AC outlets on a welding cart practical? Safe?

[DarkMonohue]

I'm building a welding cart - click below for a basic intro on that:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49411

My current welder, which is not likely to be replaced for several years, is a Lincoln SP-125 Plus. It runs on household current. Since it uses 120V, I'll be plugging it into a 120V socket one way or another.

The plan for the garage is to add a 20A circuit with at least a couple of 20A sockets along one wall of the garage, because I'll be adding outlets there anyway, and I've read that the welder will be happier with 20 amps than it is on 15. Whether I get around to that or not, I am a little confused as to what my options are regarding this cart.

Rather than use one extension cord from the wall to the welder and others for everything else I want to use, I would like to add a few outlets to the cart so that I can run other tools like an angle grinder, bandsaw, hand drill, etc, directly from the cart, with maybe a 50 foot extension cord from the cart to the wall. Nothing powered by the cart will be operated at the same time as the welder, and none of it will draw much current.

Do I need 20A outlets on the cart? I imagine not, but if I want to run the welder off one of the outlets on the cart, should I not get a proper 20A cord for it, and 20A outlets with 12/3 wiring to them?

I really do not want to restrict myself to only operating off a 20A circuit - I want this to be as portable as possible, meaning I really want it usable at any standard outlet. The original cord on the welder is only 14/3, and I will probably be replacing the machine's power cord with a 12/3 cord. Can I just run a simple 50 foot, 12/3 cord with a standard 15A plug from the wall to the cart?

If that's viable, it is reasonable to slice the female end off an extension cord and hard-wire it to the outlets on the cart? This seems like the easiest route to take. If it's a dumb idea, I'd really like to know before I do it.

I've read of 120V outlets actually built into a welder. More than likely what I saw was built in from the factory, but since the thing is already getting 120V household current, is it feasible and/or likely that I could open the thing up and tap into it? It would be really tidy if I could plug the cart into the welder rather than the other way around. What sort of risks am I running with an idea like this?

Finally, since this may occasionally be used outdoors (though not in a torrential downpour), do I need to worry about using GFCI outlets on the cart? How about an onboard circuit breaker? Weatherproof outlet covers? Do I need to build a watertight box around everything, or just make sure it's reasonably protected against rainfall? I try to only work outside when it's comfortable, so I'm not planning on getting really wet, but I want this to be as safe as it can reasonably be.

Many thanks for any help you can offer, and please forgive the sheer noobosity of this post. I know my way around a lot of things pretty well, but household wiring ain't one of them, and I really want this thing to be safe, and the house to be safe when I'm using it.

 

[Number22]

Well, all I can really add is that you should probably use a 10 gauge extension cord for that long. Nothing ***** the juice like a welder. It will definately like it's own 20A circuit. I have a cheap Harbor Freight welder with 120v input, conveniently it draws 22 amps even though it has a standard 15 amp cord. I replaced the cord with a 10 gauge with a twistlock end, but, I could have used a standard outlet as well. I just happen to have a big huge matching extension cord.

 

[bobabuee]

50ft is little long i would go short as i could for welder and use 10 guage wire
if going 50 ft use at least 8 or 4 guage wire i would more outlets around the shop that has 20 amp breaker for welder only welders draw to much current,
50ft would net you ****** welding shorter and decated is always better.

 

[nate379]

10 gauge is fine to 30 amps, I don't see how a 50ft cord at 22 amps would create problems, though I have never welded with a 120v welder.

The cord for my welder is either 75 or 100ft.

 

[sberry]

The 14 cord on the machine itself is fine, use a 12 or better for extensions and you do not need to fool with breakers, power tools are fine from 20A. If you are working in sloppy wet mud puddles a gfci wouldn't hurt with 2 wire tools but I wouldn't lose sleep over it. You can way over think this very easily.

 

[tfi racing]

Make yourself a good #10 extension cord and mount a good quality power bar to the cart,plug it in and you are done.

 

[mrb]

Make yourself a good #10 extension cord and mount a good quality power bar to the cart,plug it in and you are done.

I would not use a power bar....the contacts even in the 'good' ones are inferior. I would mount a couple bell boxes and use industrial grade receptacles.

 

[travisd]

One nice thing about permanently attaching the extension to the cart is that you'll never have to go looking for it when someone else borrowed it to hook up things like Christmas lights

 

[Mattlt]

One nice thing about permanently attaching the extension to the cart is that you'll never have to go looking for it when someone else borrowed it to hook up things like Christmas lights

That's why you switch things like this to twistlocks!

 

[sberry]

That's why you switch things like this to twistlocks!

That defeats the purpose of running on a marginal circuit so it has common plugs, if I wanted dedicated wire I would go to 240.

