AC unit (inside and outside) not functional

[pcpro15]

While I am not cooling the garage with this setup, I am sure the concept is the same. Were having trouble with our house A/C. Any help would be appreciated

AC unit does not turn on inside or out. badge says "bryant" model # FVANF003 on the main unit in the basement. with Bryant thermostat controller, and outside unit.

some background -->

We usually have minor trouble in the winter with our heat pump not turning on where it would hum and try to kick on, and if it did it would kick back off etc. When that happened we would always swap over to emergency heat to take care of that.

Fast forward to 2 winters ago, we had two big snow storms almost back to back. We cleared out around the unit and was working. Then overnight it started the hum and non starting. We tried to swap over to "e heat", and watched the display on the thermostat. It kept resetting itself almost as if there was a short until the screen eventually went blank (took 5 or 6 resets) I called my buddy and he said to remove the panel downstairs and check the fuse, so I did. Sure enough, there was a 3amp fuse that was blown. We replaced it, and had the same trouble again.... and again until I ran out of 3amps I had on hand in hopes it would turn on. I ended up having to drive out in my truck to grab some electric heaters to stay warm for those few days. Called a tech out and he said... "well, it is working now (e heat and heat pump) and there is too much snow for me to toss some gauges on."

A/C worked fine all summer, fast forward to this winter, we apparently had it on eheat all winter (didn't find out till today). Tried to swap to a/c, and is a no-go. Both inside unit and outside unit do not turn on. Outside unit doesn't even make a hum, buzz, or anything.

I have limited knowledge in the hvac world. I am competent with a multimeter because I do basic dc wiring, and can do some electrical testing provided enough guidance.

Thanks in advance,
Greg

 

[hydramatic]

got a volt meter ?? check for voltage at thermostat 24 V dc...low on freon will cause a pres switch to cancel the unit...relay not calling the compressor...the inside fan should at least run on the fan only mode....

 

[pcpro15]

got a volt meter ?? check for voltage at thermostat 24 V dc...low on freon will cause a pres switch to cancel the unit...relay not calling the compressor...the inside fan should at least run on the fan only mode....

Measured 28vac between red and black at thermostat. I don't have gauges, so I guess that takes care of that part. And you are correct, inside fan does work when in fan only mode. It works too with eheat. I listed both inside and out non function for ac because nothing happens when we swap over to ac mode (that I can see). If low freon is the culprit, i'll have to call a tech afterall.

 

[Dkramer]

Even if you were low on freon, the indoor blower would still come on with a call for cooling. The blowing fuse thing hasn't gone away just because it isn't blowing now. You could have a shorted contactor in the out door unit that finally opened with all the fuse replacements. Could have damaged the thermostat also with all the fuse replacements. Hard to trouble shoot without seeing it. Calling the tech will be the best thing.

 

[pcpro15]

Will call a tech, I appreciate the help

 

[pcpro15]

Thought I would update you guys for anyone curious. I checked that breaker box the other day but wouldn't you know it when he shows up there is a breaker flipped for the outside unit. Turned it on and the outside unit started up and heard a sound I had never heard before. That breaker sizzled like bacon for a few seconds and then clicked off and saw a spark come from the panel. Guy pulled the panel on the outside unit and checked everything and couldn't find anything out of ordinary except he mentioned something about lockrotor or rotorlock amps or something. Put a hard start kit on (and screwed us price wise to do it) I am embarrassed to even post the price for part and install not including diagnostic. But anyway he checked the pressure and said they were perfect. He told us the hard start kit was a bandaid.... and that it was. I went out yesterday and came back early this morning to find everyone opened the windows back up. I guess at this point the solution is obvious.

3 ton unit compressor install w/ lifetime warranty for 2500 but we signed up for their service agreement (for discount and perks yesterday), so install would be 2100. I thought the hard start kit was outrageous installed, so I want an opinion about the compressor.

