AC help

[Catadj78]

We are having to refill the freon for the AC in the house about every 2-3 months. AC guy says it would cost too much to fix the leak and that I need everything new. Quotes me 5k.

The old unit runs fine from what I can tell other than the leak. I was hoping to move it out to the shop once I replace the house system.

Questions I have

Seems to me fixing the leak is what should be done
I found goodman units online for 1600-2000 shipped. Is install something I should try myself?

Does 5k seem reasonable for a 2.5 ton system?

 

[The Cobbler]

I guess it depends on where the leak is re cost to repair. a coil or condenser on an r22 system I would say is scrap

 

[engineer2]

Seems OK if they are including a name-brand high efficiency furnace too. Around here it might be half that for AC only. It's a no-no to discharge refrigerant into the atmosphere, but since you have a leak, you are already doing it. If you have the tools and skills, it's not too hard:
Refrigerant recovery unit (unless you want to discharge to the air)
A source for the refrigerant (might need a license to buy depending on what kind)
Oxy-acetylene torch and brazing skills
Sheet metal tools and skills to replace the A-coil (unless you want to re-use the old one)
Vacuum pump and gauges
Charging scale
Leak detection equipment
Electrical skills
I know how to do this and have about half the tools, but I think I would still leave it to the HVAC experts. The advantage is they do it, and you have a working system with a warranty.

 

[Richard Cranium]

I really hate when a tech tell you it would be too expensive to repair, unless they have taken it apart and found the leak, and if they found the leak why didn't they repair it them

 

[Catadj78]

Ideally I'd like to let the pros do it but I have a hard time now knowing the parts are about 2k and 3k in labor.

Anyone heat/cool with a mini split? My house is 1500 sq ft or so. I'd think I'd need two units then.

 

[engineer2]

If the leak is in the A-coil or condensing unit fins, then there is really no easy or economical way to fix it.

$3k in labor? That's crazy. 2 man crew X 8 hours X a generous $80/hr would only be $1280, and that would be enough time to replace the furnace too.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

how old is the unit?
if your system leaks down after two or three months that should be a easy leak to find, it's the ones that take 5 years to run low that can be almost impossible to find.

5 grand seems high

 

[mrobins297aaa]

Ideally I'd like to let the pros do it but I have a hard time now knowing the parts are about 2k and 3k in labor.

Anyone heat/cool with a mini split? My house is 1500 sq ft or so. I'd think I'd need two units then.

your right about that, assuming you have a basement and a up flow furnace.
Changing out the A coil, line set, condenser, maybe a little bit of duct work change and thermostat.
you already have the 240 volt wiring and the thermostat wire.

That's a two man job for about 4-5 hours.
and besides that the equipment is probably less that the 1600 you quoted

 

[mrobins297aaa]

If the leak is in the A-coil or condensing unit fins, then there is really no easy or economical way to fix it.

$3k in labor? That's crazy. 2 man crew X 8 hours X a generous $80/hr would only be $1280, and that would be enough time to replace the furnace too.

that's not really true if the condenser tubing is copper you can just cut those alum fins away and solder the leak...........I did one for a guy that bought a new condenser that a fork lift had put a hole in the tubing, just cut away the fins and solder it up.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

If I was you I would see if I can find the leak myself. Get yourself some dishwashing liquid and soap bubble all the connections you can see external of the A coil and the condenser. who knows you might be able to find it and if you happen to have flared connections you might just be able to tighten it up. Make sure the caps on the access ports are tight.
look for oil around the connections, whenever you have a leak it will always leak oil also.
check the line set (especially the suction line the one with the black insulation on it) for any sharp 90 deg bends where someone may have put a 90 deg elbow in the line set and then covered it with insulation.........it could be leaking.

 

[Catadj78]

If I was you I would see if I can find the leak myself. Get yourself some dishwashing liquid and soap bubble all the connections you can see external of the A coil and the condenser. who knows you might be able to find it and if you happen to have flared connections you might just be able to tighten it up. Make sure the caps on the access ports are tight.
look for oil around the connections, whenever you have a leak it will always leak oil also.
check the line set (especially the suction line the one with the black insulation on it) for any sharp 90 deg bends where someone may have put a 90 deg elbow in the line set and then covered it with insulation.........it could be leaking.

Everything is in the attic. The AC froze over last night. Is it still possible to find the leak with it being that low?

 

[bonneyman]

I really hate when a tech tell you it would be too expensive to repair, unless they have taken it apart and found the leak, and if they found the leak why didn't they repair it them

Exactly.

