A Sad Day at Lowes....

[2Big2Ride]

Quality can be made anywhere in the world. It is the responsibility of the brand for design, testing and QC to deliver the intended product. Yes, the factory needs QC also, but ultimately it is the brand's responsibility.

Many of the low quality products delivered to America are due to our own very high demand for low cost - as someone already stated. In general, too many Americans only view value as low price and never consider how well something works, how well it does the job, or how long it will last. We have been on the kick to buy it cheap, throw it away when it breaks and get another for a long time. ...and repeat cycle.

The move to off-shore manufacturing has much to do with our expectations of what we willing to pay for an item, along with what we expect for wages if we produced the same product.

Now that China (along with India & Brazil) has a developing middle class, many companies can keep their product in China and make more money than exporting and they don't have to deal with American companies always wanting things produced cheaper. Or they can now charge more for their products which will/is leading to inflation of off-shore produced goods. ...and creating opportunities for domestically produced goods.

Unfortunately, many brands are delivering exactly what the majority of consumers demand. As a society we need to learn a new definition for value and break the cycle of consumerism if we expect this to change.

Or to put it another way, the problem is us, not them.

...stepping off the soap box

 

[robertwhite]

For the record my Ford Supercab was built in Tennessee, from foreign parts.

Yeah, umm actually, your Ford truck was made in Kentucky (if it is a SD), not TN.

If it is a current F150, it was either made in Dearborn, MI or Claycomo, MS

Several years ago, the Norfolk, VA plant and the Canada plant shut down

No Ford truck has ever been manufactured in TN

 

[LawnDart79]

I won't buy any Irwin vise grips new. I will find them at swap meets. The next time I find some and buy them, I'm going to take a picture and email it to Irwin and voice my opinion about their move overseas. If I'm buying a chinese made tool, I'm not going to pay extra for a name brand on it.

I bought a 3 pack of imitation vise grips at TSC for 5 bucks. I bought them for welding, not wanting to ruin the few good VISE GRIPS that I have.

I agree. I won't buy ANY Irwin China vise grips either. I won't pay name brand prices for **** coming out of China. I don't give two fucks if they're "manufactured to strict Irwin specifications" or whatever the hell the label says.

Recently I've made it a priority of mine to check COO before purchasing goods. If a good USA option is available, I'll buy it.

 

[JohnMcD348]

Quality can be made anywhere in the world. It is the responsibility of the brand for design, testing and QC to deliver the intended product. Yes, the factory needs QC also, but ultimately it is the brand's responsibility.

Many of the low quality products delivered to America are due to our own very high demand for low cost - as someone already stated. In general, too many Americans only view value as low price and never consider how well something works, how well it does the job, or how long it will last. We have been on the kick to buy it cheap, throw it away when it breaks and get another for a long time. ...and repeat cycle.

The move to off-shore manufacturing has much to do with our expectations of what we willing to pay for an item, along with what we expect for wages if we produced the same product.

Now that China (along with India & Brazil) has a developing middle class, many companies can keep their product in China and make more money than exporting and they don't have to deal with American companies always wanting things produced cheaper. Or they can now charge more for their products which will/is leading to inflation of off-shore produced goods. ...and creating opportunities for domestically produced goods.

Unfortunately, many brands are delivering exactly what the majority of consumers demand. As a society we need to learn a new definition for value and break the cycle of consumerism if we expect this to change.

Or to put it another way, the problem is us, not them.

...stepping off the soap box

I honestly am beginning to believe that it is taught in school somehow. My 7 year old has that mentality and has no real idea of value or worth. I will say he's has autistic spectrum issues and is developmentally delayed, but, if you saw him and talked to him and interacted with him, you'd never know this. He's an otherwise functional and understanding person. BUT! He's like a lot of other 7 year old boys who goes out and plays and leaves his bike out, or his bat and glove or his play swords and light sabers. And, when something stops working or becomes defective due to abuse or not taking care of it, he just says:" That's OK, we can just get another one." To which my response is always the same: "NO!"

I've been psychologically beating it into his head when I bought him his first "real" tools and apron and tool box. That if you don't take care of your tools, your tools will not take care of you. He seems to be doing good with that. I keep hoping it will go on to his other toys and items and not just stop there.