Also, if we did get the compressor replaced, would you still recommend the hard start kit having mentioned the problems with it turning on in the winter? Or will the hard start kit cause more harm to a properly working compressor?

 

[Steves32]

Heat pumps already have a start cap & potential relay. Are you telling me thay piggybacked a kick start on the compressor run cap too?
If they did- get another company out.

This is what you should have before they came out.

If you still have start gear like above & they added something like this to the compressor run capacitor- get someone else out there before you change out compressor.

 

[HVAC Phil]

Sometimes a hard start kit is used. It is a temp fix, usually the compressor is on it's last leg. Usually when you quote the price on a new compressor installed, most cheapskates go for the hard start kit. If the unit is more than 10yrs old, i think replacing a compressor is a waste of time and money. I would replace the whole system with something that is much more efficient with a new warranty.

 

[pcpro15]

Heat pumps already have a start cap & potential relay. Are you telling me thay piggybacked a kick start on the compressor run cap too?If they did- get another company out.

This is what you should have before they came out.

If you still have start gear like above & they added something like this to the compressor run capacitor- get someone else out there before you change out compressor.

He attached the hard start cap (your picture) and piggybacked them onto the 3 wire capacitor that was in the outside unit. I know one of the terminals wire color was yellow that he attached too if that helps.. and another one maybe blue?. I guess there were spare spade terminals on top because he slid the connectors right on. When I flipped the breaker back on after he put it in, I still heard the breaker sizzle and told him i bet it was going to pop again, but it didnt. It started that time and stayed running for a few hours constant because the house was so hot, but after it shut off, it pop'd the breaker again when it tried to restart i assume (no one was home). At this point I wish I had an amp clamp see how much the compressor is trying to pull. Is it possible that the 30 amp breaker is weak / bad?

 

[pcpro15]

New update, kept the outside unit breaker off last night and all day. Flipped it on tonight to see what would happen and to my surprise the breaker didn't pop. The breaker no longer sizzles, the compressor starts up now, but aparently now the top fan does not spin now Unit runs for about a minute, and shuts itself off.

 

[Steves32]

The 3 wire run cap is bad. It's a combo cap. One terminal is common, one is herm (compressor) and the last is fan. It runs for a few & goes off on either high pressure or thermal overload.

 

[pcpro15]

The 3 wire run cap is bad. It's a combo cap. One terminal is common, one is herm (compressor) and the last is fan. It runs for a few & goes off on either high pressure or thermal overload.

You are correct I was busy all day, and just had a chance to pull the cover. The capacitor is bulging at the top (pretty sure). From pictures it matches a bulging capacitor because the top is not flat. To seal the deal, after getting bent over on the hard start cap to begin with, after seeing that the cap isn't new sealed the deal. They will be getting a call tomorrow to come remove it.

I'm going to order a hard start cap off amazon (spp6) to have at the house ($13.50) if I ever need it, and need to find a reliable place to order a new cap to replace the bulging one.

97p9969 brings up the cap I need.

 

[Steves32]

Bulged cap is a sure sign of failure.
So- they piggybacked the kick start on that swelled up cap?
Personally- I would never use a SPP6 when there's a potential relay & start capacitor.

 

[pcpro15]

Bulged cap is a sure sign of failure.
So- they piggybacked the kick start on that swelled up cap?
Personally- I would never use a SPP6 when there's a potential relay & start capacitor.

When I watched him put it in the other day, I don't think it was bulging then, but I didn't really study it at that point. I think that happened after the fact because the top fan has alway run until later that night.

I didn't order the spp6 yet, but I sure do notice an extra "kick" when that compressor starts with it that it never used to have. If you don't mind clarifying, what do you mean when you say "theres a potential relay & start capacitor"

 

[rickairmedic]

PCpro if you had your location in your profile I could probably come close to giving you a local distributor where you could get a new cap . ( BY THE WAY DO NOT TOUCH ANY WIRES ONTOP OF THE CAPACITOR BEFORE REMOVING THE DISCONNECT AND THEN SHORTING THE TERMINALS ON THE CAPACITOR WITH A SCREWDRIVER ) . Even a bad capacitor can hold enough juice to knock you clean across the yard .