The only possible leak that would be cost-prohibitive would be an older R22 evap coil. Since everything now is manufactured for R410a, finding a coil that will fit an odd-sized coil cabinet AND be convertible to R22 AND work well enough could be expensive. And I've told customers that before myself.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

Everything is in the attic. The AC froze over last night. Is it still possible to find the leak with it being that low?

sure it is, there's still pressure in there

 

[Trey T]

Sounds like a highway robbery, and if you don't recognize that, I highly recommend you not trying to fix or replace the system yourself.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Exactly.

The only possible leak that would be cost-prohibitive would be an older R22 evap coil. Since everything now is manufactured for R410a, finding a coil that will fit an odd-sized coil cabinet AND be convertible to R22 AND work well enough could be expensive. And I've told customers that before myself.

You can use 410a coils in r22 systems,you just cant use r22 coils with 410a.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

sure it is, there's still pressure in there

Not much freon in there at that point.
Better off to pump what's left in there back in to condensing unit ,then pump rest of system full of nitrogen and start looking for the leak.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Sounds like the armchair quarterbacks/hvac guys have all got their computers fired up.

 

[Jinks]

Ideally I'd like to let the pros do it but I have a hard time now knowing the parts are about 2k and 3k in labor.

Anyone heat/cool with a mini split? My house is 1500 sq ft or so. I'd think I'd need two units then.

Most of europe & asia heat & cool with mini splits. For 1500 sq ft I'd look into it. You could DIY, save a bunch of money, & replace them easily & economically if one ever failed.

 

[Catadj78]

Sounds like a highway robbery, and if you don't recognize that, I highly recommend you not trying to fix or replace the system yourself.

I do recognize it. We have few options where I live unless the guy drives from over an hour away. This is a first for me.

If it wasn't my busy season with work I'd be more inclined to try it myself but I'll need to leave for work soon and I have an 8 month old at home. I'm getting a firm quote from the guy tomorrow. I figured 3k would be fair and would cut him a check right then

 

[mrobins297aaa]

Not much freon in there at that point.
Better off to pump what's left in there back in to condensing unit ,then pump rest of system full of nitrogen and start looking for the leak.

I don't think the OP has the tools or the experience to do what your suggesting.
I was trying to give him a way he might find the leak with the tools he has....soap bubbles.

and besides if there is enough Freon in there to frost the coil there probably at least 60 or 80 psi still in there and with the size of the leak he has he might just be able to find it.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I don't think the OP has the tools or the experience to do what your suggesting.
I was trying to give him a way he might find the leak with the tools he has....soap bubbles.

and besides if there is enough Freon in there to frost the coil there probably at least 60 or 80 psi still in there and with the size of the leak he has he might just be able to find it.

Do you do much ac work? Normally if it's iced up from being low on freon that kicks in when it gets down to around 30 lbs of pressure on the suction side.
Unless its iced up from a really dirty filter or coil,thats,a completely differant can of worms.
I leak check systems with 300 lbs of nitrogen,30 lbs of pressure isn't going to tell you much unless you know where to look.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

Do you do much ac work? Normally if it's iced up from being low on freon that kicks in when it gets down to around 30 lbs of pressure on the suction side.
Unless its iced up from a really dirty filter or coil,thats,a completely differant can of worms.
I leak check systems with 300 lbs of nitrogen,30 lbs of pressure isn't going to tell you much unless you know where to look.

well I stand by what I said, I never said your way wasn't better, I agree with a frosted coil the suction pressure could well be around 30 psi but I think with the system off and when the pressures equalize I think it could closer to 60/80 psi.
he has a big leak here, you might even be able to hear it..........
as far as ac work..........none in the last 9 years, I'm retired but before that I had 41 years doing HVAC work. Also I've had a 608 universal lic. since 1994

 

[eddieK]

We are having to refill the freon for the AC in the house about every 2-3 months. AC guy says it would cost too much to fix the leak and that I need everything new. Quotes me 5k.

The old unit runs fine from what I can tell other than the leak. I was hoping to move it out to the shop once I replace the house system.

Questions I have

Seems to me fixing the leak is what should be done
I found goodman units online for 1600-2000 shipped. Is install something I should try myself?

Does 5k seem reasonable for a 2.5 ton system?

That quote is not excessive...For a horizontal application. Duct work alterations, platform issues, demo is much more difficult, more expensive to make sure the home stays clean from all the nasty product you are dragging out of the home. Probably going to be bumped up to 3 ton condensing unit because 1/2 sized coils are now a rare breed. That equipment quote does not include evap coil, platform drain pan, flush for line set, condenser pad, nitrogen for pressure test, silver brazing, copper piping, fittings etc etc...that attic labor (usually a day and a half two men)...is difficult NASTY, hot, sweaty, itchy, filthy environment labor.

