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Acrylic vs. Epoxy?

DORIGTT

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I've got a 650sq/ft garage that needs flooring. I'm torn between paying for acrylic (what the local contractor presented to me), epoxy by them, or getting something like the Wolverine floor kit and doing it myself (and saving $).

I get analysis paralysis trying to dig through all the posts, so what makes the most $ sense as well as durability wise?
 
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AlphaGarage

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Durability -wise? Epoxy - by a order of several magnitude.

Most $ sense? That would be a completely subjective judgment, but figure that the Wolverine epoxy system would be $985 for the coatings (approx 26 mils thick before waste), our AcryliSeal would be $225 (less than 3 mils), or $1.51/ft2 and 36¢/ft2 respectively.

As far as DIY vs. contractor - it will take time to DIY, how much depends a lot on the current condition of the concrete, but the project is certainly one that many here have completed successfully, just do a quick search and review the numerous first hand accounts. We're also getting orders from members who have moved and are putting down our system again.
 

AlphaGarage

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Which acrylics are less durable than a good epoxy? Certainly most, if not all, acrylic sealers that are on retail shelves, and commercial ones as well, and no, I can't offer any independent science to back that up. But I can say that an acrylic sealer doesn't chemically bound to the substrate, there's only a mechanical binding, also a sealer or paint is at most a few mils thick, whereas good epoxy systems start at least 10 mils thick. Now there are some high end acrylics that would out perform a poor epoxy.

I can't offer any 3rd party test to my claim that AcryliSeal 3501 is better than all those other acrylic sealers. WCC has run internal tests on AcryliSeal, but hasn't commissioned any outside independent tests, which is not to say other 3rd parties haven't run them, they have.

One huge corporation (yes, you know them - everyone does) has just completed tests and have reported that ACY is up to 12x more durable than similar priced acrylic sealers. However those results are their proprietary info, and WCC can't even license it, much less advertise the details.

It's not a major line of WCC, kind of the oddball product in their catalog, and they're not putting a lot of marketing resources into it. But that doesn't mean Alpha Garage can't aggressively market it, and we probably should, but then we don't have the $20+K to commission testing. So we don't usually even mention it, however if someone is looking for a low cost solution, and wants to avoid the measuring and mixing and curing etc, we're more than happy to offer it, and we're pretty certain you'll be happy with the results.

One objective point we can substantiate is that after quite a bit of research Trader Joe's did choose to use AcryliSeal to recoat all the floors in their retail stores. They had a variety of different coatings, and were looking for just one coating to use system wide - one quick to apply as not to disrupt business, durable, cost efficient, easy to maintain, and AcryliSeal met or exceeded their requirements. They have a couple contractors with crews traveling across the country, and haven't hit every store yet. Here are a few photos of it being applied in a Chicago area Trader Joe's...

tjchicagoalphagarage049.jpg


tjchicagoalphagarage048.jpg
 
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HIRISC

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You're painting a very broad, unscientific brush against acrylic.

Perhaps 'some' epoxy coatings (outperform - in some way) 'some' acrylics, but its quite unlikely that any epoxy outperforms pro-grade acrylic (MMA) on any empirical test of durability (scratch/lift).

FYI, there is clearly a chemical sublimation by MMA into its substrate. Epoxy does not sublimate into concrete. Bond, yes.. penetrate, no.

I'm not an epoxy hater - and there are many applications where epoxy is the best solution, but I do bristle at the attempts of some on this board to denigrate certain acrylic products.

Since you have a horse in the race, it might be best to resist the temptation to make exaggerated/unscientifically backed claims against competitive products.

People reading here are looking for facts, not bias.
 

BL50

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Who in their right mind, would want to be the applicator for MMA flooring. I would never work with it.:scared:

Would you care to elaborate? I'm one of those people who are here to learn facts and then choose for myself. I have yet to find a serious, unbiased discussion of epoxy vs. urethane vs. acrlyic/MMA ... and I keep searching.

Thanks!
 

tncatadjuster

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BL50, do you install MMA floors? If you want to have a scientific discussion, I'm not your guy. If you want to find a contractor, that is very concerned about the health of his employees, I'm your guy. This is strictly from the view point running an application crew.

MMA might be the cats meow from a chemist view, not from mine.
 
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BL50

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BL50, do you install MMA floors? If you want to have a scientific discussion, I'm not your guy. If you want to find a contractor, that is very concerned about the health of his employees, I'm your guy. This is strictly from the view point running an application crew.

MMA might be the cats meow from a chemist view, not from mine.

No, I don't install MMA floors. I'm simply one person looking for the best alternative for my new garage floor. As I said previously, I can't find any information on the pros/cons of epoxy vs. urethane vs. acrylic/MMA. I gather by your post that MMA fumes are toxic? Thanks for the information.
 

HIRISC

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BL50, do you install MMA floors? If you want to have a scientific discussion, I'm not your guy. If you want to find a contractor, that is very concerned about the health of his employees, I'm your guy. This is strictly from the view point running an application crew.