 

[kartracer23]

Want to find out what's going on? Watch the documentary "The China Question" on CNBC. Very eye opening. It's on at 8PM EST on Sunday, but they'll replay it a bunch of times.

It boils down to this: Americans want cheap merchandise and to make cheap merchandise, the manufacturers have to go overseas. The show goes into a lot more detail of who / why / when & where. What I found most interesting was that the invention of the shipping container (1956 I believe) was the big catalyst.

 

[Zeke]

Want to find out what's going on? Watch the documentary "The China Question" on CNBC. Very eye opening. It's on at 8PM EST on Sunday, but they'll replay it a bunch of times.

It boils down to this: Americans want cheap merchandise and to make cheap merchandise, the manufacturers have to go overseas. The show goes into a lot more detail of who / why / when & where. What I found most interesting was that the invention of the shipping container (1956 I believe) was the big catalyst.

OK show I suppose. It explains alibaba.com too. I didn't make it all the way through.

 

[CKC]

Its a race to the bottom for Manufacturing USA, Japan, Mexico, China, India, whats next Afganistan?

 

[dieselmike]

Its a race to the bottom for Manufacturing USA, Japan, Mexico, China, India, whats next Afganistan?

yes, old thread. but go look where your digi camo is from. pakistan and afganistan.

 

[Jarhead0408]

Yeah, I was wondering why this one got resurrected.

But point taken, My memories a little fuzzy on this but if I'm not mistaken my cammies while I was in the Marine Corps were made in either Pakistan or Viet'Nam. Can't remember which but either way, What the hell? I guess when we fought in Korea we should have had on uniforms with the inside proudley stamped "Proudly made by the former nazi germany".....

We wouldn't have allowed it back then,
Why in the world do we allow that to happen now?

 

[Racer X]

I won't buy any Irwin vise grips new. I will find them at swap meets. The next time I find some and buy them, I'm going to take a picture and email it to Irwin and voice my opinion about their move overseas. If I'm buying a chinese made tool, I'm not going to pay extra for a name brand on it.

I bought a 3 pack of imitation vise grips at TSC for 5 bucks. I bought them for welding, not wanting to ruin the few good VISE GRIPS that I have.

Are your "Vise Grips" made on the same planet as mine? I have several pair
of genuine "Vise Grips" and they have been the biggest pieces of **** I have
ever owned. They have been banging around in my tool chests for 15-20
years now and I keep asking myself why I haven't pitched them in the trash
yet. They are sloppy, loose, and threaten to cause harm to my hands every
time I try to use them. Not to mention how easily the teeth round off and
the damage to the work piece the misaligned jaws will do.

The recent asian-made grips that I have used (not necessarily Irwin) are far
superior and a fraction of the price of the USA made originals.

 

[Trucky]

Are your "Vise Grips" made on the same planet as mine? I have several pair
of genuine "Vise Grips" and they have been the biggest pieces of **** I have
ever owned. They have been banging around in my tool chests for 15-20
years now and I keep asking myself why I haven't pitched them in the trash
yet. They are sloppy, loose, and threaten to cause harm to my hands every
time I try to use them. Not to mention how easily the teeth round off and
the damage to the work piece the misaligned jaws will do.

The recent asian-made grips that I have used (not necessarily Irwin) are far
superior and a fraction of the price of the USA made originals.

A fraction of the price? I've seen all kinds of Chicom and Taiwanese made Vise Grip copies and they're all a heck of a lot more "sloppy and loose". If you're really not happy with those vise grips, I'll take em. All my Petersen and US made Irwins have done me very well. What are you trying to use them for? Maybe I'll understand your concern a bit better with some context.

 

[omr]

I had to take my girl to Kohl's the other day, they have a large selection of American flag decorative wall plates, all made in China.

Note the 5 stars..lol

http://www.kohls.com/upgrade/websto...RODUCT<>prd_id=845524892885539&crosssell=true

 

[nyrapscalion]

I understand the sadness at the loss of another US manufactured tool but, ask yourself this, what could I have done to prevent this? Do I own every US made Kobalt branded tool (and I bought it new at full price at Lowes)?

