AC Experts... Is this highway robbery?

[mpire]

OK, so my neighbors, two really great people, just had a brand new A/C system installed in their house. I would say its been maybe 6 weeks, probably less than that. Just over a month, because thats all the warranty they gave them.

They spent something like $6500+. I would guess square footage is around 2500 in their house.

I assume its a 4 ton system or whatever because they had the same exact model as I have.

So they have a brand new Amana unit, its fairly tall, I am not sure what model because I don't want to dig around in their bushes with a camera.

Anyways, they replaced all the ducting (I think they did), the inside and outside unit, wiring,etc but they did not replace the refrigerant lines between the inside and outside units.

The unit has been freezing up or something, and they tell me they have a refrigerant leak. Now I am no expert, but I thought freezing up was an issue with too little airflow or something other than leaking pipes.

So anyways the point of the story, the company is blaming the old lines and wants $800 to replace the two refrigerant lines. They told my neighbors that it was "cost" and I am racking my brain to find $800 to replace $200 at most of copper.

Now to add a layer of complexity, they also recently got a solar powered water heater. So they have a new large metal line-set cover type thing running up the side of the house from right by the outside A/C unit to the attic.

I could probably run the copper for them in about 2 hours max. It really couldn't be easier if you ask me. Its straight up the side of the house, then over 15 feet to the inside unit. Done.

If I spent $110.50 on 25 feet of line-set, how much more could it be for less than 50 feet?

I personally think they should good will the whole damned job, and maybe charge $150 for the copper.

It just makes me furious to even consider they paid top dollar for a brand new A/C with all the extras and they are pulling this ****.

I will make sure to get the company name and tell my friends.

 

[Falcon67]

We replaced our unit in 1998 with a 10 SEER Reem. Used the old line set. After 3 years of spring AC unit re-charges, I had the line set changed out. System would pull and hold a vacuum but leak down enough over winter to impact cooling. Cost back then was $350 and I helped run the stuff in the attic. So $800 may not be that far out of line, considering copper prices and labor pricing, plus pulling down and locking out the units, installing the set, evac and verifying (or recharging) the system charge.

 

[mpire]

Lots of people out there that DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING, and calling themselves HVAC contractors.

Lots of people like you, making lots of assumptions on the scope of work involved.

To be fair, I purchased 25' lineset about a month ago, so thats where I am basing my estimates for lineset. I paid $110 for 25 feet.

I know for a fact that I can run the copper line from the outside unit to the inside unit in under 2 hours. I have the exact same house, and I just ran a lineset on Sunday.

I don't know how long it will take me to flare the ends and hook it up, to be honest, thats what I am still trying to figure out. I am stumped on the de-burring part.

My A/C guy is coming out to do a service on my unit, check the levels, etc on Friday, and its costing me less than $100. However I use them for everything and we have a very good relationship, and I have a service plan where they come out and clean the coils and check the levels 3 times a year. So they are going to set the levels on the new system during the service call.

I would expect that it shouldn't cost this other A/C company any more than that to goodwill the fix.

 

[mpire]

My system is 10+ years old. They clean the coils inside and outside and check for leaks and efficiency or whatever. They haven't added any refrigerant since I moved in. Its fairly inexpensive and its a relationship thing I guess.

4 hours to set the levels? Wow. I hope it doesn't take that long to do the levels on the mini-split. I intend to vacuum it down ahead of time and let it sit a couple days to make sure it holds a vacuum.

Whats a triple evacuation for?

 

[mpire]

I don't think you have answered the main question.

Is it highway robber to charge someone $800 to fix something they should have replaced to begin with? I was a $6500 job after all.

 

[Jackfre]

While I understand your desire to help your neighbor, at this point the neighbor should be dealing exclusively with the original installing contractor until the job is complete and operating properly. You get in the middle of it and the original contractor is out of this job free and clear. Not knowing what the original conversation (not to mention the written agreement) between them was and what was to be replaced you really, in my opinion, need to let this play out between them. At this point they have invested a great deal of money on a system that net/net does not work.

 

[mpire]

While I understand your desire to help your neighbor, at this point the neighbor should be dealing exclusively with the original installing contractor until the job is complete and operating properly. You get in the middle of it and the original contractor is out of this job free and clear.

I am just pissed about it, thats all. I don't intend to get involved. I will offer sympathy and beer.

4 hours to pull and hold a vacuum to <450 microns.

If you know what a triple evac is, and what a micron gauge is, you would know.

Pulling a vacuum and letting it sit tells you nothing. Schrader valves are not designed to hold a vacuum.