MMA might be the cats meow from a chemist view, not from mine.

Methyl methacrylate fumes are toxic while wet (for about an hour) and perhaps a bit longer as the formulation sets up.

MMA does not off-gas, is not carcinogenic in a solid state, or any other nonsense that some on here pushing competitive products would try to have readers believe.

Do your guys work w/ epoxy without respiration setups? If so, you may want to revisit your 'pro-health' procedures.
 

tncatadjuster

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Methyl methacrylate fumes are toxic while wet (for about an hour) and perhaps a bit longer as the formulation sets up.

MMA does not off-gas, is not carcinogenic in a solid state, or any other nonsense that some on here pushing competitive products would try to have readers believe.

Do your guys work w/ epoxy without respiration setups? If so, you may want to revisit your 'pro-health' procedures.

Do you install MMA floors? That might explain some things....

My procedures are fine, for the products we install thank you.
 
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AlphaGarage

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You're painting a very broad, unscientific brush against acrylic.

You’re correct – I’ve painted, or back rolled, a response with an 18” roller when I should have maybe first used a 1” cut-in to get started. But here’s why I used the broad roller cover…

First, the OP mentioned being “…torn between paying for acrylic (what the local contractor presented to me)…” I broadly assumed he was speaking of an acrylic polymer sealer. That assumption was because epoxy and MMA are often close in price but there seemed to be 2 disparate price points in what he was offered.

Second, on this forum at least MMA has not been mentioned much and when people mention acrylics, here they are usually speaking about acrylic polymer sealers. I’m not aware of any DIY here who has opted to purchase MMA monomer and work with industrial peroxides, but then there are a lot of projects and I’m not familiar with all of them. Likewise, MMA isn't nearly as popular with the Pros either.

Third, it's impossible to speak specifically to every variation of every chemistry on the market. Of course I am speaking "in general" and the subject of this thread - which I believe is commercial acrylic sealers. Methacrylate (MMA) typically referred to as Methyl Methacrylate and not 'acrylic'. It's a Monomer and I don't think that too many companies would be willing to sell it to a homeowner. Even on the specialized coating forums MMAs are seldom referred to as “acrylics.” One of the reasons may be that MMA is technically not an acrylic until it is polymerized into PMMA (Polymethyl Methacrylate) by adding initiator and heat.

Finally “Acrylic” is a VERY big word. Is it thermoset? Is it Thermoplastic? The list of questions to classify the acrylic could go on for days. Garage Journal is where a lot of DIYers, home owners, and small business operators hang out, not chemists.

So I did backroll with that broad brush because I assumed the OP was offered an acrylic, on this forum acrylic generally means “acrylic sealer” not “MMA,” and also because the subject matter pointed to a lower cost, one component, DIY oriented, easy to apply, safe, generally consumer accessible, acrylic sealers – all qualities that indicate we’re not discussing Methyl Methacrylate.

Now, a bit more about that broad brush... Just like I can't know every acrylic chemistry or product on the market, no one can know all of the epoxies either. So although one can safely state “Most epoxies do not sublimate into concrete,” claiming that “Epoxy does not sublimate into concrete…” is using that same broad brush. I am aware of products from Wolverine Coatings that are very much penetrating EPOXIES. BondTite 1501 for one - while I was at their facility I saw concrete blocks that had been cut and could clearly see BondTite primer penetration about 1" deep.

Part of the reason why our system penetrates concrete is because the 100% solids BondTite 1101 is modified with a Fluoropolymer, which lowers the surface tension. Eric has pointed out that you can make epoxies penetrate by lowering the viscosity with solvents, or by modification of the surface tension. Modification by solvent is the least desirable way. And along with Fluoropolymer Resins Wolverine Coatings Corporation also modifies with other high tech resins. I know they have some epoxies that are modified with Polysiloxane resins. So while most epoxies do not sublimate into concrete – some do.

Anyway, if I confused anyone, subliminally or otherwise, my apologies, that certainly wasn’t my objective- and that's a fact.
 

tncatadjuster

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Do you install epoxy floors? You do? That explains a few things.

Easy man, you don't know me anymore than I know you. I have made the decision to not install MMA floors and voiced my opinion about safety.

Where/why are you coming with the attitude? Your inferring something, not sure what.

Eagerly awaiting your response.
 

HIRISC

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Now, a bit more about that broad brush... Just like I can't know every acrylic chemistry or product on the market, no one can know all of the epoxies either. So although one can safely state “Most epoxies do not sublimate into concrete,” claiming that “Epoxy does not sublimate into concrete…” is using that same broad brush. I am aware of products from Wolverine Coatings that are very much penetrating EPOXIES. BondTite 1501 for one - while I was at their facility I saw concrete blocks that had been cut and could clearly see BondTite primer penetration about 1" deep.