Rick

 

[pcpro15]

PCpro if you had your location in your profile I could probably come close to giving you a local distributor where you could get a new cap . ( BY THE WAY DO NOT TOUCH ANY WIRES ONTOP OF THE CAPACITOR BEFORE REMOVING THE DISCONNECT AND THEN SHORTING THE TERMINALS ON THE CAPACITOR WITH A SCREWDRIVER ) . Even a bad capacitor can hold enough juice to knock you clean across the yard .


Rick

Rick,

Thanks for the reminder, and pm sent.


Edit - Thanks again Rick for the help, and everyone else too. I appreciate it I'll update when I get my hands on a new upgraded 440v cap.

 

[pcpro15]

Rick, one more time... I just can't thank you enough for your kind gesture. It is people like you in this world who i truly admire. I wish I would have stuck around the computer a while longer this morning so I could have taken you up on your offer, but that was my foul up for not waiting to hear back from you before tracking one down. On the up side, I did track down a 45/7.5 440v capacitor and tossed it in after making up a new bracket (since this cap was larger in diameter.) It still did not want to operate with the larger capacitor, and the outside unit started to turn and hummed... and eventually tripped the breaker a few seconds later. I added the hard start cap back on, and we are back in business No hum noise, just fires right up. I couldn't have done it without you guys

Thanks for the help,
Greg

 

[HVAC Phil]

Compressor is on it's way out. Most likely won't make the summer depending how hard it is used.

 

[Dkramer]

Heat pumps already have a start cap & potential relay. Are you telling me thay piggybacked a kick start on the compressor run cap too?/QUOTE]

Not all heat pumps come with a factory installed start cap & potential relay. I didn't see any indication in the picture posted that this unit had one.

Compressor is on it's way out. Most likely won't make the summer depending how hard it is used.

I have installed soft start (spp6 or similar) on units with the same type of symptoms and had the units run for years. I would want to know what the voltage to the unit is, and what is the voltage drop when it tries to start.

 

[Ramblur]

If you can hear a breaker sizzlin,I'd say you need to pop that breaker out
and look for damage...

 

[pcpro15]

Unit went down a few hours later after posting my success, pop'd the breaker and would flip the breaker a few seconds later if i flipped it back. Bought some more goodies today, but like mentioned inevitably it looks like the compressor may finally have to be done.

On the upside, the goodies I mentioned were a new 30amp double pole square d breaker, and a fluke 322 amp clamp I swapped the breaker and after sitting all night, i just turned it back on again and measured the ac amps on the white wire. (easier availability in the panel than the black, but was told it wouldn't matter). Surprisingly RLA on the unit sticker outside is 19.2amps, but my meter shows it running at 12.73-12.84 amps (taken at 6:30 pm). I still suspect the longer it runs, the higher the amps go, so I am going to continue to monitor it every 30 minutes or so to see what happens.

Ramblur, there was no noticeable damage on the exterior of the existing breaker, but like I said I did swap it finally.

Dkramer, I am not sure how to perform the voltage test with ac. Let me see how the new breaker works out and watch my amps and go from there.

Edit checked again and was ~13.5 amps a half hour later (7pm)


Edit #2, I've measured the amps at random times since last night and have them written on paper. They stick between high 12's to high 13's (amps) during the day depending on the time measured. It just depends on the time I measure it as to where the amp draw is at, but when measuring the fluctuations are usually within a tenth of an amp or two at most. I don't want to count my chicken yet, but the new breaker seems to be doing the trick. We are at the 29 hour mark of up time.

On a side note, by how the system reacted the other day, I previously said (without verification - no amp clamp at the time) that it seemed that the unit would run fine for a few hours and then kick the breaker where it would keep re-flipping if I turned it back. I blamed it on the compressor heating up and pulling more amps. With the amp clamp I have verified that this is not the case of what I thought was happening. (and is exactly why I am not a hvac tech ) Seems weird that the breaker would hold up for a few hours, and then start acting up. Oh well, no complaints over here if that is what it needed. Time to start saving for a new AC / Heat pump unit anyway.