I don't know what all of the drama is about the loss of US made Kobalt branded tools. It wasn't much of a line and was largely rebranded Danaher made tools similiar to KD, Napa, Craftsman, Allen, and others.

If you're worried about your favorite US made tool brand going overseas, buy as much as you can afford and use from their retailers. Ebay, used, flea market, and cripe purchases don't count. It needs to be new and from the retail market.

A side observation, the new Kobalt Taiwan made line of mechanics hand tools are far from cheap. In fact, I'm sure they'll be on clearance tables in about a year to be replaced by something from India because they're more expensive than the old US made Kobalt line.Sure, there are a couple of wrench sets on sale right now at half off but, the other sets and individual tools are pricey for a big box store. I've looked at some of the new tools starting to fill up their new display at a local Lowes. They have some neat but, over priced items such as a 12 inch long 1/4 inch drive flex head ratchet with comfort grip for $49.98. How many Lowes customers will spring for that ratchet? The new line is a lot larger than the Danaher produced selection.
On a different issue, instead of automatically labeling the new tools as **** just because they're made in Taiwan, you should pick and choose a few items you can use to make a real decision. Who knows, just like all of those imported cars on the roads, there might be a tool or two worth having.

Honestly there is no way to stop it. Apex tool bought out Danaher, Crescent and several others. Apparently their business model involves maximum
profits and no American jobs. Plain greed brought this on.

Collectively I think people today are simply too stupid to know or care. I work with kids that are young and dumb. Get high, get drunk, buy rims for the mustang, live at home.... I'm here pay me mentality. Most of the time too lazy to put their phone down to bother with work, much less vote.
This is where it stems from. Someday the thirtysomethings will run this country and we'll be in deeper trouble than we are now. American car companies will vanish, ALL manufacturing will be gone.

I'm wondering if they'll make a bid for larger tool companies (SK, Matco, MAC...) and send those jobs overseas as well.
If it happens, I'm selling a car/stereo system/blood to buy as much as I can.

 

[nanofrog]

Apex tool bought out Danaher....

Apex is actually a 50/50% joint venture between Danaher and Cooper Industries (neither a buy-out or merger, as each company still exists separately, and still own their respective brands they brought with them). I see it as a distribution company in order to sell what they carry (one-stop-shop if you will in specialized industries such as electronics - hand tools to instrumentation for example).

 

[PeterT]

I hope that any of you that don't seem to care where your tools or cars are manufactured, feel the pain that many of us in the midwest feel, and you lose your job.

 

[WWIIjeep]

I had to take my girl to Kohl's the other day, they have a large selection of American flag decorative wall plates, all made in China.

How ironic. Especially this description in the Kohl's ad:

"Distressed American flag-inspired design lends charm."

Back to Lowes...

I've bought plumbing and electrical fittings and hardware at Lowes, but never any hand tools or power tools because they've never stocked any of the brands, or particular models of brands I like. On the rare occasions when I ask for something and they suggest some alternative that they carry, I tell them why I don't want that. As if they'd actually listen, but it makes me feel better as I'm walking out.

 

[djmartins]

The answer is to do stuff here they can't do. Compete with them where we have an advantage, not a disadvantage. We have to educate, innovate, adapt, and overcome. I don't have the answers on how, but we must figure it out or we'll be Rome on our way to being India.

Not the answer.
The answer is to put tariffs on Chinese and Indian goods and play some
of the games both these countries do to limit their products in the US markets.

If me and my family is going to suffer and pay to "save the planet" then until China and India start doing the same tariff the hell out of their products.
After all, if you believe in "glowbull warming" then surely all the pollution created by the countries with almost HALF the world's population is more of a problem than the country with 5% of the population that no longer makes much....

 

[Jamech]

"Comparative advantage" and "creative destruction" at work in the global economy. Trade with other nations may harm certain people in certain industries but overall makes us more prosperous by providing us with goods and services at the lowest possible cost. Products are usually available in a variety of qualities governed by cost and global trade provides us with many more choices.

 

[Bull]

Well, it looks like Fedwrench nailed it. Hard to argue with any of this.