 

[DarkMonohue]

Thanks for the replies! Definitely getting somewhere here. No real consensus yet - which is kind of what I expect on an internet forum anyway - but at least several suggestions. So far we have:

1) Wire a 20A circuit in the garage and use a ten gauge cord to the cart.
2) No, use either a shorter 10 gauge cord or an 8 gauge 50 footer.
3) No, stick with the 10 gauge 50 foot cord.
4) Use 12 gauge or larger for the cart cord, don't worry about breakers, and leave the machine's 14 gauge cord in place.
5) Use a 10 gauge cord and a power bar on the cart.
6) Don't use a power bar.

You can way over think this very easily.

Guilty as charged!


So here's what I am thinking: build the 20-amp circuit in the garage, obviously. I want 50 feet of cord for mobility, and I don't do a lot of work on heavy gauge metals, so a 10-gauge cord with a standard 15A plug should be adequate. Slice two or three feet off the cord, use that to replace the machine's 14 gauge cord, and run the remainder to a box with four outlets on the cart. Now, the dumb questions:

Is "bell box" a brand reference, or a generic term for a style of box?

What's the danger, if any, of using a 15A-style plug on the cord, and/or 15A style outlets on the cart?

Are 20A plugs and outlets inherently capable of handling more current, or are they simply a different style, used to ensure that you only use a 20 amp outlet when you're using heavier equipment?

I have yet to throw even a 15A breaker...

 

[Number22]

I want 50 feet of cord for mobility, and I don't do a lot of work on heavy gauge metals, so a 10-gauge cord with a standard 15A plug should be adequate. Slice two or three feet off the cord, use that to replace the machine's 14 gauge cord, and run the remainder to a box with four outlets on the cart.

Agreed...but I don't think you need to mess with the cord on the welder itself. 14 should be fine, since I'm guessing it's less than 6 feet long. Of course a 12ga cord wouldn't hurt....

Is "bell box" a brand reference, or a generic term for a style of box?

I think he's just talking about a standard metal box.

What's the danger, if any, of using a 15A-style plug on the cord, and/or 15A style outlets on the cart?

Are 20A plugs and outlets inherently capable of handling more current, or are they simply a different style, used to ensure that you only use a 20 amp outlet when you're using heavier equipment?

You should be fine with 15 amp "style" plugs. I think the only difference is the shape for the special 20A type. I think all 15 amp outlets are required to support a 20A feed through for other outlets in the string.

For example I have plenty of 12ga extension cords that all say "15A max", since that's what the UL rating is, but I wouldn't hesitate to, and do, pull 20 from them. Even a lot of 10ga extension cords claim "15A max" just because of the type of end on the cord. Seems kind of stupid to use a 10ga cord for 15A though...

 

[jmh21586]

I'm doing the same thing. But the cart I'm using is a small shopping cart. The 110 welder fits perfectly inside. I'll mount an extension cord to the cart long enough to reach the 20A outlet on the wall.

 

[mrb]

Bell Box is a term for an outdoor type junction box.

The only difference between 15a and 20a plugs and receptacles is the blade turned sideways on the 20 which is to keep things that draw more than 15 amps from being plugged into a 15 amp circuit. The current carrying capacity of the two is the same.

No need to replace the cord on the welder. The #10 is for the distance, realistically 12 is probably fine for 50 feet.

I have #12 and #10 black rubber cord, and hubbell plugs if you need....

 

[jmh21586]

 

[Number22]

PS - while we're talking about heavy extension cords, Costco has a 100' 12ga cord with lighted ends for $26. That's like $75 anywhere else. I bought a few and cut them in half to make 50' cords. (for 13 bucks!)

 

[jmh21586]

What did the extra ends cost??

 

[Number22]

What did the extra ends cost??

I already had some, but they're only a couple bux at home depot.

 

[jmh21586]

I get shitloads of cords from work. Some very heavy guage. Some 100+ feet long. Not sure what to do with them all but I still bring them home. OSHA has cracked down in the last couple years. All cords have to have factory ends on them now. And of course the cords have to have ground plugs and no cuts or anything. So any damage and they get thrown out. So.... I end up with plenty. Could probably run cords half mile down the road and plug into the neighbors house if I wanted to.

 

[Number22]

LOL, I have sign on my barn that says "no inspectors allowed". If I wanna electrocute myself in there that's my own business!

That's stupid though, when they sell "industrial" cord ends at any hardware/electrical store. Who's using them if they aren't allowed for "industrial" use?

 

[Number22]

Another thought on extension cords, and outlets...

I have a 30A 120v twistlock outlet on the ceiling in the center of my shop, and a nice big 10ga cord that will reach to every corner of the place. I love it. Perfect for my welder.

