A white as a power wire??

[thammel]

I think I found a goof up. My garage wiring was done by a licensed electrican and passed elec inspection. but I think what I found tonight is wrong.

I have a lighting circuit that has two 3way switches and one 4 way in the middle as it should. I'm planning on doing a little rearranging and want to add another 4 way switch - attached to the other 4 way - I know how to do this properly.

Here's what befuddled me. On the one 3 way switch where I thought power was coming in, there is only one 3 wire cable coming into the box. Finally I figured out that the white wire was carrying power in - it is carrying power all the way from the other 3 way switch at the end of this circuit, and this is done by carrying power down all the white wires to the end here. Everything works ok, and this may be electricall ok, but I think what needs to be done is to black tape the white wires so others in the future will know they are NOT neutral wires.

Comments? Is what was done ok?

 

[belvedere]

Correct - if white is used as hot, it must be taped black.

 

[v7guy]

I thought you taped the white red?

 

[thammel]

I've always seen the white taped black to tell that it is a hot and not a neutral. The wierest part of this wiring setup is that in the box where this *********** wire run starts, the white wire is in with two black wires inside one wire nut - clearly a gross violation in my book!

Tom

 

[kbs2244]

It is the only way to do a 3 way switch.

 

[LoneGunman]

I've been in the trade for 15 years, I have never saw a white identified as an ungrounded conductor that I did not identify, it may be the right way to do it but it's rarely done.

"the white wire is in with two black wires inside one wire nut - clearly a gross violation in my book!"
Ummmmmmm, a white wire wire nutted to two blacks just screams switchleg, anyone with any experience sees that they know what it is. I'm not saying it shouldn't be taped, by all means go ahead and tape it, I just don't see it as a big deal.

This is the third or fourth post I remember about white wires being used as hots and how they must be identified or it's a bad practice. Anyone who relies on a wire color to keep them from getting lit up is a ***** looking to die, so what it's white, TEST it before you touch it. White wires even used as a grounded conductor (neutral) can still light you up bad, hence the name "grounded conductor"get in series with a neutral and see what happens, then you have the neutral on 277v systems, grab a hold of that, it will wake you up.

 

[Aceman]

I agree with LG.

Any electrician who sees a white wire used in this manner will know exactly what it's being used for.

EDIT: Forgot to add, a white can be reidentified any color, just as long as it's not gray or green. People telling you it must be black or red, are just telling you their personal preference.

 

[thammel]

Ok guys, I'm not an electrician by trade but am highly capable. So, the answer re "any electrician who sees a white wire being used this way (i.e., tied to black wires) knows exactly what it's being used for" doesn't help me since I'm not an electrician. So what does this tell you? To me it seems that it's being used to save cable/wire run. I would probably have run another 2 wire nm cable to provide power to the switch run but see that this is not really necessary. Is this what it tells you guys, the electricians?

Thanks!
Tom

 

[kbs2244]

This is a case of a PIC being worth a 1000 words.
You need to get a book with wireing diagrams of 3 and 4 way switchs.

 

[mrb]

To clear something up, the white in a cable (romex) may be reidentified, but a white in conduit may not.

 

[thammel]

The white wire is not in conduit, it is part of 3 wire nm. I have no problem wiring 3 and 4 way switches - have done many. What bugs me is seeing a white wire mixed in with blacks all under a wire nut. I think the white wire should be taped black to identify it as a hot wire and not a neutral. Also, I certainly realize that the neutral completes the circuit and may be carrying full current when the circuit is hot.

Tom

 

[Mouthsquatch]

Personally I've seen a lot worse, ALWAYS test first before messing with anyone else's work. If it bugs you mark it. As far as the red/black preference. I always mark with red, simply because your average electrician won't carry it on them all the time. So if it's red you KNOW it's hot. Also I've seen people that were too lazy to climb down a ladder to get a new wire nut when the one they took off is clearly damaged so they'll just twist it up and wrap BLACK electrical tape around it. Next time it's worked on and the black tape is pulled off the wire nut it usually pulls the marking tape off, however if you see red residue you know it was labeled as hot.

 

[Fuzz]

I've been in the trade for 12 years. When I was an apprentice, we didn't re-identify "hot" white conductors in romex. After the 1999 code change, all of our inspectors were on the look out for this violation. I have been black taping or black marker painting the white ever since. We had a saying back then, "The neutral is always white....but the white isn't always neutral". Which meant "check for voltage first, dummy". When you need to use "dead end" three ways and switch loops, the white wire becomes the "hot" wire.

If the OP has a problem with the oversight of the electrician and inspector in this matter, I suggest turning off the power and re-identifying the white conductor as an ungrounded current carrying conductor. Use any color sharpie you desire...except for gray or green.

 

[Falcon67]

I'm not an electrician but have done an awful lot of wiring for not being one. I always mark a white that's used for power with either a black marker on a switch leg or 3 way or red on a 240V motor run that can be done with "romex". I mark because if I don't, I'll damn sure forget what the deal was.

If it's more current than what the generic "12-2 w/gnd" will wire up, I buy the specific cable needed or colored separates. And yes, better check always. Last run in the house, I didn't - I have a diagram, I know what breaker that run is on. Cut the breaker, bit into the run with dikes - hey, there's a problem with your diagram Chris...

 

[travisd]

Last run in the house, I didn't - I have a diagram, I know what breaker that run is on. Cut the breaker, bit into the run with dikes - hey, there's a problem with your diagram Chris...

 

[rburke65]

Wired houses for 11 years and I agree with Lone Gunman. A white nutted to 2 or more blacks..."SWITCH LEG"!