I understand the sadness at the loss of another US manufactured tool but, ask yourself this, what could I have done to prevent this? Do I own every US made Kobalt branded tool (and I bought it new at full price at Lowes)?

I don't know what all of the drama is about the loss of US made Kobalt branded tools. It wasn't much of a line and was largely rebranded Danaher made tools similiar to KD, Napa, Craftsman, Allen, and others.

If you're worried about your favorite US made tool brand going overseas, buy as much as you can afford and use from their retailers. Ebay, used, flea market, and cripe purchases don't count. It needs to be new and from the retail market.

A side observation, the new Kobalt Taiwan made line of mechanics hand tools are far from cheap. In fact, I'm sure they'll be on clearance tables in about a year to be replaced by something from India because they're more expensive than the old US made Kobalt line.Sure, there are a couple of wrench sets on sale right now at half off but, the other sets and individual tools are pricey for a big box store. I've looked at some of the new tools starting to fill up their new display at a local Lowes. They have some neat but, over priced items such as a 12 inch long 1/4 inch drive flex head ratchet with comfort grip for $49.98. How many Lowes customers will spring for that ratchet? The new line is a lot larger than the Danaher produced selection.
On a different issue, instead of automatically labeling the new tools as **** just because they're made in Taiwan, you should pick and choose a few items you can use to make a real decision. Who knows, just like all of those imported cars on the roads, there might be a tool or two worth having.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Are your "Vise Grips" made on the same planet as mine? I have several pair
of genuine "Vise Grips" and they have been the biggest pieces of **** I have
ever owned. They have been banging around in my tool chests for 15-20
years now and I keep asking myself why I haven't pitched them in the trash
yet. They are sloppy, loose, and threaten to cause harm to my hands every
time I try to use them. Not to mention how easily the teeth round off and
the damage to the work piece the misaligned jaws will do.

The recent asian-made grips that I have used (not necessarily Irwin) are far
superior and a fraction of the price of the USA made originals.

Yours must be from far off planet, mine are fine. I don't use them as a do-all tool but where a fastener is broke or in a clamping situation.

 

[DekeT]

I don't, for one minute, think that formerly American companies were NOT making good profits. They were not making the insanely huge profits that moving the industry overseas would bring so offshore they go.

Another sadness to this is that the Supreme Court has declared the corporations as having the same rights as individuals so now their political influence goes unabated.

They have abandoned American workers and American quality for corporate greed and influence, yet we allow their lobbying, congressional payoffs, tax breaks, and political rights to increase. At a minimum, corporate lobbying and political contributions should be required to be labeled as foreign if the workforce is not American,

 

[AffableCurmudgeon]

Not the answer.
The answer is to put tariffs on Chinese and Indian goods and play some
of the games both these countries do to limit their products in the US markets.

If me and my family is going to suffer and pay to "save the planet" then until China and India start doing the same tariff the hell out of their products.
After all, if you believe in "glowbull warming" then surely all the pollution created by the countries with almost HALF the world's population is more of a problem than the country with 5% of the population that no longer makes much....

Couldn't disagree more.

You cannot artificially grow the market by subsidizing cost or penalizing competition AND sustain it over a long period of time.

If you subsidize cost, you will have to quit doing it at some point because the object is MAKE money not pay money to people to buy your stuff. Case in point Airbus; Europeans subsidized the cost and look at them now.

If you impose tariffs, you only encourage alternative channels to grow through the path of least resistance. Money is more more fluid than water will always find its own way.

The answer is produce a better product at a price that your target demographic can afford to pay. Having just a better product won't help if the price is not affordable for everyone (Snap-on tools, for instance) and having the affordable price without a quality product will not earn you much repeat business.

We can all claim to be as patriotic and wave as many flags as we like but the truth of matter is that we, as a society, buy the best value. Country of origin makes some difference to some people but even they shop at Walmart.

 

[JimVonBaden]

Well we have no other choice.

I paid about $300 for the laptop I'm on so yes, I would happily pay $600 for one I knew was made in the US of US components. I would welcome that ability to choose.