BUT...If the system just has a leak, I always recommend a leak search and seal procedure.

Depending on how much R22 your system needs, the cost is between 650 and 900...But you now have a system that could last 10 15 yrs...without expensive seasonal recharge fees.

First reclaim and store existing refrigerant. Then charge system with nitrogen / leak test. search for leaks and then seal them. If the leak rate is so small it cannot be located use a leak sealant (I did not trust these at first but have had great success the last five or so years). evacuate system to 500 microns, recharge with reclaimed and whatever is required to complete charge...insert leak sealant if necessary.

NOTE: Most of these projects I have worked on I find an excessively clogged evap coil, especially if the filter is in the attic where people do not want to go to change filters.

 

[eddieK]

You can use 410a coils in r22 systems,you just cant use r22 coils with 410a.

It's not the coils...it's the metering device. If it is piston you can change it...If it is TXV (bolt on or not) you can change this as well.

 

[Catadj78]

That quote is not excessive...For a horizontal application. Duct work alterations, platform issues, demo is much more difficult, more expensive to make sure the home stays clean from all the nasty product you are dragging out of the home. Probably going to be bumped up to 3 ton condensing unit because 1/2 sized coils are now a rare breed. That equipment quote does not include evap coil, platform drain pan, flush for line set, condenser pad, nitrogen for pressure test, silver brazing, copper piping, fittings etc etc...that attic labor (usually a day and a half two men)...is difficult NASTY, hot, sweaty, itchy, filthy environment labor.

BUT...If the system just has a leak, I always recommend a leak search and seal procedure.

Depending on how much R22 your system needs, the cost is between 650 and 900...But you now have a system that could last 10 15 yrs...without expensive seasonal recharge fees.

First reclaim and store existing refrigerant. Then charge system with nitrogen / leak test. search for leaks and then seal them. If the leak rate is so small it cannot be located use a leak sealant (I did not trust these at first but have had great success the last five or so years). evacuate system to 500 microns, recharge with reclaimed and whatever is required to complete charge...insert leak sealant if necessary.

NOTE: Most of these projects I have worked on I find an excessively clogged evap coil, especially if the filter is in the attic where people do not want to go to change filters.

I have not been in the attic looking around yet. There is a filter in the hallway that my wife changes religiously. Is there something I need to look at in the attic?

 

[Catadj78]

That quote is not excessive...For a horizontal application. Duct work alterations, platform issues, demo is much more difficult, more expensive to make sure the home stays clean from all the nasty product you are dragging out of the home. Probably going to be bumped up to 3 ton condensing unit because 1/2 sized coils are now a rare breed. That equipment quote does not include evap coil, platform drain pan, flush for line set, condenser pad, nitrogen for pressure test, silver brazing, copper piping, fittings etc etc...that attic labor (usually a day and a half two men)...is difficult NASTY, hot, sweaty, itchy, filthy environment labor.

BUT...If the system just has a leak, I always recommend a leak search and seal procedure.

Depending on how much R22 your system needs, the cost is between 650 and 900...But you now have a system that could last 10 15 yrs...without expensive seasonal recharge fees.

First reclaim and store existing refrigerant. Then charge system with nitrogen / leak test. search for leaks and then seal them. If the leak rate is so small it cannot be located use a leak sealant (I did not trust these at first but have had great success the last five or so years). evacuate system to 500 microns, recharge with reclaimed and whatever is required to complete charge...insert leak sealant if necessary.

NOTE: Most of these projects I have worked on I find an excessively clogged evap coil, especially if the filter is in the attic where people do not want to go to change filters.

I am pretty sure he was not quoting replacing ductwork or condenser pad. I'll find out for sure tomorrow though

 

[Falcon67]

Quote is fair IMHO for a system change out, no duct work, etc. You buying a system online and calling your AC guy to charge it up and maintain it will either cost the same, or you will pay the max hourly rate every time it's touched.

If you don't want to buy a new system, then replace the lines. They don't have to run where they are now, they just have to get from here to there. Probably $500ish or so more of less. HOWEVER - what I've seen is that leaks tend to make a system work harder and that wears on the compressor. If your compressor is drawing more amps but enjoying it less, then it's probably time to update.

 

[eddieK]

I am pretty sure he was not quoting replacing ductwork or condenser pad. I'll find out for sure tomorrow though

Horizontal furnace...no way to change out without removing existing duct connections...and usually altering to re attach. I must stress that sometimes this is extremely difficult if the system is installed in a tight space. New coils are larger to achieve more efficiency (more surface area)...adds more difficulty (labor).

