A super accurate "framing square" on market?

[Marctrees]

I would like to have a very accurate "Framing square"

Let's call it a "Patternmaker's Tool and Die Makers Big *** Square"

More or less, more even better, just like every Carp has, 16" and 24" legs, or longer, BUT accurate enough to use to set up virtually perfect as possible furniture making jigs.

Would be babied, never tossed around.

Only occasional in shop bench use, by me alone kind of thing.

I'm not totally nuts, ( at least not yet diagnosed ) and an off the shelf $15 may be sufficient... so maybe the real question here is... HOW do I confirm it is how accurate?

I suppose I can check the individual legs for sufficient straightness, but HOW to check how accurate the 90 is at the end of legs?

Maybe I am OCD, and the flip test should be good enough, along a confirmed straight edge, with a sharp razor scribe, or something like that.

I just learned through experience years ago, that if stuff is not made as accurate as possible, errors may very possibly add up.

What do you Machinist type accuracy nut guys think ? Marc

 

[readhead]

Do you know how to adjust a square if it isn't accurate?

 

[Marctrees]

Actually no, but I will guess..

Probably something about laying it flat, and smackin it in the right spot w the ball of a hammer to open or close it depending on the strike spot ?

I did not cheat.

Marc

 

[readhead]

Mostly right. Take a ***** punch and punch the crotch to open it up or punch the heel to close it. When I worked in the sheet metal trade we checked our squares every time one got dropped. Every square in the shop had punch marks. Aluminum squares are the worst but you want to use one if you will be laying out aluminum parts to be welded. Using a carbide scribe with an aluminum square you don't run the risk of contaminating the weld.

 

[Marctrees]

Gotcha.

Found it here in meantime.. http://www.woodsmithtips.com/2011/02/17/is-your-framing-square-square/

I'm thinkin checking one w the flip test against an edge known to be perfect straight, and using the knife not pencil.

Thanks Redhead, Marc

 

[readhead]

Try to stick with steel if you can. They will take a lot more abuse. Of course you won't abuse it but just saying.

 

[gungatim]

a right triangle is 3-4-5. you can measure a square or make one from wood to your own specs knowing the math.

what kind of furniture jigs are you making? I don't think I've ever used a framing square in the woodshop making furniture, in fact rarely use one at all. I usually just use a tape measure or machinist squares for layout.

if you are making cabinets, you can make some large triangles out of plywood, drill large holes in each corner for clamps, trim the outer corner so it doesn't bind when putting a carcass together. works way better than a framing square if that is your application.

 

[Jon_E]

Check out the Woodpeckers squares. Guaranteed accuracy.

 

[Davefr]

For woodworking, use this along with a smaller machinist square. It's accurate to .1mm out of 100mm and a pleasure to use.

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,42936&p=64334

I just wouldn't use this for rough carpentry/framing.

 

[EOC_Jason]

I would start with a quality non-china brand of framing square, then check it against a known straight surface (metal or stone). Like the link someone posted you just flip it over and see if both lines match up and adjust as necessary.

 

[Git]

Woodpecker made their Precision Framing Square - but it was a 'one time' tool
http://www.woodpeck.com/2616squarewp.html

You may be able to find one used or occasionally they will offer their one time tools for the second time. I have one and use it as you have described, but to be honest, my $15 Irwin square is just as accurate.

If you want to spend some money - take a look at a Chappal Master Framer
http://chappellsquare.com/product/master-framer/

 

[My Old Tools]

The cheapest accurate square is a large plastic drafting triangle. They are very accurate.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000HEQN8M/?tag=atomicindus08-20


You don't need a square to make something square. The 3-4-5 rule works and you don't even have to know the actual dimensions, just evenly spaced increments. Many early structures were built using a 13 knot rope, just a rope with 13 evenly spaced knots to layout the 3-4-5 sides.

By the way, the first time you drop your super accurate framing square, you no longer have a super accurate framing square. Learn to check and adjust as needed. In the timber frame workshops I have been in, when a framing square hits the floor, everyone stops and checks theirs.

 

[Marctrees]

Gungatim sed - "if you are making cabinets, you can make some large triangles out of plywood, drill large holes in each corner for clamps, trim the outer corner so it doesn't bind when putting a carcass together. works way better than a framing square if that is your application."

That's kinda one thing I need it for.

I will be making a few dedicated assembly jigs for a few different frames that I have to do in quantity, and repeatedly.

So I'm gonna get some Melamine board, then screw strips on as fences at 90 degree that the frame pieces are clamped to to glue.

To make the fences 90 as accurate, I want that square.

Yes, have used 3,4,5 many times, but for this even though mathematically it's right on, to make my jig using just that, too much subjectiveness in reading the tape, pencil marks, etc.

Although, I suppose if I used a marking knife, and instead of a tapemeasure use an accurately cut story stick for my "5" hypotenuse, it should work.

Marc

 

[Cahark]

Woodpeckers makes a nice square. If you have access to a milling machine, set up your old Stanley and mill the edges square and straight. We have one at work like this and it's perfect for that machinist that also does carpentry.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jonesg]

a right triangle is 3-4-5. you can measure a square or make one from wood to your own specs knowing the math.

what kind of furniture jigs are you making? I don't think I've ever used a framing square in the woodshop making furniture, in fact rarely use one at all. I usually just use a tape measure or machinist squares for layout.

if you are making cabinets, you can make some large triangles out of plywood, drill large holes in each corner for clamps, trim the outer corner so it doesn't bind when putting a carcass together. works way better than a framing square if that is your application.

