Add dedicated line for refrigerator?

[Vandals909]

I purchased a used refrigerator as the wife wants an extra one in the garage. However the wall she wants to put it against does not have any outlets.

I traced the wiring in the garage and it is all 14-2 gauage wiring. The circuit for the garage at the breaker box is a 20amp breaker. It currently powers the overhead lights (2 8ft lights and 1 4ft light. I can also see a line go into the house which I believe powers a regular bulb light in the skylight in our bathroom. )

I know that with 14/2 gauage wiring the breaker needs to be changed to a 15amp. The previous owner even left the 15 amp breaker laying in the bottom of the box.

I have read that a refrigerator needs its own dedicated line? I was thinking about replacing the 20amp breaker with a tandem 15amp breaker. I can run the garage lights on one of the circuits and the refrigerator on the other circuit and run a new line from the breaker box to the wall where the refrigerator will be placed.


However, I have read that a refrigerator needs 12 gauge wiring and a 20amp circuit? Then NEC code says it is ok on a 15amp circuit if it has its own dedicated line? So I would assume 14-2 would be fine?


Maybe I'm over thinking the whole thing. I want to do the work myself and stay within code.

Current plan is to buy tandem 15amp breaker, put one circuit for the light and then run a new line to the refrigerator and install a exposed metal box. It would be a dedicated line for it.

what do you guys think?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Not sure where youre coming up with code saying 14 NM can be on a 20a breaker.

Also, no where does code call for a refrigerator to be on a dedicated circuit.

Most fridges draw no more than 5-7a.

How mich does your fridge draw(look at label inside fridge)...

Where did u read that a fridge needs #12 wire and a 20a circuit???

Lots of houses have the fridge on a shared circuit...

Not sure where youre coming up with this stuff....

 

[Vandals909]

The refrigerator per the sticker on the inside will pull at max load 6.5amps.

The manufacturer of the refrigerators recommends a dedicated circuit. Not code but manufacture recommended.

Here is a chart showing wiring gauge and AMP size for each. It shows a refrigerator on a 20amp with 12 gauge.

http://www.buildmyowncabin.com/electrical/wire-types-and-sizing.html

I have never claimed to be an electrician, but want to make sure when I do this, it is done correctly.

Thanks

 

[Vandals909]

Here is another one:

"Refrigerator - 110 - 120 volt, 60 hertz, properly grounded circuit protected by a 15 amp circuit breaker or fuse. #14 gauge house wire minimum, #12 is preferred. A separate (dedicated ) circuit serving this appliance is recommended. "


http://www.applianceaid.com/appliance-electrical-requirements.php

 

[RECox286]

If the refer is in a garage, it would need to be on a dedicated

15a circuit. Garages usually call for GFCI outlets, unless it is

dedicated to the refer. You don't want to lose whatever is in

the refer b/c of a GFCI trip.

I did not see where OP opined that 14-2 was OK for 20a bkr.

What happened, probably, is that the prev owner got dead

tired of having to reset the existing 15a bkr, and installed a

20a bkr. OP said: "15a bkr laying in bottom of box, [when

he acquired property."]

Vandal, I think your thinking is right on-track.

Uncle Bob

 

[ishiboo]

Not sure where youre coming up with code saying 14 NM can be on a 20a breaker.

He didn't, he said just hte opposite:

I know that with 14/2 gauage wiring the breaker needs to be changed to a 15amp.

Also, no where does code call for a refrigerator to be on a dedicated circuit.

Most fridges draw no more than 5-7a.

How mich does your fridge draw(look at label inside fridge)...

Where did u read that a fridge needs #12 wire and a 20a circuit???

Lots of houses have the fridge on a shared circuit...

Not sure where youre coming up with this stuff....

Agreed.

 

[Vandals909]

If I replace the current 20 amp breaker with a tandem 15amp and run a dedicated line from one of the circuits to the outlet for the refrigerator,would it be a waste of money running 12-2 since it is on a 15amp circuit anyway?

I'm sure bigger wire on a smaller circuit is ok, just note sure it would help at all.

Appreciate all the help guys.

 

[CNGsaves]

Run the new wire but make it 12 gauge. Never know what might happen in future and besides most kitchen circuits are always 20 amp. If you've got 15 amp breaker, just use if for now while circuit is "dedicated" for the frig. Later you may add other stuff to circuit and be forced to bump the breaker up to 20 amp.