Closet or platform, no need (usually), just adapt plenum.

How old is your system? (serial number usually notes man. date). I ask because most times I run into what you are describing I find cleaning the blower compartment, evap coil (if accessible), doing a leak search and seal...replacing contactor and capacitor...brings about a new life to a system.

I can't count how many times I've heard..."never worked that good before". Some systems have done their job and time is up for them as well.

Pop the doors off your attic furnace, look into the blower compartment. If the motor looks like this -

image upload no size limit

closer -

post image online

Then your evap coil most likely looks like this -

temporary image hosting


I bring this up because some service people only think in terms of adding more refrigerant assuming a leak, when the cause of "off charge" is some form of blockage / restriction in air flo

 

[Catadj78]

Horizontal furnace...no way to change out without removing existing duct connections...and usually altering to re attach. I must stress that sometimes this is extremely difficult if the system is installed in a tight space. New coils are larger to achieve more efficiency (more surface area)...adds more difficulty (labor).

Closet or platform, no need (usually), just adapt plenum.

How old is your system? (serial number usually notes man. date). I ask because most times I run into what you are describing I find cleaning the blower compartment, evap coil (if accessible), doing a leak search and seal...replacing contactor and capacitor...brings about a new life to a system.

I can't count how many times I've heard..."never worked that good before". Some systems have done their job and time is up for them as well.

Pop the doors off your attic furnace, look into the blower compartment. If the motor looks like this -

image upload no size limit

closer -

post image online

Then your evap coil most likely looks like this -

temporary image hosting


I bring this up because some service people only think in terms of adding more refrigerant assuming a leak, when the cause of "off charge" is some form of blockage / restriction in air flo

So if there is restriction like the photos it will act is if it's low on freon? I know the guy has filled it up several times or at least acted like it. I wouldn't know the difference I guess. He has not cleaned anything from what I remember

 

[eddieK]

So if there is restriction like the photos it will act is if it's low on freon? I know the guy has filled it up several times or at least acted like it. I wouldn't know the difference I guess. He has not cleaned anything from what I remember

To some techs...YES. But those techs that do, have not looked for the source Or noticing high head pressure, burned contactor points etc. etc ...and sometimes there is a leak...cap tubes in coils are famous for this (vibration). two copper 1/8 tubes rubbing...also failed schrader valves.

 

[Catadj78]

Can't get a firm price yet. Now saying guessing 5500. That's replacing lines,outside and inside units and pan. And doesn't want to do it till the fall though.

Curious, took 2 1/2 lbs r12. What should this run me?

 

[eddieK]

Can't get a firm price yet. Now saying guessing 5500. That's replacing lines,outside and inside units and pan. And doesn't want to do it till the fall though.

Curious, took 2 1/2 lbs r12. What should this run me?

If it was r12...about $2,000.00{sarcasm}. Thats been phased out since the eighties.

R22...about $100.00 a Lb...less if he used a "drop in". Standard service rate is $125.00 an hr....here( So Cal)

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Horizontal furnace...no way to change out without removing existing duct connections...and usually altering to re attach. I must stress that sometimes this is extremely difficult if the system is installed in a tight space. New coils are larger to achieve more efficiency (more surface area)...adds more difficulty (labor).

Closet or platform, no need (usually), just adapt plenum.

How old is your system? (serial number usually notes man. date). I ask because most times I run into what you are describing I find cleaning the blower compartment, evap coil (if accessible), doing a leak search and seal...replacing contactor and capacitor...brings about a new life to a system.

I can't count how many times I've heard..."never worked that good before". Some systems have done their job and time is up for them as well.

Pop the doors off your attic furnace, look into the blower compartment. If the motor looks like this -

image upload no size limit

closer -

post image online

Then your evap coil most likely looks like this -

temporary image hosting


I bring this up because some service people only think in terms of adding more refrigerant assuming a leak, when the cause of "off charge" is some form of blockage / restriction in air flo

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

To some techs...YES. But those techs that do, have not looked for the source Or noticing high head pressure, burned contactor points etc. etc ...and sometimes there is a leak...cap tubes in coils are famous for this (vibration). two copper 1/8 tubes rubbing...also failed schrader valves.

 

[Rockhead261]

$3k in labor? That's crazy. 2 man crew X 8 hours X a generous $80/hr would only be $1280, and that would be enough time to replace the furnace too.