The cord is an old RV extension cord I got free 'cause the ends were bad, cut 'em off and put on new twistlocks and I've got the best extension cord I've ever had!

 

[mrb]

cords dont have to have factory ends per OSHA. Here is the interpertation on job made extension cords http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=20709

and here is another opinion supporting the last http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=20579

 

[jmh21586]

Apparently, new ends are not crimped on ones like factory ones are.

"Industrial" might just mean their heavier duty.

 

[jmh21586]

cords dont have to have factory ends per OSHA. Here is the interpertation on job made extension cords http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=20709

The practice of assembling electrical extension cords is considered to be in compliance with OSHA standards, provided the assembled cord sets are assembled in a manner equivalent to those that are factory-assembled and approved.

I think the thing is not the end itself but the crimped or heat shrunk part just before the end that really can't be done. How would you do that with replacement ends??

In any event... my company doesn't fix cords and now I have a shitload of them.




and here is another opinion supporting the last http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=20579[/QUOTE]

 

[DarkMonohue]

Agreed...but I don't think you need to mess with the cord on the welder itself. 14 should be fine, since I'm guessing it's less than 6 feet long. Of course a 12ga cord wouldn't hurt....

I'm basing that partially on my love of overkill, and partially due to a thread found on a welding forum:
http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?p=134246#post134246

I do wonder what the value of a 10ga cord is, though, if a standard 20A house circuit is built out of 12ga wire.

Bell Box is a term for an outdoor type junction box.

Thanks for clearing that up!

The only difference between 15a and 20a plugs and receptacles is the blade turned sideways on the 20 which is to keep things that draw more than 15 amps from being plugged into a 15 amp circuit. The current carrying capacity of the two is the same.

Great. So my only real concern is someone plugging a 20A appliance into my heavily wired cart, which may be plugged into a 15A outlet somewhere. Is there any danger there other than tripping the breaker on the circuit that the cart is plugged into?

I have #12 and #10 black rubber cord, and hubbell plugs if you need....

I can't imagine they'd be cheap, or cheap to ship, but maybe we ought to talk.

...an old RV extension cord I got free 'cause the ends were bad, cut 'em off and put on new twistlocks and I've got the best extension cord I've ever had!

Something like this, for example?
http://eugene.craigslist.org/for/1473459267.html

 

[mrb]

I think the thing is not the end itself but the crimped or heat shrunk part just before the end that really can't be done. How would you do that with replacement ends??

In any event... my company doesn't fix cords and now I have a shitload of them.




and here is another opinion supporting the last http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=20579

[/QUOTE]

you are talking about the molded ends. An industrial grade plug (such as hubbell 5266) does not have a molded part. OSHA allows these (and factory assembled cords with them can be purchased).

Come to think of it, I remember something where you cannot repair a factory made cordset with a replacement plug, but can assemble them from bulk cord and connectors. I may be incorrect on this one as I cannot locate anything supporting it.

 

[Number22]

Something like this, for example?
http://eugene.craigslist.org/for/1473459267.html

Exactly.

 

[jmh21586]

Come to think of it, I remember something where you cannot repair a factory made cordset with a replacement plug, but can assemble them from bulk cord and connectors. I may be incorrect on this one as I cannot locate anything supporting it.

This makes sense because you can still make up those temporary light strands and put a store bought plug on it. The ones where they space a lightbulb every 10 feet or so.

 

[Falcon67]

This makes sense because you can still make up those temporary light strands and put a store bought plug on it. The ones where they space a lightbulb every 10 feet or so.

OT and LOL - when they built the last new building here, inside they had a bunch of those made up light strings with bulbs about every 10', strung out across the bottom of the girders. The drywall crew came along and drywalled right up and over the cords. I assume they had to just cut the wire where it went through the walls when it was time to remove the light strings. I saw cords sitting on top of walls, coming out of the middle, 3/4 up, etc. All nicely mudded in.

 

[jmh21586]

I bet I know why that happened.

If it was a union job with union electricians then I'd be willing to bet.

Union electricians are real hard asses when it comes to someone taking their work. They get pissed if you change lightbulbs on jobs like that, let alone actually take down those lights. They're premaddonnas, a lot of them.
My guess is the electricians were told to take them down and didn't for whatever reason.
So.... they rocked over them.
My bet this was a case of sweet revenge.

 

[Falcon67]

No unions around here AFAIK. Evidence is that the trades don't necessarily work together.

 

[DarkMonohue]

Thanks for the input, guys. I think we have it pretty well sorted out. I'll have some cord and parts on the way soon and will update my cart build thread with this as it occurs.