Thats right 345, European cabinet makers build their own.

 

[pfaustus]

Super accurate square for the cabinet maker? Starrett Builder's Combination Tool

http://www.starrett.com/metrology/p...easuring-tools/squares/Special-Squares/439-24

Good thing affordable wasn't on your list of requirements.

 

[RivennHewn]

Super accurate square for the cabinet maker? Starrett Builder's Combination Tool

http://www.starrett.com/metrology/p...easuring-tools/squares/Special-Squares/439-24

Good thing affordable wasn't on your list of requirements.

I got one of those in a lot of tools I bought off CL. It was really cool, but then I found out how much I could get for it.

I sold it and bought a number of different squares and misc tools with the $$ I made off it.

 

[Marctrees]

Well ok, I. thinkin about the 3,4,5 like I said in my previous post.

Done accurately w attention to detail and logic, will give me what I want.

I'm even gonna study up on that 345 to see how many decimals its rounded from, or on the nuts, or what.

Like we know Pi as 3.14, but very rounded off if you're doing technical calcs, but good enough for most jobs, but I really want my glue up jigs for miter corners to be accurate as possible, because w imperfect milled wood, imperfect eyes, imperfect fingers, it WILL deviate.. so I just want my "foundation" to be accurate as possible.

Remember, this is not Deck framing, where I've used 345 many times w a 25' tape and Sharpie marker, I'm talkin "splittin hairs" within thousandths on a 4' long leg to make me happy.

Again, at least on the aligning jig.

Going to search now for Pythagoras.

Here's a link in plain English ... Marc

https://mikelindstrom.wordpress.com/2007/01/22/getting-things-square-with-the-world-3-4-5-triangles/

 

[Peter Mc Mahon]

3,4,5 is not rounded up or down. It is absolute. Good luck at splittin hairs within a thousandth over 4'.

 

[RivennHewn]

Then Google: diminishing returns

 

[royce]

A few thoughts

Using 3-4-5 for layout is one thing, checking work with it is a bit more difficult, with 3 dimensions to sight and have potential error in.

The layout of a square corner with dividers or trammel, there is no measure needed, therefor less chance for error.

As far as a good square, I use 15" steel drafting triangles.
If I could find bigger ones, I'd use those.

The Starrett builders combo tool shown is a great tool, that still needs checked and adjusted as needed.

To do that, a good machinist square is needed

I check all squares on this large one, before they go to work.

One last thought, if you build a table saw sled following William Ng's Youtube vid, I think you will be more than content with the accuracy and have the ability to cut your own squares.

Royce

 

[MikeRock]

The Starrett Builders Tool is adjustable, and so the angle will be as accurate as you can read the scale. If you want a very accurate fixed square, perhaps the Starrett large 24" combination square: http://www.starrett.com/metrology/p...easuring-tools/squares/combination-squares/8H

 

[MaineGuide]

I love all of my Chappell squares. If you don't need a full size framing square, one of their smaller cabinet makers squares may suit you. I always seem to keep my #34 Gauging Square within easy reach.

 

[My Old Tools]

Steve Chappell was my first timber frame instructor.

 

[My Old Tools]

There was a great American Indian mathematician that lived about the same time a Pythagoras. He developed a corollary to the Pythagorean Theorem. Old Pythagoras gave us "the square of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides." The old Indian was sitting around the campfire one night and noticed the squaws working on various hides. Now one big old squaw had traded for herself a hippopotamus hide, and two smaller squaws were working on traditional deer hides. An idea hit him. He got a big rock and put a log across it. He placed the big squaw on one end of the log on her hide and placed the other two squaws on the other end on their hides. Low and behold they balanced. And there you have it, the corollary to the Pythagorean Theorem, "The squaw of the hippopotamus is equal to the sum of the squaws of the other two hides."

And yes, I have a degree in Mathematics.

 

[royce]

Great story Ross,
Made me think of Chief SOHCAHTOA

Royce

 

[Sal Bandini]

Wood moves with changing temp and humidity. You are overthinking this.

 

[nut_buster2017]

You may consider a rafter square or speed square; the flange on one edge presumably makes it stronger:

https://www.google.ca/search?q=raft...UICigB&biw=1340&bih=756#imgrc=Fi18fY6DDXDooM:


Alternatively, an engineer square:

https://www.google.ca/search?q=engi...hKXVAhVQ4GMKHUK4DxUQ_AUICigB&biw=1340&bih=756

 

[jp_over]

I found lots of great info in this thread - thanks to all who posted!

 

[MrDeerHunter]

Look up woodpeckers. The tools are red and excellent

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[beamrider]

A few thoughts


One last thought, if you build a table saw sled following William Ng's Youtube vid, I think you will be more than content with the accuracy and have the ability to cut your own squares.

Royce

You want to dial in the crappiest table saw? This is the way to do it. From there, making 345 triangles is a matter of simplicity.

However..I've made the mistake of chasing the third significant digit when woodworking....That's a long and twisted road, filled with potholes. Not necessary.