That same computer made in the US would cost over $1000. Still willing to pay for it then? Even if you are, almost no one else would be.

Oh, and the Japanese make some of the finest tools in the world, so bashing all "asian" made tools is pure ignorance. The Chinese are perfectly capable of making the best tools in the world, but many of the companies who order them want cheap, not good.

Jim

 

[GOLF for LIFE]

Not to bash anyone but, I for one will not buy any made in china tools. Can you hear it chip CHIP CHIPPING AWAY at the USA. Tomorrow it may very well be your job that is outsourced to an over seas company.

 

[JimVonBaden]

Not to bash anyone but, I for one will not buy any made in china tools. Can you hear it chip CHIP CHIPPING AWAY at the USA. Tomorrow it may very well be your job that is outsourced to an over seas company.

And yet, you apparently own a VW and/or Audi?

Jim

 

[acer66]

Not to bash anyone but, I for one will not buy any made in china tools. Can you hear it chip CHIP CHIPPING AWAY at the USA. Tomorrow it may very well be your job that is outsourced to an over seas company.

Do only made china in things cause the

it chip CHIP CHIPPING AWAY at the USA

or also maybe stuff imported from, let me think for a second, Germany?

 

[LumpyMusic]

Some American cars are assembled in America with lots of other parts from over seas!

Including the SnapOn truck.


Lumpy
-
You looked goofy back then too
http://digitalcartography.com/camp/CraigPromo-Early.jpg

 

[WSMC633]

Where does a Chinese carpenter get his circular saw? What tools are in a Chinese mechanic's tool box? I bet a few of them are made right there in China (good ones, there must be some demand for quality, yes?) and they get rebranded and sent here, too.

Or are they all really just using Harbor Freight electric drills?

He probably uses a Makita. I know my new Makita Roto-Hammer is from China!

 

[matty d]

Dont you worry boys...cost of living is going up in China. As the poor get a taste of the good Westernized lifestyle and get empowered somewhat, this will make everything more expensive to the point where it will be just as costly or more effective to start making USA tools again. Of course this will take some time, but it will happen...

 

[little d]

When will it stop?
It will stop when WE as U.S. Citizens, together as one voice stand up and demand that our elected officials do their job; The Constitution of the United States of America, Article 1, Section 8 paragraph 3; “To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations,...”.

Ashamsi, with all due respect, I couldn’t disagree with you any stronger.

Here are two examples;
1, Rival MFG. Most of you will remember them for making the “Crock Pot”. A low paying job, minimum wage, with little to no benefits. Bought out by Holems and moved to China. Now imported back into OUR country @ about the same price. The loss of hundreds of jobs here in Missouri.
2, Harley Davidson Motorcycles. Bought from AMF in the mid 80's. At the time, you could buy 2 or 3 Japanese mfg motorcycles for the same price. The Executives that got together to buy it out did retool and redesign but, they also petitioned our elected representatives to balance out the trade to make OUR mfg products competitive.
Harley is “THE” success story of mfg in OUR country for our generation, providing thousands of decent paying, middle class jobs.

Million's upon million's more honest, hard working, middle class Americans are now “working poor” to the point that this generation is the first since WWII that will NOT do better than their parents.

When will it stop? When we restore the pride of “Made in the U.S.A.”. When we, as a nation, rise up and demand FAIR TRADE, not free trade.

 

[ar2stp48]

I must agree with this comment:
"...I don't, for one minute, think that formerly American companies were NOT making good profits. They were not making the insanely huge profits that moving the industry overseas would bring so offshore they go..." by DekeT

Ref that last C-man wrench I bought for approx $18. They didnt make a nice profit on it? Cost to produce was probably a couple of bucks--maybe $5 at max? Seems like a nice profit margin to me.

What is a reasonable profit percent compared to the greed amount wanted? Is 50%, 100%, 200%, 300%, or more? One dept store marks their items up by a simple formula of x4; their cost $60 gives your cost of $240. Seems like every step along the way to us the buyer is lined with a high expected profit

 

[brownbagg]

people cant afford american made tool. the price of the tool are so high to pay the high wages of the american mfg. By having a tool that doesnt break, they no reason to buy a new tool. in order for a company to make money, the tools need to break so they will be replaced, generation more income for the america mfg

 

[DekeT]

Dont you worry boys...cost of living is going up in China. As the poor get a taste of the good Westernized lifestyle and get empowered somewhat, this will make everything more expensive to the point where it will be just as costly or more effective to start making USA tools again. Of course this will take some time, but it will happen...

