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A really quick T5 garage light question if you please....

Va boy

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Fellow Garage Journal Brethern,

After running electrical and hanging Sheetrock, my garage will be done. It is a stick built 28'X30' with 12' ceilings. I had my mind set on the T5 fixtures, 48"/4 bulb fixtures, I have all but wrote the check out for them. However, as of late, I have come across more than one thread on here that states T5 fixtures in a garage with 12' ceilings is not the most wise choice. I'm reading that more like a 14' minimum is needed. Is this accurate? Like I said, I just stumbled across this contraindication for the T5's, is this a valid argument, do I need to look at T8 fixtures? As for what I'll be doing in my garage, that will consist mostly of wrenching on my muscle cars, rebuilding carbs, engines, etc. So the whole reason I was willing to invest in T5's was for the incredible light output needed for such tasks.
Thanks for reading and I look forward to the boards responses, I'm ready to buy some lights!

Jason
 
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madosta

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T5 or T5HO?

T8s are great IMHO, but like anything they will be the "old school" and the T5s will be the new standard.

T5s are efficient and pricier, but if they are T5HOs, you *might* have an issue with a flood of light and hot spots at 12'.
 

Charles (in GA)

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There are two different kinds of T5 fixtures, T5 and T5HO. Standard T5, in a "4 ft" bulb is 28 watts and is designed to supersede the 32 watt T8 fixtures in common use. T5HO is 54 watts (and there are "energy saver" 49 watt bulbs) and the two use different ballasts and the bulbs and ballast CANNOT be interchanged.

Standard T5 fixtures will eventually become popular, the bulbs are much easier to get in and out of the sockets, and the bulbs are somewhat shorter, this was done specifically with Troffer lights in mind where standard T8 and T12 bulbs are darn near impossible to get in and out of the troffer fixtures due being 4 ft in a fixture designed to fit in a 2x4 ft ceiling grid.

In most cases, its not the bulbs that define whether they are "high bay" or "low bay" but rather the fixtures, their ability to spread light or focus it, to reduce glare and create indirect light or to concentrate it so as to make the most use of it.

If you are thinking of T5HO bulbs and fixtures, I really don't think that they will be the problem most people are saying they are. Virtually everyone who has ACTUALLY INSTALLED and used T5HO fixtures are satisfied with them. Some had issues initially with the glare and resolved this with diffusers, some just got used to them. You want light, go T5HO.

Charles
 
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Va boy

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Madosta/Charles, I suppose my intelligence is showing itself now as I was unaware of a T5 vs. a T5 HO. See, you guys are pretty good!
 

madosta

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Madosta/Charles, I suppose my intelligence is showing itself now as I was unaware of a T5 vs. a T5 HO. See, you guys are pretty good!

There are some guys on here that know what they're talking about! Charles especially.

As he stated, there's a few garages on here that are super bright with T5HOs, and with the proper color bulb, look amazing and work just fine.
 

5mall5nail5

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OP, I run T5HO 4' and 8' fixtures in my 9 - 10 ft ceiling and it works GREAT.

Here is a picture of my (junked up and messy) welding table as I was making a cord for something:


Making cord by Jon Kensy, on Flickr

No special camera tricks, hand held the camera at like 11PM at night without issue! Tons of light.


Drywall and additional light by Jon Kensy, on Flickr
With 12' you can't go wrong.
 

stage20

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im in the market for lights as well. as far as pricing, you can just about go with double the amount of T8 for the price of the T5HO. i want it bright, and by the display in the stores, the T5s are almost led-like.
 

LandR

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I went t5ho in 11.5ft ceilings. 4bulb/8ft. It's very bright. If your work involves looking up at the ceiling I would recommend non HO. I have a lift in my garage and if I am under the car and look at the bulb directly I am momentarily blinded.
 
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Va boy

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OP, I run T5HO 4' and 8' fixtures in my 9 - 10 ft ceiling and it works GREAT.

Here is a picture of my (junked up and messy) welding table as I was making a cord for something:


Making cord by Jon Kensy, on Flickr

No special camera tricks, hand held the camera at like 11PM at night without issue! Tons of light.


Drywall and additional light by Jon Kensy, on Flickr
With 12' you can't go wrong.

I appreciate that picture for reference. It looks as though the sun is shining in there man!
 
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Va boy

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I went t5ho in 11.5ft ceilings. 4bulb/8ft. It's very bright. If your work involves looking up at the ceiling I would recommend non HO. I have a lift in my garage and if I am under the car and look at the bulb directly I am momentarily blinded.