That's a two man job for about 4-5 hours.
and besides that the equipment is probably less that the 1600 you quoted

LOL @ the Internet estimates from people who obviously have no clue. I honestly looked at the date of those posts before replying.

I retired from the trade back in '97. A furnace/evaporator/condenser swap would take no less than 32 man/hours @ $85/hour, and that was the price in 1997. $125/hour is about right today.

I bought a dry 3.5 ton condenser 2 years ago for $1100, "friend price" from a wholesaler I knew from the day. An A coil is ~$350-500, and a gas fired furnace can cost anywhere from a grand to well over 2 G's, depending on how efficient/technical you want to get. And that's COST.

So.... let's say the equipment retails for $4500, maybe another $250 in materials, and $4K in labor... $8750 for a complete system swap. The contractor will present the estimate at $9500 and come down a few hundred if the customer balks.

OP, unless it's something really easy/accessible, a leaking R-22 system is indeed not really worth fixing, sorry.

 

[bazar01]

I replace leaky R22 evaporator coils very often on my rentals. A condenser unit lasts quite a long time. New evaporator coils are about $300-$500. Labor about 6 hours on indoor unit mounted on the first floor. Attic units, double the labor (spend more time going up and down the attic). I seldom replace condensing units. Some of my R22 recip condensing units are already 25 years old and still running.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

LOL @ the Internet estimates from people who obviously have no clue. I honestly looked at the date of those posts before replying.
I retired from the trade back in '97. A furnace/evaporator/condenser swap would take no less than 32 man/hours @ $85/hour, and that was the price in 1997. $125/hour is about right today.

I bought a dry 3.5 ton condenser 2 years ago for $1100, "friend price" from a wholesaler I knew from the day. An A coil is ~$350-500, and a gas fired furnace can cost anywhere from a grand to well over 2 G's, depending on how efficient/technical you want to get. And that's COST.

So.... let's say the equipment retails for $4500, maybe another $250 in materials, and $4K in labor... $8750 for a complete system swap. The contractor will present the estimate at $9500 and come down a few hundred if the customer balks.

OP, unless it's something really easy/accessible, a leaking R-22 system is indeed not really worth fixing, sorry.

no you didn't, your the one that has no clue, if you read my post it assumed it was up flow furnace in the basement, it was before we new it was in the attic.
and if you and another guy couldn't swap out a A coil, line set and condenser in 4-5 hrs............you wouldn't work for me very long, come on think about it you already have the 240 volt wiring the pad, the 4 wire thermostat wire.

we use to these jobs all the time we'd sit in the restaurant till 9 o'clock and be done by 2pm

also just for the record were talking about a 2.5 ton unit not 3.5 and in the beginning it was for AC only.........read the entire thread before you post.

This why I hate to post to these ac threads there's always someone trying bust yours balls and doesn't really contribute anything to the thread when your just trying to help someone that has no experience with hvac work.

by the way you paid way too much for that equipment

 

[Rockhead261]

some nonsensical dribble which I omitted

I honestly have no idea what you're ranting about. I provided some real-world figures for the OP to work with, not fantasyland hit-and-run pricing from a hack. You say I didn't check the date before posting? How do you figure?? Somehow I knew my post would be crucified by someone who deserved to be called out.

But you're right... I wouldn't work for you for long. Anyone who swaps out a split system in 4 hours is cutting corners. I like to do things right.

/out

 

[mrobins297aaa]

I honestly have no idea what you're ranting about. I provided some real-world figures for the OP to work with, not fantasyland hit-and-run pricing from a hack. You say I didn't check the date before posting? How do you figure?? Somehow I knew my post would be crucified by someone who deserved to be called out.

But you're right... I wouldn't work for you for long. Anyone who swaps out a split system in 4 hours is cutting corners. I like to do things right.

/out

read post #8 , lets compare apples to apples, basement upflow furnace compared to a attic furnace two different things.

and you can easily do one of these jobs in 4-5 hours if your prepared and have everything you need on the truck.....without being a hack.
also the hole is already threw the wall for the lineset that's another thing you don't have to do.

I'm sure there are plenty of HVAC guys on this site that would concur.

 

[Catadj78]

I replace leaky R22 evaporator coils very often on my rentals. A condenser unit lasts quite a long time. New evaporator coils are about $300-$500. Labor about 6 hours on indoor unit mounted on the first floor. Attic units, double the labor (spend more time going up and down the attic). I seldom replace condensing units. Some of my R22 recip condensing units are already 25 years old and still running.

Sounds like this is what I need. I'm not scared to spend the money but I don't want to be taken advantage of either and I do think that it may be happening in my situation.