Plan ahead . . . . . and Do It Right !!

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Not sure where youre coming up with code saying 14 NM can be on a 20a breaker.

Also, no where does code call for a refrigerator to be on a dedicated circuit.

Most fridges draw no more than 5-7a.

How mich does your fridge draw(look at label inside fridge)...

Where did u read that a fridge needs #12 wire and a 20a circuit???

Lots of houses have the fridge on a shared circuit...

Not sure where youre coming up with this stuff....

Im guessing hes thinking about small appliance circuits/kitchen circuits being 20a,no need for it to be on its own circuit unless youre really worried about it though.

 

[Vandals909]

Not really "worried" just want to be able to wire in the new outlet and forget about it. Want it done right the first time. It seems easier to run a dedicated line from tandem breaker to new outlet.

The easiest way would be to get power from the wall right next to where we want o place the refrigerator. Problem is, it is at the end of a run with powers about 5 lights in total and is currently on a 20amp breaker which is to much for the 14-2 that supplies power to all of the lights.

 

[JohnX14]

If you are going to bother doing it, run a 12/2. If you have a 15 amp tandem, move another 15 amp circuit to the tandem and then you will have an open spot for the 20. Or buy a 15/20 tandem - they make them.

 

[pattenp]

If the refer is in a garage, it would need to be on a dedicated

15a circuit. Garages usually call for GFCI outlets, unless it is

dedicated to the refer. You don't want to lose whatever is in

the refer b/c of a GFCI trip.




Uncle Bob

There is no such exception in code. All outlets in a garage are to be GFCI protected.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Manufacturer recommended is different than PMI- per manufacturers instructions...

He didn't, he said just the opposite:

I was in a hurry and misread what he said

 

[sourdough]

If the refer is in a garage, it would need to be on a dedicated 15a circuit. Garages usually call for GFCI outlets, unless it is dedicated to the refer. You don't want to lose whatever is in the refer b/c of a GFCI trip.
Uncle Bob

My 14' chest freezer has been in the garage on a GFCI for almost 3 years with no problems. The only other thing on that circuit is the battery charger for the standby genset.

If the GFCI trips, I have a problem, directly concerning the refer or the battery charger grounding problems.

Please explain why I should be experiencing possible problems other than I have outlined.

You guys are good and I have no problem with corrections to my mindset...

 

[sourdough]

There is no such exception in code. All outlets in a garage are to be GFCI protected.

I call BS on that in WA State. I had a modular triple-wide installed on our property in 2007 and it passed all inspections. We have one GFCI in the garage and 3 receptacles and all lights on 2 non-GFCI circuits.

How do you figure that?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

GFCIs have issues with refers because Usually its a defrost bulb that broke inside the freezer that shorts to ground when in defrost mode....

I call BS on that in WA State. I had a modular triple-wide installed on our property in 2007 and it passed all inspections. We have one GFCI in the garage and 3 receptacles and all lights on 2 non-GFCI circuits.

How do you figure that?

Mobile homes are a different breed!

 

[Beemer533]

There is no such exception in code. All outlets in a garage are to be GFCI protected.

Isn't there an exception to this for overhead outlets, like those used for GDO, or lights? Just curious.

 

[pattenp]

I call BS on that in WA State. I had a modular triple-wide installed on our property in 2007 and it passed all inspections. We have one GFCI in the garage and 3 receptacles and all lights on 2 non-GFCI circuits.

How do you figure that?

Isn't there an exception to this for overhead outlets, like those used for GDO, or lights? Just curious.

NEC 210.8 requires all outlets in a garage to be GFCI protected. Exceptions apply to deicing equipment, burglar alarms and some other special uses. There are no exceptions for refrigerators or outlets on the ceiling for GDO's. I know this code requirement has been effect since the 2011 NEC, I don't recall prior to that.

 

[eljefino]

If you run 12 ga wiring for something like a fridge you might in a few hundred years see energy savings from less line losses. Same with it being dedicated.

If "it was always here" it meets code at the time it "became here", whenever that was. You'd want wire dated "back then" if you're expecting a stickler looking over your work. So you could, for example, run an all new GFI circuit for the rest of your garage outlets, a pretty good idea even, leaving the old circuit in place for the fridge, though it'd be the slightly less desirable 14 ga.