I will have a 4 post lift. I'm currently trying to figure the best way to work my overhead lighting in that particular area. The lift will likely be in the up position most of the time as it will double as a storage tool.
 

2ManyProjects

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Fellow Garage Journal Brethern,

After running electrical and hanging Sheetrock, my garage will be done. It is a stick built 28'X30' with 12' ceilings. I had my mind set on the T5 fixtures, 48"/4 bulb fixtures, I have all but wrote the check out for them. However, as of late, I have come across more than one thread on here that states T5 fixtures in a garage with 12' ceilings is not the most wise choice. I'm reading that more like a 14' minimum is needed. Is this accurate?

It depends.

As Charles pointed out, there are two general classes of T5 fluorescent tubes: "Standard" (F28T5) and "High Output" (F54T5HO). The former are basically comparable to standard F32T8 tubes in terms of both light output and power consumption, but a tad more efficient (i.e., slightly brigher, while using slightly less power; but in both cases, the differences are only marginal). Hence, they can be used in pretty much all of the same applications, with similar results.

The latter, however, can be problematic in low-ceiling applications; and the "High Bay fixture vs. Low Bay fixture" issue mentioned by Charles is only part of that problem. Fundamentally, it comes down to intensity vs. evenness of distribution. When designing the lighting scheme for any given workspace, you start by setting a target brightness at the work surface/height. For a "serious" garage, that is typically around 100 lumens/ft.^2. For your 28x30 space, and presuming that the light is distributed perfectly evenly, that means a total light output of about 84,000 lumens at "working height" (somewhat more than that in terms of "source lumens"; but for purposes of this illustration, let's ignore that distinction in the interest of simplicity).

There are any number of possible ways to meet that target. For example, you could use 100 lamps, each capable of producing 840 lumens (such as, for example, these: http://www.1000bulbs.com/product/64863/IN-270827.html). At the other extreme, you could use just four very bright lamps, each capable of providing 21,000 lumens (say, for example, these: http://www.1000bulbs.com/product/53985/MH-02001.html). But neither of these is likely to be satisfactory. In the first case, it would mean a LOT of wiring (and at least in the case of the example above, the bulbs themselves are very inefficient). In the latter case, and given the relatively low ceiling height, the light would be FAR too unevenly distributed: The areas near those four lamps would be unbearably bright, while the areas further away would be horridly dim (particularly by comparison). Now, IF the ceiling was MUCH higher, this would be less of a problem, because the light from each source would have more opportunity to spread out and diffuse throughout the space as it travels down from the ceiling to the working surface; but it would take perhaps 20-25 feet (maybe more) of installed height to get such intense light sources to spread out ENOUGH to be usable in that space (which, coincidentally, means you would lose still more efficiency due to the increased source-to-target distance).

While that is obviously an extreme example, fundamentally the same principles apply when choosing between F32T8 (or F28T5) tubes and F54T5HO tubes. As a general rule, presuming relatively low (less than perhaps 15 feet or so) mounting heights, the latter simply provide TOO MUCH light per fixture (especially if there are more than two tubes per fixture); and so lead to using too few fixtures to EVENLY cover the space, despite the "average" brightness meeting (or even exceeding) your target.

Like I said, I just stumbled across this contraindication for the T5's, is this a valid argument, do I need to look at T8 fixtures? As for what I'll be doing in my garage, that will consist mostly of wrenching on my muscle cars, rebuilding carbs, engines, etc. So the whole reason I was willing to invest in T5's was for the incredible light output needed for such tasks.

First, for such things as "rebuilding carbs", you should be relying on well-implemented task lighting directly over your workbench. The shop's GENERAL lighting does not really bear on this very much. Beyond that, the most important goal you have for your general lighting is to avoid dim areas and shadows (including shadows created by the vehicles themselves). So PLACEMENT of the light fixtures becomes the really critical issue; and (again, in general) twin-tube F32T8 fixtures give you the most flexibility in terms of placement, as well as being "dim enough" (yes, I know that is a counter-intuitive term; but think about it) to allow you to use enough of them to TRULY cover the work areas evenly.


T5 or T5HO?

T8s are great IMHO, but like anything they will be the "old school" and the T5s will be the new standard.

T8s will be around for a LOOOOOOONG time. No need to worry about that.


OP, I run T5HO 4' and 8' fixtures in my 9 - 10 ft ceiling and it works GREAT.

Here is a picture of my (junked up and messy) welding table as I was making a cord for something:

{image deleted}

No special camera tricks, hand held the camera at like 11PM at night without issue! Tons of light.

{image deleted}

With 12' you can't go wrong.

