must have been some real professional hacks to install a unit in such a ****** location I think you missed the point of that comment. The units themselves for the most part are in a controlled environment, hence things arent not sealed up tighter than a fishes ******** and you dont generally run into the massive corrosion issues found typically in auto repair. Im well aware you work in ****** spots which is why I stated "the units I service". Ive done enough work in attics, crawl spaces, and roofs to know how bad those spots ****.

I also think most of you missing the point of the whole conversation. Its not about the service men, its about the parts houses and specifically why cant he buy a simple electronic component without it being a hassle. No one is going to die if he miss diagnosed it. Put a sign on the counter "no returns of electrical parts" like every other appliance shop out there and be done with it. With the internet, I would think these brick and mortar stores wouldnt be turning any business down.

BTW we charge plenty of markup on parts as well as labor just like every other successful business model out there. You have to, if you want to stay in business.

With that said Im dont with this thread, as many of you have finally admitted the real reason for this practice instead of using ******** excuses like protecting the consumer from themselves.feel free to pm me if you would like to continue this conversation.

 

[mygarageone]

With the sue happy climate we have now days , I wonder why suppliers would sell to anyone not in the trades ?
It's gets harder and harder to even try to help people who have no money to pay for heating service. I used to make equipment work in a heating emergency just to get the home owner by for a day or two until they could get the right part ( We can't carry everything on the truck ) Two things have happened , first lawsuits made it very hard to want to help anyone and secondly , the newer furnaces are set up so you can' t do anything to limp it along. By the way , Plumbing supply house's are almost as hard to buy parts from but they do sell to anyone off the street most times.

 

[purevil115]

I dont know and dont care cause im a heating tech. I guess I choose the easy job working in climate controlled areas and with all the parts I could ever want and need. Its not like rooftop units ever see rain or snow and only break on nice 70 degree days.

 

[EOC_Jason]

Here's a tip for you...

When they ask what company you are with, just give them the name of a big one in your area. Tell them you will be paying CASH when you pick the stuff up. 99% of the time nobody questions anything further...

Or if you have any friends in the HVAC business and you know they have accounts with said places, ask if it's okay to use their name and again that you will be paying in cash when you pick the stuff up.

 

[mygarageone]

Here's a tip for you...

When they ask what company you are with, just give them the name of a big one in your area. Tell them you will be paying CASH when you pick the stuff up. 99% of the time nobody questions anything further...

Or if you have any friends in the HVAC business and you know they have accounts with said places, ask if it's okay to use their name and again that you will be paying in cash when you pick the stuff up.

Oh , Yea that's been tried before . a friend of mine tried that with out asking me and they turned him down . Then they called me as he was still there and ask if it was ok ? He wanted to buy a compressor for his pie case and then have me hook it up. He owns a restaurant , I said no and then ask him if it was ok for me to bring in my eggs and bacon and he could cook them up for me . He got the pic and that was the end of the issue.

 

[Rockhead261]

Don't forget the overflowing kitty litter box directly in front of the furnace.

I once found a mummified cat in the blower section of lowboy. After some consideration I decided to tell the homeowner of my findings. The husband said "Well, that solves the mystery."

I can't imagine how they would not have looked for the smell.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 4

 

[mygarageone]

I once found a mummified cat in the blower section of lowboy. After some consideration I decided to tell the homeowner of my findings. The husband said "Well, that solves the mystery."

I can't imagine how they would not have looked for the smell.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 4

Reminds me of a job my helper and I did. There was this welfare family that DSS pd for a new wall furnace.
As we were taking the furnace in the house a foul smell hit us , not so bad we had to leave but then it happened. We had to move the couch as that was the wall the heater was going on . Just as we had it moved out of the way , my helper went running out of the house and threw up . I went after him not knowing why he got so sick.
He said didn't you see those 2 dead kittens laying on the floor ? well he went on to say they were full of Maggots and the smell about knocked us both out.
Then as we go back into the house the home owner says just as casual as can be , we wondered where the 2 kittens went !

The stories we could tell , Maybe we should start a you'll never believe it story thread !

 

[mygarageone]

Just the other day , I serviced a Bryant furnace . Had to get into the sealed burner chamber.

There was a bad smell as I was pulling off that plate and then I saw them . 2 dead mice decomposing . The owner said that's not to uncommon as he had it last yr too.

 

[Mike007]

Here's a tip for you...

When they ask what company you are with, just give them the name of a big one in your area. Tell them you will be paying CASH when you pick the stuff up. 99% of the time nobody questions anything further...

Or if you have any friends in the HVAC business and you know they have accounts with said places, ask if it's okay to use their name and again that you will be paying in cash when you pick the stuff up.

I had someone try this with my business name at a Johnstone a few years ago while I was standing at the counter they handed me the phone and whoever it was hung up.

 

[Mike007]

With that said Im dont with this thread, as many of you have finally admitted the real reason for this practice instead of using ******** excuses like protecting the consumer from themselves.feel free to pm me if you would like to continue this conversation.

Did you read this?:

A supply house I deal with sold a ***** some kind of chemical drain cleaner recently and the ***** managed to burn himself with it then proceeded to sue the supply house and win. So they now won't even sell a H.O. a copper fitting. You really can't blame them.

This just happened with a local supply house. They literally changed over to "Wholesale only" because they sold a product to a H.O. and it cost them. It happens. If you doubt it, PM me and I will send you their name and phone #. You can call and ask them why they don't sell to homeowners.

 

[mygarageone]

I once found a mummified cat in the blower section of lowboy. After some consideration I decided to tell the homeowner of my findings. The husband said "Well, that solves the mystery."

