Above-ground water tank-freeze performance

[bluedog225]

I got the pad put in for a water tank yesterday. I’m going to get something like below. Maybe 3000 gallons.

It will be filled from a downspout off the roof. Used for general watering needs, fire protection, etc.

I’m curious how these perform in freezing weather. We don’t get a lot of real cold days here in Texas, but it’s not unheard of to have a week below freezing. It’s rare, but it happens.

But even during what we call the big freeze that happened a few years ago, the ground didn’t freeze up. In fact in central Texas, we have no frost line to worry with.

Is a tank like this going to freeze and burst on me? And are there ways of keeping that from happening? Do I need to put a bubbler system in? Or is empty in the tank when it’s going to freeze for an extended period the correct answer?

I’d appreciate any input from you folks in colder climates.

Thanks

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[PCustoms]

I’d appreciate any input from you folks in colder climates.

Thanks

That would freeze here.

With your temps, and sun, I think freezing is a low probability. That's a lot of thermal mass to get to freezing if/when your air temp drops to 32F. If it were to freeze for a week, would that be an issue?

If so throw a stock tank heater on a thermostat in it.

 

[Fixr]

I got the pad put in for a water tank yesterday. I’m going to get something like below. Maybe 3000 gallons.

It will be filled from a downspout off the roof. Used for general watering needs, fire protection, etc.

I’m curious how these perform in freezing weather. We don’t get a lot of real cold days here in Texas, but it’s not unheard of to have a week below freezing. It’s rare, but it happens.

But even during what we call the big freeze that happened a few years ago, the ground didn’t freeze up. In fact in central Texas, we have no frost line to worry with.

Is a tank like this going to freeze and burst on me? And are there ways of keeping that from happening? Do I need to put a bubbler system in? Or is empty in the tank when it’s going to freeze for an extended period the correct answer?

I’d appreciate any input from you folks in colder climates.

Thanks

Durability Test: Enduraplas® vs Drivetanks.com – Enduraplas

We’re confident in the strength of our products, and we’ll do just about anything to prove that, even if that means doing the most over-the-top durability tests in the industry.

enduraplas.com

Where in Texas?

Unless maybe way up in the panhandle in an exceptionally cold year, I would never expect that to freeze solid. I used to work with a lot of the translucent ones here in southwest Virginia, and the worst we ever encountered was a few inches of ice on the top. A bubbler or floating stock tank heater will take care of that. The black plastic will do a lot to help as long as it gets some sun. OTOH, the water may get pretty warm in the summer.

 

[bluedog225]

Central Texas. Outside of Austin towards Houston.

One complicating factor is that I’m on solar, off-grid.

i’ve got about 20,000 W of battery power I can throw at it. I may double that to 40.

Our really cold days are often clear, and therefore bright and sunny. I don’t doubt I could carry a bubbler for many days. A tank heater might be more challenging.

 

[PCustoms]

I hadn't even thought of a bubbler!


That's probably the way to go. If the forecast calls for freezing turn it on. If you can deal with a potential freeze, leave it off to see what happens.

You could also throw a temp probe in it to monitor, odds are the water will still be above 40F even if the night temps drop to 20's

 

[Fixr]

Central Texas. Outside of Austin towards Houston.

One complicating factor is that I’m on solar, off-grid.

i’ve got about 20,000 W of battery power I can throw at it. I may double that to 40.

Our really cold days are often clear, and therefore bright and sunny. I don’t doubt I could carry a bubbler for many days. A tank heater might be more challenging.

Where you live, don't worry about it at all. Maybe keep a 2x4 or a crowbar around to break up ice if it ever forms on the top, but 3000 gallons of water holds a LOT of heat. A week of 20*F won't be a problem. If the forecast calls work a longer, colder period, you go to Tractor Supply and buy a floating tank heater. But even if it froze a foot thick, it won't hurt the tank.

 

[Fixr]

Another thought in line with being off-grid: a small solar pump to keep the surface water moving can help prevent or slow down freezing.

 

[pembol]

Agreed about the tank not freezing if it is full - there is a LOT of latent heat in 2000 gallons of water. But you may have to worry about the piping/fittings. Those should probably be protected in some way.

 

[bluedog225]

Agreed about the tank not freezing if it is full - there is a LOT of latent heat in 2000 gallons of water. But you may have to worry about the piping/fittings. Those should probably be protected in some way.

Agreed. I’ve had ball valves freeze on me even when the line did not. *****.

 

[rrwwff]

I wouldn’t be worried about freezing in your location.