Yeah, I have no idea what you are talking about. I plan on pulling a vacuum and letting it sit with the gauges on it for a couple days then my A/C guy will do all this micron voodoo that you speak of.

 

[brewchief]

Comparing the lineset on a mini split to a 4 ton unit isn't a fair comparison, mini is probably 1/2" or 5/8" and a 4 ton amana will be 7/8". 7/8 doesn't bend nearly as well as the smaller stuff and thus takes more time.

Unless a lineset is buried in a wall or ceiling and can't be replaced we replace it, if it is buried we will flush it and pressure test it by itself to insure that it is good.

Did the contractor bid to replace the lineset and then have the customer beat them up on price and tell them to leave it? I've seen this before, we walk from those type of jobs.

As far as warranty right now we can offer a 10 year parts and 10 year labor warranty as long as the customer does annual maintenance. Not fixing something a month later is pretty pisspoor service if you ask me unless they were given the option to replace and elected not to, if that's the case 800$ is a pretty fair price.

 

[mpire]

Did the contractor bid to replace the lineset and then have the customer beat them up on price and tell them to leave it? I've seen this before, we walk from those type of jobs.

Ummm, all the quotes I have gotten for my house have been in the 4-5k range. So for an additional two Thousand dollars, I would expect they would have all the bells and whistles. They are not technical people, so I doubt they beat them up over the lineset.

Also there is a new lineset cover going from the outside unit to the attic already that would make installing a lineset extremely simple. They would need to make one turn and thats it. Up side of house then into attic. The lineset cover was put in last year for the solar water heater, there is more than enough room in there to add three linesets.

Then do tell...

How many microns were in the system after sitting a few days, and how long it takes to pull down <450 and whether or not a triple evac is pulled...

I don't know, I am still working on the whole de-burring part. After that I will pull a vacuum, and if it stays after a couple days, then I will invest in having my actual a/c guy come out and do the levels etc. The installation manual doesn't say anything about nitrogen.

 

[Mike007]

I know for a fact that I can run the copper line from the outside unit to the inside unit in under 2 hours.

I don't know what you do for a living, but you are in the wrong business. I would like to see you:

Recover the refrigerant
Disconnect the old lineset and remove it
Run the new lineset
Cover it if needed
Replace the LLD
Set up a nitrogen purge
Braze the required joints
Do a nitrogen pressure test
Evacuate the system to 400 microns
Weigh in a rough charge
Start the system and adjust the charge
Clean everything up and load it all back on the truck

2 Hours? Good luck. I ran a new 50' lineset for a customer with a 4 ton unit last week to get it out of an interior wall. Had to go up the side of the house into the attic and then over to the unit. I had to cover it on the outside. It took me all of 8 hours, maybe a little more and I had a helper and was seriously rushing. I think $800 is probably extremely reasonable. The questions are why didn't they replace the lineset in the first place? And why didn't they know there was a leak? Even if they didn't nitrogen test, a micron gauge would of told them if there is a leak.

 

[mpire]

I don't know what you do for a living, but you are in the wrong business. I would like to see you:

Recover the refrigerant
Disconnect the old lineset and remove it
Run the new lineset
Cover it if needed
Replace the LLD
Set up a nitrogen purge
Braze the required joints
Do a nitrogen pressure test
Evacuate the system to 400 microns
Weigh in a rough charge
Start the system and adjust the charge
Clean everything up and load it all back on the truck

2 Hours? Good luck. I ran a new 50' lineset for a customer with a 4 ton unit last week to get it out of an interior wall. Had to go up the side of the house into the attic and then over to the unit. I had to cover it on the outside. It took me all of 8 hours, maybe a little more and I had a helper and was seriously rushing. I think $800 is probably extremely reasonable. The questions are why didn't they replace the line-set in the first place? And why didn't they know there was a leak? Even if they didn't nitrogen test, a micron gauge would of told them if there is a leak.

I never said I would do all that fancy stuff.

I was only planning on removing the line-set cover on the side of the house. Then running the new line-set up the side of the house into the attic, then replacing the line-set cover, then setting it next to the inside unit.

Thats what I can do in under 2 hours. I leave all the levels and purging and **** like that to the professionals. Duh. But I can hustle and do the grunt work. No need to pay professionals $100 a hour to do stuff I can do myself.

 

[brewchief]

Unless you bought a REALLY cheap no name whatever, deburring, flaring and nitrogen should all be in the I&O manual. I have not yet seen a mini split or standard split system manual that DIDN'T have that information.
.