Someday the chinese are going to be pissed off at cheap labor from India and then the Indians are going to be pissed off at the malaysians and then the malays will be pissed off at cheap labor from africa. Maybe by then we will be importing from Mars.

 

[NWphotog]

"Comparative advantage" and "creative destruction" at work in the global economy. Trade with other nations may harm certain people in certain industries but overall makes us more prosperous by providing us with goods and services at the lowest possible cost. Products are usually available in a variety of qualities governed by cost and global trade provides us with many more choices.

This. Very smart poster who sees beyond a simple emotional knee jerk reaction.

 

[NWphotog]

Not to bash anyone but, I for one will not buy any made in china tools. Can you hear it chip CHIP CHIPPING AWAY at the USA. Tomorrow it may very well be your job that is outsourced to an over seas company.

Wow, very short sighted. So those outside the US should only buy products made in their country? Literally crazy. Trying to return to the 19th (YES 19th!!) century does no one good. Much smarter to see things accurately and promote what country does best. Trying to return to a long past time will only bury a country. Not something I'd like to see.

 

[Jamech]

I would like to know how "our elected representatives balanced out the trade to make our mfg products competitive".
I think a comparision of the material prosperity of Americans in the 1950's and 1960's with today is very interesting, however much of our current prosperity may be based on consumer credit.
Let's talk about the cost of the sugar tariff to American consumers. Thats $BILLIONS$ with a "B".

 

[sangamo16]

Part of the reason we lose jobs is because the world has advanced, and we Americans, sitting on our fat a**es, haven't. We can't compete with third world labor by demanding our companies pay us wages 4-5 times what our Asian counterparts make, working half as hard as they do, while our companies face much higher operating costs. Our superior technology once compensated for the cheap labor, but Asian companies now have the same technologies and automation equipment we do, with lower wages, lower or no health care costs, lower regulatory costs and taxes, laxer labor laws and no union regulations, etc. If we don't find ways to make our companies more efficient and profitable, all our manufacturing jobs are doomed.

Our education system is falling behind because our brightest kids aren't prepared to Ga Tech, but lots of foreign Asians are. Our kids are getting expensive, useless liberal arts degrees, which don't advance themselves or this country technologically.

As for Asian products being ****, I have never seen any piece of consumer electronics built as well as an Apple computer, which is assembled in China (I currently own 4 of them, ranging from a 2004 Powerbook to a 2012 MacBook Air). Each model is better than the last. Samsung and LG, two Korean extremely committed, demanding companies, design and build products as good as anything we ever did, and are getting better. I'm old enough to remember when the junk was Japanese, then Taiwanese, then Korean, now Chinese. Remember when Hyundais were ****? Now they compete to-to-toe with the Japanese, whose cars' quality surpassed ours decades ago. Asian countries continually improve, while we fall behind.

We've got to quit bitching, grow up, and take our work as seriously as our competition does, or we will become a third-world country.

 

[nti06]

The answer isn't to try and force things to be made here that can't be made here profitably. It's not smart to compete with them on things like cheap labor. I sure don't want to work for Chinese wages!

Tools can be made here profitably. Its the CORPORATE GREED thats pushing production to China because such low wages are acceptable there. All retailers make profit. Its the factor of greed and the desire of the CEO's to **** the shareholders #!#&'$ thats screwing over the consumer who wants a quality product.

 

[retrobuilder]

Lowes still has more USA products than at The Home Depot. Go over to HD and look at outdoor tool cutting chains, bars, lubricants, files..

 

[Maexle]

Dont you worry boys...cost of living is going up in China. As the poor get a taste of the good Westernized lifestyle and get empowered somewhat, this will make everything more expensive to the point where it will be just as costly or more effective to start making USA tools again. Of course this will take some time, but it will happen...

+1 on this....