 

[BruceMc]

The tank isn't going to freeze, but the outlet, lines, and any valves will. Just put some heat tape on them (and insulation) and you should be fine.

 

[Rusty Wrench]

You can do a calculation on this as a 'what if analysis in Excel'. The equation uses mass, specific heat, temp diff and energy. That would be how much energy to apply to a mass to keep it from freezing.

The other equation is Newtons Law of Cooling. Another simple equation, though I don't recall it.

The Engineers Toolbox site may have something to offer on this.

 

[PCustoms]

I was told there would be no math....


You're correct that this can all be calculated, but the OP is going to need some data

Sheet of the pants, in TX this probably won't be an issue under normal conditions

 

[bluedog225]

Maths is hard. I’m afraid I’ll need to rely on observations. Sounds like it will be fine. And a temp sensor and bubbler are doable.

 

[rancherbill]

Stock tank heater

https://www.homehardware.ca/en/1500...mHLP1aqoXLXV8IsGLn7F46uVtVVKJnSCAdjrHOka3Mvci

 

[PCustoms]

Stock tank heater

https://www.homehardware.ca/en/1500...mHLP1aqoXLXV8IsGLn7F46uVtVVKJnSCAdjrHOka3Mvci

Central Texas. Outside of Austin towards Houston.

One complicating factor is that I’m on solar, off-grid.

i’ve got about 20,000 W of battery power I can throw at it. I may double that to 40.

Our really cold days are often clear, and therefore bright and sunny. I don’t doubt I could carry a bubbler for many days. A tank heater might be more challenging.

 

[tez929rr]

I have a virtually identical tank at my windmill. The fill side plumbing from the windmill will freeze, so I have a drain valve at the low spot. At the bottom outlet from the tank I have a shutoff and it’s plumbed to a water trough for cattle. We had five straight days with lows in the 20’s this past week and nothing on the outlet side froze. Even the trough automatic fill valve didn’t freeze.

During the big freeze in 2021 I never had any problems, and it stayed below freezing for four days. I’m in the hill country so it’s usually 5-10 degrees colder than San Antonio, 40 miles south of us.

 

[Fixr]

The tank isn't going to freeze, but the outlet, lines, and any valves will. Just put some heat tape on them (and insulation) and you should be fine.

From foggy .memory of nearly 20 years ago, the bolted polypropylene ball valves we used on the outlets held up well to freezing without damage. OPs off-grid system may not have capacity to run heat tape, so that could be helpful, along with insulating. I'd be inclined to put an insulated box around the valve to take advantage of ground heat.

 

[Hank11]

It’s black and going to absorb lots of heat from the sun, so unlikely to freeze where you are. The lines may need some help. Could you bury or partly bury the tank? That might help too.

 

[BruceMc]

From foggy .memory of nearly 20 years ago, the bolted polypropylene ball valves we used on the outlets held up well to freezing without damage.

They can freeze in position, though. Really depends on the set-up and where the valve is located in the system. Around here, above ground tanks are very common (permafrost country), and it seems every third pickup also carries a transfer tank with a cam-lock ball valve on the tank. I always pull my valve off in between fillings for that reason.

 

[PopcornSutton]

I have an 1150 gallon tank I collect rain water in. I live in VA, so it gets colder here. The only thing I do over the winter is where the drain connection is. I cut a cheap plastic cooler bottom, made a doghouse slot on one end, and I got a short hear trace wire I zip tie to the 2" pipe. I put the heat trace on, cover the whole pipe piece with the cooler bottom and put a brick on top. In the 15 years I've had it, never had an issue.

By the way, there is a company in Winchester VA called PolyProcessing. They make and sell storage tanks. I paid about $300 for my tank. That company has other branches. That $1800 is way out of line.

 

[pembol]

By the way, there is a company in Winchester VA called PolyProcessing. They make and sell storage tanks. I paid about $300 for my tank. That company has other branches. That $1800 is way out of line.

15 Years ago that may have been the price, but now a $1/gal is about the going rate, not including freight. Freight is often a killer on these, so free 'ship to store' can make all the difference.

 

[tez929rr]

By the way, there is a company in Winchester VA called PolyProcessing. They make and sell storage tanks. I paid about $300 for my tank. That company has other branches. That $1800 is way out of line.

Lots of storage tanks around here. Drinking water, rain water collection, we even have a 40,000 gallon rainwater tank at our firehouse. The generally accepted rule of thumb is $1 per gallon cost estimate for all tanks: poly, concrete, and lined metal tanks. I don’t know about wooden tanks as no one uses them.