Fair enough.. I'll re-state: 'Most epoxies don't sublimate into the substrate' &
we'll agree that you have been discussing DIY level acrylic products, rather than 'all' acrylics - regardless of their pre or post initiated state.

I gathered from the OP that the acrylic that a contractor suggested would be MMA.. In my mind, a pro flooring contractor would lean away from applying a sealer that someone could do on their own.

MMA seems to be widely misunderstood. A certain epoxy provider (that you mentioned in your post) has indicated that MMA coatings is carginogenic post-hardening, etc..

Based on your last post, I'm confident that you wouldn't make such an uneducated statement.
 
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HIRISC

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Easy man, you don't know me anymore than I know you. I have made the decision to not install MMA floors and voiced my opinion about safety.

Where/why are you coming with the attitude? Your inferring something, not sure what.

Eagerly awaiting your response.

You're right, we don't know eachother..

Your signature gives one the impression that you're either an owner or employee of aceepoxy.com. That gives you a horse in the 'discussion' we've been having.

If you don't want attitude, don't give it.... I was simply mirroring what you wrote to me.. 'Do you install MMA floors? That might explain some things....'

If you have something objective to add, then please do that.

To answer your first question, I don't install MMA flooring.. I own a property where we chose to have MMA flooring done after several weeks of research. I thought it fair to dispell some of the falsehoods regarding MMA that I've seen here.

Fair enough?
 

tncatadjuster

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So you bought something and now want to justify your purchase.

My viewpoint was from installer safety, I think I made that clear.

I could care less, who puts what floor material, where. Your bragging about a product that really does not belong in a DIY forum.

I was trying to qualify your experience and knowledge of MMA. I see now that you are the proud owner.:thumbup:

I really don't have a horse, I have motorcycles though.:)

Dispelling after one purchase?
 

HIRISC

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So you bought something and now want to justify your purchase.

My viewpoint was from installer safety, I think I made that clear.

I could care less, who puts what floor material, where. Your bragging about a product that really does not belong in a DIY forum.

I was trying to qualify your experience and knowledge of MMA. I see now that you are the proud owner.:thumbup:

I really don't have a horse, I have motorcycles though.:)

Dispelling after one purchase?

Yeah, you've found me out.. I'm trying to 'justify my purchase'. :lol:

I'm bragging about my product? Hardly. I responded to the OP's question & I feel qualified enough to weed out the obviously unscientific anti-MMA claims that some have made - again, in response to the OP's question.

Additionally, I've been here a lot longer than you.. I don't need your help telling me what I should or shouldn't post on this forum.

Lastly, you refrained from answering my question. Are you or are you not affiliated with acepoxy.com?
 

tncatadjuster

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Yeah, you've found me out.. I'm trying to 'justify my purchase'. :lol:

I'm bragging about my product? Hardly. I responded to the OP's question & I feel qualified enough to weed out the obviously unscientific anti-MMA claims that some have made - again, in response to the OP's question.

Additionally, I've been here a lot longer than you.. I don't need your help telling me what I should or shouldn't post on this forum.

Lastly, you refrained from answering my question. Are you or are you not affiliated with acepoxy.com?

The OP was about a DIY type project, scientific or not.

Seniority on a forum, you should know better.:bitchslap

I do not sell anything to the public through this board, simply lending some credibility to my opinions on epoxy flooring.

Man your wound a little tight for such a friendly place. The avatar should have clued me in.

Good luck with your attitude. PEACE OUT
 

HIRISC

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The OP was about a DIY type project, scientific or not.

Seniority on a forum, you should know better.:bitchslap

I do not sell anything to the public through this board, simply lending some credibility to my opinions on epoxy flooring.

Man your wound a little tight for such a friendly place. The avatar should have clued me in.

Good luck with your attitude. PEACE OUT

OK Mr. Out of Context.

You keep scrambling around...I'll steer clear of your biased postings henceforward.
 

mikeo1313

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hello forum... pls excuse 4 hijacking the thread but its not that old and my concern is along the same lines of the original poster.

I decided to go with concrete staining for the whole house floors & walls, both, interior & exterior.

and this "acrylic vs epoxy" thread is the only one of its kind I ran across.

I want a durable sealer for my whole house overseas I'm remodeling, walls & floors, both exterior and exterior. I plan on buying a drum to get it done. Its 300ft from the beach, and we get extremes as far as weather.

When it rains here it lasts for weeks and I've even experienced a whole month of rain (on and off) & gloom. When it gets hot and sunny, sometimes its even paired with no wind, and is usually hot all year round. Salt spray, about half of the shore has rock further out, waves hit against it and the wind brings me some decent salt spray.

I've looked into what sealer would be best but its hard to know what/who to believe. People that sell stuff & prod spec say one thing and the pros say something else.

The sealer is the only thing I'm stuck on. It seems epoxy would not work out for me since its not uv resistant. + I also read about polyaspartic not to mention this thread mentions MMA,,, Ok

I just want to get a drum of the stuff to use allover to finish. :thumbup: :beer:
 
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