Thanks again guys

 

[pcpro15]

Well... that was fun while it lasted lol. Came home to find the temp 75. Thermostat makes the clicks sound like it wants to start. Breaker isn't tripped (although it did once yesterday.) Pulled the cover on the outside unit once again to find a nice surprise. This is a pressure switch correct? (see pic). When the first tech came out, both of these black wires wires were not connected to anything, and he attached them to the contactor (one on each line - the ones in the pic with the white connectors.

No one has been in the unit besides me... and haven't been back in there since I installed the new cap. To me it looks like the wire blew back through the switch. The connector is melted after arcing against some of the copper pipe, and the rubber boot is coated in black.

Can this piece be repaired by me?

 

[mpire]

I keep spare caps around.

I paid $120 for the first one from the A/C company.

Then I found the same ones online for 5 bucks.

I have extras for inside and outside.

 

[brewchief]

Well... that was fun while it lasted lol. Came home to find the temp 75. Thermostat makes the clicks sound like it wants to start. Breaker isn't tripped (although it did once yesterday.) Pulled the cover on the outside unit once again to find a nice surprise. This is a pressure switch correct? (see pic). When the first tech came out, both of these black wires wires were not connected to anything, and he attached them to the contactor (one on each line - the ones in the pic with the white connectors.

No one has been in the unit besides me... and haven't been back in there since I installed the new cap. To me it looks like the wire blew back through the switch. The connector is melted after arcing against some of the copper pipe, and the rubber boot is coated in black.

Can this piece be repaired by me?

Are you saying he connected the pressure switch leads to the contactor? If I'm seeing it right then when the switch closes it will create a dead short across the 240v feeding the compressor, no wonder it blew the switch apart. I don't think I've ever seen a pressure switch on line voltage but I'm sure they are out there.

 

[pcpro15]

Are you saying he connected the pressure switch leads to the contactor? If I'm seeing it right then when the switch closes it will create a dead short across the 240v feeding the compressor, no wonder it blew the switch apart. I don't think I've ever seen a pressure switch on line voltage but I'm sure they are out there.

To be honest, I am not completely positive. After i re-read what you said, that made sense to me and may actually be the case but don't quote me. Those two plastic connectors were disconnected when the first tech came last week, and that is where he plugged them in and has been running like this for a week. I tried to disconnect them both again and see what happens.... but nothing does. I did not trace those wires, but those are the only black skinny wires I saw on the inside so I am 99% sure those are the ones.

 

[rickairmedic]

You need to kill the power to the unit and trace those wires if they do infact go to the pressure switch then the tech screwed up royal as pressure switches are 24 Volt and should be inline with the yellow lead comming from the T stat . The other option for those 2 wires is they go to a control box from your utility company that controls the unit when it gets hot outside and everybodies AC unit is running full blast . Either way the fact that your pressure switch is fragged like that is not good at all.

Rick

 

[pcpro15]

You need to kill the power to the unit and trace those wires if they do infact go to the pressure switch then the tech screwed up royal as pressure switches are 24 Volt and should be inline with the yellow lead coming from the T stat . The other option for those 2 wires is they go to a control box from your utility company that controls the unit when it gets hot outside and everybodies AC unit is running full blast . Either way the fact that your pressure switch is fragged like that is not good at all.

Rick

Sorry for the delay Rick. I pulled the cover this morning and traced the wires and he did indeed plug them into the contactor. The other pressure switches all plug into the circuit board, but there are not extra spots so it may be extra like you said. I just hope that was not on purpose because he really was pushing for a compressor.

Even with the two leads unplugged, the thermostat clicks but the outside unit is unresponsive except for a hum from this one square part that is connected to the copper pipe (orange wires in earlier pic next to frag'd pressure switch) . Breaker is on, junction box outside has no fuses (two copper tabs). Inside unit fan still works.