 

[PopcornSutton]

Two years ago I bought a smaller one, a 160 gallon, for 75 bucks. And it was more because it was a containment tank, an outer surround.

 

[dcg9381]

I got the pad put in for a water tank yesterday. I’m going to get something like below. Maybe 3000 gallons.
It will be filled from a downspout off the roof. Used for general watering needs, fire protection, etc.

You want a leaf eater and a first flush diverter. Otherwise the bottom of your tank will eventually be full of ****.

I’m curious how these perform in freezing weather. We don’t get a lot of real cold days here in Texas, but it’s not unheard of to have a week below freezing. It’s rare, but it happens.

I have 5 x 5000 gallon tanks. Same geography. 2021 we probably got 1" of ice all the way around these tanks. Not a problem.

Is a tank like this going to freeze and burst on me? And are there ways of keeping that from happening? Do I need to put a bubbler system in? Or is empty in the tank when it’s going to freeze for an extended period the correct answer?

I don't see any case where this much water would freeze substantially solid in central TX.

What you do have to watch out for with these tanks:

1) The tanks will expand / contract just with water fill pressure, you whatever you put on the "outlet" side of the tank needs to be setup for the tank to bulge and move around a bit. I put a 90 in and make sure that it's setup to allow "rotation" of the line as the tank flexes.

2) The lines to the tank themselves will freeze in TX. I use self-regulating heating heat tape and then wrap the lines with a cloth to keep out UV. Downstream lines I'm able to gravity drain when I turn the tank off.

In 2021 I circulated water from the tank, to the shop, then back to the tank just to keep things from freezing, but that was more about exposed water lines.

 

[bluedog225]

Thanks neighbor @dcg9381

I’ve got a single slope roof with about 35’ of gutter. I filled it with those big pipe cleaner deals and covered with the stainless leaf guard. The place stands well above the trees. I was wanting go straight to the tank.

But I do see the need for the first flush diverter with bird poop and insects. I’ll need to put some structure on top of the tank as the downspout corner is pretty far out from the building. Some of them have flat spots that seem intended for this purpose.

Instead of a free-fall of water, I may be able to downspout it.

 

[dcg9381]

I’ve got a single slope roof with about 35’ of gutter. I filled it with those big pipe cleaner deals and covered with the stainless leaf guard. The place stands well above the trees. I was wanting go straight to the tank. But I do see the need for the first flush diverter with bird poop and insects. I’ll need to put some structure on top of the tank as the downspout corner is pretty far out from the building. Some of them have flat spots that seem intended for this purpose.

That's pretty tall! Sounds like you have the rough stuff handled. First flush works pretty well.. If the roof is steel you might get away without it. You can actually drop just a 1" line down to a 3" "first flush" system at ground level, works pretty well.

First flush systems do require that you disable them if there is freezing rain. So I will give you that warning.. Otherwise they'll plug up at the end and explode the PVC. They do get a LOT of **** that would otherwise go to your tank.

These are our actual water supply for drinking water, after some filtering and UV.

Couple of ways to rig the water line / downspout to the tanks:

 

[hobie18]

Wow. Details on the fancy building

 

[dcg9381]

Wow. Details on the fancy building

I'm guessing zombie-proof tower?

 

[bluedog225]

You can actually drop just a 1" line down to a 3" "first flush" system at ground level, works pretty well.

Thanks. I don’t understand the line quoted above. Would you mind giving me some more detail?

The building is just a weekend place. I’ve been working on off and on for a few years. Eventually, it’ll have a balcony extended out from the second floor garage door. The outside is finished, but I’m still working on finishing out the inside.

The theme was more fire resistant than zombie proof.

 

[dcg9381]

Thanks. I don’t understand the line quoted above. Would you mind giving me some more detail?

Sure.

The theme was more fire resistant than zombie proof.

It's an interesting design. 2nd hand or did you build it originally? Don't knock zombie proof.


Note, don't under-size your down spout collection. I think these are 4" pipes.. This is a great tool for sizing:

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rainwaterharvesting.tamu.edu

I run 2 x 4" pipes off the house and in a good rain, I can fill those. We get about 4,000+ gallons per inch of 2 buildings.

 

[bluedog225]

I have only myself to blame. Been working on it for a while. Would be nice to finish it one day but I fear sheet rock work is going to be hard to come by.

Thanks for the photo. Got it. And I’ll look at the calculator.