I don't remember the brand but I installed a mini split that had this for instructions " Vacumize for at least 15 minutes before opening valves"

The rest of the instruction book was just as good, it read like engrish translated from Spanish translated from Japanese translated from German.

I just treat them like any other system, nitrogen pressure test followed by a proper vacuum down below 500 microns.

mpire I read your mini split thread, looks like that lineset was 3/8" x 1/4", that will bend much easier than a 7/8" x 3/8", you won't make a 90 degree bend in 7/8" without a bender that will fit in a lineset cover and into the house, a hand bend will have to large of radius.

FWIW I can have several thousand dollars in price difference between two quotes simply due to different equipment, a base model A/C and basic air handler(or furnace) compared to a two stage high seer A/C and variable speed air handler(or furnace)could have a huge price spread between them but both have the same capacity.

 

[green.bubbly]

A couple of years ago I had quotes for a new variable speed high efficiency unit. All three quotes suggested new line sets due to the different type of freon. But if you are just talking about replacing an old unit, the old line set could/should have been fine.

My only question is why replace the entire line set for a leak unless the line set was buried in walls and the leak could not be easily found.

 

[Stilwell]

FWIW I can have several thousand dollars in price difference between two quotes simply due to different equipment, a base model A/C and basic air handler(or furnace) compared to a two stage high seer A/C and variable speed air handler(or furnace)could have a huge price spread between them but both have the same capacity.

+1 on this. I am currently in the bid process for replacing the system in my house. The quotes I have include the outside compressor unit, inside coil, air handler with gas heat exchanger, new line sets and all new supply ducts. The furnace is in the attic making the job even more fun. My quotes are ranging from $6K to $11K depending on the efficiency of the equipment. What I mean by this is that each company has given me multiple bids in this range using the same brand of equipment but varying the SEER rating, furnace efficiency, variable speed, etc.

By the way, this does not include anything really outrageous such as 98% efficiency furnaces, 19 or 21 SEER AC units, etc.

 

[mpire]

A couple of years ago I had quotes for a new variable speed high efficiency unit. All three quotes suggested new line sets due to the different type of freon. But if you are just talking about replacing an old unit, the old line set could/should have been fine.

Whoa! Hold on.

You need to change line-sets when you go from R22 or whatever (10 years old) to the new 410 stuff? Maybe they should have known that?

Something sounds fishy.

 

[AlbertaGuy]

I keep seeing this and now I want to address it. Pulling and "holding " a vaccum is NOT a leak test. You leak test a system with nitrogen before you vaccum. Leak testing via vaccum (if there is a leak) will pull air into your system, the same thing that you want to keep out. Air contains moisture which is bad bad bad for the system. Only a hack works like this. And all the talk about copper. Im sure that the rating is the same in the states as it is in canada. A/C tubing is marked ACR. Heavier walled and flushed with nitrogen, to keep out the moisture.

 

[mpire]

I think you are missing my point. I have done automotive a/c work and while its not the same, the basic principles still apply.

Pulling a vacuum and letting it sit for a couple days to verify you have a good seal is done to make sure you have it put together correctly before you have to pay the guy to come out and do the nitrogen thing and set all the refrigerant levels according to the length of copper etc.

I have never said that I don't plan on using the services of a professional, I just don't need to pay for things other than their expertise. Hanging wall brackets and running wires and copper aren't exactly tasks that require knowledge.

 

[mpire]

In that case, I expect my a/c guy to check these things and let me know before he starts removing the refrigerant.

I am paying someone to do this stuff. I expect that it will be done correctly.

I am only doing the basic assembly. I don't intend to buy all these special tools for single installation. Its cheaper to just pay the professional.

My gauges don't have any schrader valves, so I am not sure what you are referring to.

 

[mpire]

Oh well.

 

[mpire]

The service ports on the equipment. Those are usually Schrader valves.

I see. The valves on the mini-split I am installing right now require an allen wrench to open the system and let the refrigerant into the lines. I do not intend to mess with that valve, I only intend to vacuum out the lines and the inside evaporator unit.

I will be leaving the gauges on there a couple days as well, they can hold a vacuum indefinitely.

 

[brewchief]

I will be leaving the gauges on there a couple days as well, they can hold a vacuum indefinitely.

The gauges may hold a vacuum but the hoses will not, I can see my micron gauge start climbing pretty quick with just my hoses connected.

I'm curious as to what you have for a vacuum pump, it's not one of those air powered deals is it?

 

[mpire]

My stuff is all for automotive type stuff, but its a real vacuum pump, not those pneumatic type things. You can't get a decent vacuum with those pneumatic type vacuum units.