If it is a simple fix, great... if not oh well. I appreciate all the help I have been given here. We are saving for a new entire system, but the money just isn't there to make it happen right now due to other financial obligations. For now we have a window unit to tide us over at night so we can sleep these few heat wave days again until the weekend when it cools back down. Once again, thanks guys for all of your help

 

[rickairmedic]

PCpro I am at a loss as to what plugging the pressure switch into the contactor did it could have fragged the contactor or any number of other things . The little buzzing box is the reversing valve for the heat pump. When it has power it will buzz a little especially when nothing else is running. The good news is it would seem that most of your 24Volt system seems to be intact . I will offer a few suggestions if you have a multi meter try testing for 240 volts on both sides of the contactor ( where the hot leads go into it from the box on the wall and on the other end where they go out ) if you have 240 volts on both sides then you have bigger problems if you dont have 240 volts on both sides do you have it going into it ? They could have possibly blown the contactor by basically refeeding 240 volts into it . Does the contactor pull in when you set the thermostat to cool if not then they most likely fragged the contactor . I would also call the company back and tell them what their " trained monkey " ( and I use the word trained lightly ) did to your unit and let them know that you either need one of their " Techs " that actually knows what he is doing to come out and figure out what the other idiot did or they need to send you a full refund and hope you dont call the BBB for fragging your unit on purpose.


Remember I can order you parts at R.E.Michels if you need them .


Rick

 

[pcpro15]

I turned everything on, checked the inlet side of the contactor, and it is getting power. I took a quick glance and said 242 I believe. There was no power on the opposite side of the contactor. I took a rubber mallet and smacked the contactor and it arched and my brother saw the top fan move for a second. I did some quick research (and may be wrong), but I read that the contactor is triggered by 24vac, so I measured the voltage (ac) from the brown and yellow wire and it has nothing. Sounds like a trigger problem, or did I measure incorrectly? I pulled the yellow wire off and measured from the connector, and then to the brown wire. I followed those wires and they go into a 4 pin plug at the top of the circuit board labeled T2, and C. I attached a picture again to show what I am working with. Nothing on the board looks damaged from the front side.

Rick, once again thanks for the kind offer. Lets see what we find first.

 

[rickairmedic]

PCpro I am running like a mad man right now but lets work on getting you some AC here . I need a wider shot of that whole side of the unit ( including where the thermostat wires come into the unit ) We are going to wire around the board to get you some AC and if it works then it may be that the board is bad .

Rick

 

[pcpro15]

PCpro I am running like a mad man right now but lets work on getting you some AC here . I need a wider shot of that whole side of the unit ( including where the thermostat wires come into the unit ) We are going to wire around the board to get you some AC and if it works then it may be that the board is bad .

Rick

Rick,

If you are busy take your time, I am in no rush. We have the window unit like I said for now that we run in the one big bed room before bed. It is 11:35pm here now so I will have to get you those pictures tomorrow morning. I can tell you from memory that the wires that come into the unit and into an open face ac junction box. Those wires are wire-nutted to the board pigtail. Let me see what I can come up with picture wise.

Thanks again for your time Rick

 

[pcpro15]

I got the pictures I decided to look around a little more and took note of how the other pressure switches are wired. The 3 sensors are in a loop (so that means the pressure switches are normally closed?) That is the only way to me it would register if it interrupted the connection... which makes it weird why the other sensor the guy plugged in to the contactor didn't short until a week later vs. instantly if the switch is normally closed. Interesting... So I test for continuity from one end of the loop to the otherside, and there is none. Now I am lost. maybe normally closed with running pressure? Who knows... besides everyone but me hahahaha.

Another thing I was thinking about was I hope the refrigerant didn't leak out of the frag'd pressure switch and that was what was keeping it from starting? I could be out in left field too so ignore if leakage is not possible Then again, I guess we'll know soon after once we get it started if it blows hot air.