I appreciate that picture for reference. It looks as though the sun is shining in there man!

It is fundamentally IMPOSSIBLE to meaningfully judge "brightness" from a photo posted here (or anywhere else online, for that matter). It's all about the camera's exposure settings; and in fact, it would indeed take some VERY "special camera tricks" (which would likely fail anyway) to even attempt to make such comparisons valid or meaningful.

 
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Va boy

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2Many, I appreciate the break down and explanations of said light fixtures. You truly "broke it down", but in a way I can follow. Thanks for the education. Lights are not just lights by any stretch are they?! My plan is starting to come together now, thanks everyone for your time.
 

BADSIX

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oregon coast
I just installed some t5HO shop style no diffuser 8 ft fixtures. I have 9 ft ceiling an like the light output, its great. you just can't have to much light.
Jay D
 

Falcon67

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FWIW - I was at a b-ball game in the (ancient) middle school gym. I noted that the lights were 8' 4 bulb T5, probably HO and waay up there. 20' maybe? I'd didn't really eyeball the dimensions or quantity except that IIRC they used 4 in a row across on the bottom of the girders. Rows maybe 8 or 10' apart. Lots of light in there for sure.
 
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Va boy

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FWIW - I was at a b-ball game in the (ancient) middle school gym. I noted that the lights were 8' 4 bulb T5, probably HO and waay up there. 20' maybe? I'd didn't really eyeball the dimensions or quantity except that IIRC they used 4 in a row across on the bottom of the girders. Rows maybe 8 or 10' apart. Lots of light in there for sure.

I stopped by my uncles work place today, big factory type warehouse, anyway he asked me to stop because he had just swapped out the old fixtures for some new T5's. Unreal how much of a difference they made. On the side with the T5's installed, it was like stepping out into the daylight, I'm sold.
 

Charles (in GA)

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Old 8 ft T12 lamps on the left, not HO, but were about 60 or so watt each, vs T5HO on the right. Lighter weight too. The original fixture that the T5HO replaced hung dead even with the one on the left. New fixture is quite a bit higher.

attachment.php
 

2ManyProjects

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I just installed some t5HO shop style no diffuser 8 ft fixtures. I have 9 ft ceiling an like the light output, its great. you just can't have to much light.
Jay D
I have T5HO , and it's great , like Jay just said.... you just can't have to much light

No one, least of all me, is claiming that F54T5HO lamps don't put out a lot more light per tube than F32T8 types do. But that misses the point by a country mile.

The thing is, with a relatively low (8-10 feet, for example) ceiling, by the time you get enough light fixtures installed at sufficiently close intervals to produce truly even lighting, even F32T8s will produce MORE than enough light to easily exceed the typical "100 lumens/ft.^2" benchmark typically used for "serious" garages. So "brighter" tubes are simply not needed.

If, in this same scenario, you go to F54T5HOs, you will be SO far in excess of your overall brightness target that you will be strongly tempted to cut back on the number of fixtures, and thus increase the spacing between them -- and THAT would be a big mistake.

You shouldn't have any problems with the 4 bulb T5 fixtures. High bay fixtures have 8 or 10 bulbs.

That is both a gross oversimplification, AND just plain WRONG.

First, what determines whether any given fixture is a "High Bay" or "Low Bay" type is strictly a matter of the design of that fixture (particularly the reflectors and diffusers used); it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the number of tubes it accommodates.

Secondly, even setting aside the "High Bay vs. Low Bay" issue, using four-tube T5HO fixtures would inevitably be WORSE than even two-tube T5HOs, for precisely the same reasons that T5HOs are inferior to T8s for this application -- it concentrates too much of the light into too few places.

 

5mall5nail5

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It is fundamentally IMPOSSIBLE to meaningfully judge "brightness" from a photo posted here (or anywhere else online, for that matter). It's all about the camera's exposure settings; and in fact, it would indeed take some VERY "special camera tricks" (which would likely fail anyway) to even attempt to make such comparisons valid or meaningful.


No it wouldn't.

I am not displaying the "brightness" I am displaying the lack of "hot spots" everyone claims.

If you notice in the image above you can plainly see the fixtures and bulbs - I've composited 3 explosred +1, 0, and -1 EV so that you can see, in fact, there are not huge bright white spots on the walls or floor. There is a SLIGHTLY brighter area on the wall (diffused, though, not a "hot spot") because my fixtures are mounted only 16 - 18" from the wall, but that lends for the entire wall to act like a diffuser. If it were a "hot spot" you'd plainly see it in the above photo.

If you'd like to discus exposure, I'd be glad to :)
 
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