Why does everyone keep telling me that my tools aren't good enough when I keep saying I plan on having the guy with all these special tools come out and make sure its done right. The only thing I can really screw up is the flare connections on the copper, which is why I am testing it out with a vacuum.

 

[Mike007]

I keep seeing this and now I want to address it. Pulling and "holding " a vaccum is NOT a leak test. You leak test a system with nitrogen before you vaccum.

If you have a very, very small leak, a nitrogen test is not going to indicate it in an hour. How long can you leave a nitrogen test on? I nitrogen test as long as possible which tells me there are no big leaks, then I pull a vacuum. Having used my micron gauge and vacuum set up everyday, I know how low my micron gauge will go on a 100% tight and dry system. And how low it won't go if there is a tiny leak somewhere. Particularly on a new dry system. Leaving a system under a vacuum without the pump running to check for leaks is commonly done, and is not correct.

 

[kaffine]

I just looked through the manual for my LG mini split. It says you can use nitrogen to pressure test or just open the liquid service valve for 3 seconds then close it again. Then after checking the fittings with soapy water hook a vacuum pump up and run for 10 minutes if less than 33 feet of line or 15 minutes if more than 33 feet of line. No mention of a micron gauge. I did notice the install manual is a bit old it only shows a low side service fitting and they now have them on both low and high. Of course the manual is pretty bad to begin with so I am not too surprised.

Seems if they are hoping a Tech is installing the system and they don't need to spell it out. And my understanding is there is no warranty if not done by a licensed Tech. Why spell out exactly what needs to be done if industry standards that all Techs should be following apply?

 

[HVAC Phil]

The lineset should have been replaced. The old r-22 oil in lineset is not compatible with the new r410a. It could have been flushed, but if not done correctly, would cause more harm. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it wasn't flushed properly, since they couldn't even properly check for leaks. That compressor in the new condensing unit should be dead soon. Using Amana equiptment should raise a flag, the company puts in what i call the "KIA" of HVAC equiptment. $6500 for that junk, i wish i had customers that gulible. That job shoulda maxed out at $4500, and i haven't even seen it.

 

[HVAC Phil]

My stuff is all for automotive type stuff, but its a real vacuum pump, not those pneumatic type things. You can't get a decent vacuum with those pneumatic type vacuum units.

Why does everyone keep telling me that my tools aren't good enough when I keep saying I plan on having the guy with all these special tools come out and make sure its done right. The only thing I can really screw up is the flare connections on the copper, which is why I am testing it out with a vacuum.

Plus leaving a system stuck in a vacuum for a few days is going to introduce moisture in the system due to the temperature changes in ambient air from day to night. If i were going to leave a system set for a couple days, it should be filled with nitrogen prior to vacuuming.

 

[rickairmedic]

Phill do you sell Carrier , Trane or Lennox .

Rick

 

[HVAC Phil]

Rick, i actually sell Comfortmaker, which is made by Carrier. I never have issues with the stuff, been using it for over 15yrs now.

 

[old51]

The lineset should have been replaced. The old r-22 oil in lineset is not compatible with the new r410a. It could have been flushed, but if not done correctly, would cause more harm. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it wasn't flushed properly, since they couldn't even properly check for leaks. That compressor in the new condensing unit should be dead soon. Using Amana equiptment should raise a flag, the company puts in what i call the "KIA" of HVAC equiptment. $6500 for that junk, i wish i had customers that gulible. That job shoulda maxed out at $4500, and i haven't even seen it.

Now, that there is what should have happened.
I think your friend is gettin taken.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

Rick, i actually sell Comfortmaker, which is made by Carrier. I never have issues with the stuff, been using it for over 15yrs now.

Phil put a lot of comfortmakers in also, very few problems.

 

[Giraffe]

Why does everyone keep telling me that my tools aren't good enough when I keep saying I plan on having the guy with all these special tools come out and make sure its done right.

Yes, this is a good question.

As to your original question, you will rarely get me to claim anything other than highway robbery is highway robbery as long as the customer voluntarily entered into the contract and had freedom to choose with whom to enter into the contract. Prices vary, based on supply and demand and the intricacies of the job. "Professional service" from one licensed technician is not necessarily the same quality of "professional service" from another, and sometimes not even better than the quality that a skilled homeowner could accomplish.

I say that the best way to answer your original question for this specific job is to get quotes from competing businesses. Unfortunately, you may have to keep in mind that the market may not actually be free because of the barriers to competition that local businesses have set up through government in your area.