I can't imagine how they would not have looked for the smell.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 4

One winter morning when I lived in MPLS , as I was warming up my truck it was colder then Hell out . I could smell something burning like hair . I went lifted up the truck hood and there was a dead cat laying on the intake manifold.
I think it got up there the nite a got home looking for some warmth and froze to death that nite.

 

[nanofrog]

...but everything is permanently soldered into place on the board, meaning the whole board needs replaced if any component goes bad.

Actually, it can be replaced if you have the right skills & tools.

If you could find an electronics repair tech, that would be another option. Unfortunately, the cost of the repair would likely cost as much or more than an entire replacement board due to the labor rate.

 

[er3456df]

You have no idea what your talking about , I have seen boards go out because of a poor ground and other issues , so unless you really understand the H.V.A.C systems , you are like most haven't a clue !

Bad grounds?

Yeah, sounds complicated. Better call an expert.

If this guy can read a wiring diagram, he's already better than most professional technicians. My advice- if your HVAC guy has to claim "experience" as an explanation and claim that you lack "understanding", it means he doesn't know how it works. He just knows what worked last time.

 

[anthony666]

this forum needs a 'like' button

 

[mygarageone]

Bad grounds?

Yeah, sounds complicated. Better call an expert.

If this guy can read a wiring diagram, he's already better than most professional technicians. My advice- if your HVAC guy has to claim "experience" as an explanation and claim that you lack "understanding", it means he doesn't know how it works. He just knows what worked last time.

And you know all this because ?

 

[er3456df]

And you know all this because ?

Experience. You wouldn't understand, because you're not in this line of work.

 

[OccupantRJ]

Now I gotta go clean my morning coffee off the Ipad screen!

 

[lilscorpion]

Bad grounds?
My advice- if your HVAC guy has to claim "experience" as an explanation and claim that you lack "understanding", it means he doesn't know how it works. He just knows what worked last time.

I wouldn't limit this statement to HVAC. It's true in many other industries/specialties. Very true.

 

[mygarageone]

Experience. You wouldn't understand, because you're not in this line of work.

Oh , I get it . Your an X-Pert . I'm sure You know what that means ?

 

[mygarageone]

Bad grounds?

Yeah, sounds complicated. Better call an expert.

If this guy can read a wiring diagram, he's already better than most professional technicians. My advice- if your HVAC guy has to claim "experience" as an explanation and claim that you lack "understanding", it means he doesn't know how it works. He just knows what worked last time.

Yea right until there is no wiring diagram ! 90% of the equipment I work on the manual is gone and the wiring diagram that's on the equipment is so small you can't even read it. All of us H.V.A.C guys have run into issues we can not trouble shoot , you call the factory tech division and they start with well try this or try that and some times when it's 2 am in the morning , you spend what ever it time it takes to figure out the problem, with no factory support
For years field servicemen have been the way the factory found out what issue there equipment was having , there wasn't enough testing before they started shipping product. Has anyone ever heard of Glow Core Equip or Hydrotherm Pulse Boilers ? They were the predecessors to most of the new hi eff boilers. We the field tech's became the testing field. But of course unless you have ever worked in H.V.A.C service , you have no clue about such things.
Many times people install equipment in ways the manufacture never intended or expected. Yet it will work and then when you tell the H.O why it's not working properly , he gets this dumb look and says it's been working find now for yrs, so it can't be the equipment , it must be you ? Or my neighbor said it's probably this or that , I'll call him to come fix it.
I recently went to service a high eff boiler the home owner had his carpenter install , what a joke . I told him I wouldn't work on it and to get his carpenter to service it , Nop he said carpenter said he didn't know anything about them and wouldn't work on it ! I left and he was made. Too Bad so sad.

 

[oilslick]

Great topic, I too have wondered why hvac parts aren't more easily accessed . I have a good friend in the hvac business and I help him once in a while get a furnace in and out of a tight crawl space. His job isn't all gravy but his markup is crazy good on those complete jobs. Service calls aren't where I see him killing it. Bottom line for me is that when I need a deal I call in favors and don't mind him calling me for auto or any sort of help.

 

[T-Mac]

Great thread!

 

[mygarageone]

Great topic, I too have wondered why hvac parts aren't more easily accessed . I have a good friend in the hvac business and I help him once in a while get a furnace in and out of a tight crawl space. His job isn't all gravy but his markup is crazy good on those complete jobs. Service calls aren't where I see him killing it. Bottom line for me is that when I need a deal I call in favors and don't mind him calling me for auto or any sort of help.

Agreed , we do make our profits on new equipment installs but think about this . if you spread the life time of the equipment out over 20 years , the customer is getting the better end of the deal. Service is a necessary part of our business and it basically pays the bills .
When you add up all the over head a business has to be there when the customer needs them , there are not all that much profit in any given new equipment install.
There's more profit to a party store on Pop , chips, etc , etc than you know about . a bottle of soda or pop costs the store owner around 20cents a can or maybe 30 cents a bottle. yet they charge what now days $1.80 per can or bottle. Now there's profits. Gas is pretty much a lost leader but once your in the store , they got you . By the way your H.V.A.C guy will most likely service your furnace every time you need him and many times if it's fairly new at no profit at all. As all the new equipment now carries a 10 yr full parts warranty and the service guys gets only his labor , The other thing , many of us will go out and spend $20,000 - $40,000 for a new vehicle and think nothing of it , but heaven forbid we spend $4000.00 + for a new furnace that will last for 20 years. Again it 's called perceived value .

 

[RustFarmer]

These guys in Downers Grove, IL will sell to you, and they are helpful as well. Why give your money to jerks?

http://www.econotempinc.com/

Steve (the owner) is great!