Back to what you had asked me to do. There are 5 wires that are wire nutted from the thermostat and then to the board. The colors are (Red, Black, Orange, White, Yellow). I know you mentioned bypassing the board, so I am getting two short lengths of wire together, each with a female spade connector (to attach to the contactor top and bottom) in anticipation for what I think you are going to suggest.

 

[rickairmedic]

Ok I'm back for a short time this morning before I head out . The first thing we ned to do since my brain is semi fresh and you reminded me of the BLWON pressure switch is check for Freon . I know you dont have a set of guages so what we need is a small phillups or flat bladed screw driver . The two refrigerant lines comming into the unit have small caps on them . Take the small cap off of the larger line ( this is the low pressure " suction side " ) and take the screw driver and press it lightly against the schrader valve just for a second to see if you have pressure in the lines You will have to push in on the schrader valve to engage it before any pressure comes out ( do this quickly as we dont want to loose alot of refrigerant if we have any left ). Should you find that there is no refrigerant then make sure the thermostat and the breaker are off and hook things back up the way the " idiot socalled tech " left them and call the company that sent him out and start raising 10 kinds of hell ..


Ok if you have pressure the next thing we are going to do is take the yellow wire off of the contactor that comes from the board . Ok now take one of your wires you made up and find the yellow thermostat wire comming into the unit and unhook it and hook it to your made up wire and to the contactor where you took the yelllow wire loose ( this is the single yellow wire on the bottom of the contactor by the way not one of the 2 yellow wires on the right side of the contactor ) . Do all of this with the thermostat turned off and the breaker to the unit turned off . Ok once all of this is done tape off the ends of the wires you disconnected and go in and turn on the breaker and the thermostat and the unit should be running The yellow wire is the 24 volt hot signal from the thermostat for cooling . Should you run into any problems feel free to call me as it should be a fairly light day for me today .


Rick

 

[rickairmedic]

Sounds like its time to turn off the breaker and the stat and hook it back up the way " the technician " left it and call the company and start raising hell until they come out and fix what he screwed up . Make sure to tell them to send out someone who actualy knows what they are doing this time and that you dont expect to have to pay for what they screwed up " when a simple capacitor would have solved your problem in the first place it the " Tech " had a clue ".


Rick

 

[pcpro15]

Rick

I tested for freon, there is none so I guess that takes care of that. Even with complaining, I highly doubt they will admit fault with hooking the pressure switch up wrong and will insist on checking it first = more service $. They will wonder how I knew what was wrong to begin with, and will probably play the "someone else was in the unit after me" card which is understandable. After all, when they see the hard start zip tied they will know someone was in there lol. Thanks again Rick for your time. Still need to weigh if it is worth capping and recharging the unit is worth it, let alone if there is more wrong with why it won't start. Does it know that there is no charge and is protecting itself?

 

[rickairmedic]

Yes the other 2 pressure switches are a high pressure and " the one that is giving you heck now " the low pressure switch. I would tell them that after " their so called tech messed it up that you talked to a buddy of yours and sent him pics of what things looked like " and that he said their idiot screwed up .


Feel free to give them my number I will be happy to tell them to hire technicians that have a clue and to get back out there and fix your unit . I will ask as I dont know for sure if Licenses are required there . Here we have Journeymen Licenses and Masters Licenses . I carry both as I have to keep my Journeymans License in order to work out in the field even though I hold a State Masters License . I will add here if they are required there then that may be a way to get them to do something as I would bet " The Tech " they sent out doesnt have a Journeymans License and leting them know that you might sick Code enforcement on them for using unlicensed Techs might get them motivated . I get on average 3-5 calls a week from guys looking for work that have " been doing it for 10+ years that dont have Licenses .


Rick

 

[JerseyHarold]

If the system starts and runs first thing in the AM and then blows the breaker on re-start, the refrigerant pressures aren't equalizing fast enough. You may have a stuck TXV on the evaporator coil.