You could consider preserving one light on the fridge line... maybe a 13 watt CFL... so if you blow your general lighting plus outlet circuit you aren't in total darkness.

 

[TractorJeff]

If the circuit has a 20amp on it, then it was nuisance tripping on the previous owner. The 15amp in the bottom of the box is the left over from his Solution!
As far as the Fridge, not being a centrally located(kitchen), you will never know when it is DEAD as it will not receive regular visits! Put in a 15amp breaker, put 12-2 on it, run to Fridge, use regular outlet.
So what if it is a Code Violation, when you go to sell or you die and your family sells, then change the Outlet!
People drive with no seat belts, roll through stop signs, talk/text while driving, these are ALL examples of Violations to Health and Safety, BUT they do it anyways!

 

[Arps]

We had the same issue with a fridge in the garage. Bought a heavy duty extension cord. 5 years later still working ok.

 

[Vandals909]

Can my current breaker box accept the tandem 15/20 legally? I believe it to be a 24 circuit box from the diagram in my first post. Here is one of the actual breakers

 

[wyliesdiesels]

First, in answer to your question, yes u can use tandems.

Panel is a 12/24- 12 spaces, 24 circuits. If u look @ the diagram, it shows tandems(2 circuits coming off one phase- the dot with 2 lines). Make sure u get a breaker that is listed for the panel.

Second, can u take a better pic with more lighting?

I see a number of issues with breakers.

Its a sylvania panel and i see a number of breakers that arent listed for that panel including what looks like a GE at the top and a bryant, IIRCC, isnt list for that.

I may be wrong on the bryant.

Its hard to keep track of all the listed breakers for the older panels

Norcal can let u know for sure.

Also, u can check the panel label for a list of the listed breaker model for your panel.

 

[Vandals909]

I found this post by NORCAL in another forum, I assume it is the same person you are talking about.


norcal
norcal is offline Senior Member

Join Date
May 2003
Posts
713

GTE bought Zinsco Electrical Products ( Los Angeles gift to the electrical industry), which they renamed as Sylvania, which later was sold & became Challenger, Westinghouse later bought them & when Westinghouse sold their industrial divisions, Eaton bought the electrical div., & merged it into their Cutler-Hammer line, the Challenger brand & the Westinghouse safety switch line was sold to T&B after that things got rather murky.

In terms of GE breakers fitting Zinsco/Sylvania panels a Challenger bolt-on breaker will fit a GE panelboard, & have seen a GE TED in a Sylvania switchboard where all the other breakers were FPE* (OEM ), I doubt they were ever subjected to any inspection or were listed /classified for the purpose.

FPE breakers were used in Zinsco / Sylvania equipment where the voltage exceeded 240V or was larger then 225A, after Westinghouse took over they rebranded Westinghouse breakers as Challenger in most cases.



********after reading this I'm a little confused. I see the main breaker in my box is a Challenger. So should I use a Challenger Tandem as the replacement for the current 20amp breaker that needs to be replaced?

 

[Vandals909]

In searching for a breaker. I came across this page. Not sure if the panel I have is one that needs to be replaced? Appears there is a fire issue with certain panels.

http://www.brubakerinc.com/tip-article/challenger-electric-panel-fire/#.VJCnH3vw70M

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The panels with fire issues Im aware of are the FPE- Federal pacific electric, panels.

I have had issues with Zinsco panels as well and have seen a few burned up challenger breakers.

I know theres some zinsco style challenger and sylvania breakers that have issues. Not sure about the panels.

What with all the acquisitions over the years its hard to follow!

Yes that sounds like the same Norcal.

He posted info like that regarding other panel brands on this forum a few months back.

I dont know how he memorizes the info but he does. I get lost trying to remember it all.

The label on your panel should list what is "listed" for use in your panel...

 

[Vandals909]

The panel says "use Sylvania circuit breaker type A, C and HAGF."

If there are issues with Sylvania branded circuit breakers why should I buy them?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Because its whats listed for your panel. Both code wise and safety wise. The thing is those breakers arent made anymore. So it will be hard to find them. There may be a classified breaker that will work.

I will try and get Norcal to join in on your thread. He knows the details on the brands better than i do!!

I dont think all versions of the sylvania panels had issues. As i said, I think it was just the Zinsco style ones!

 

[Vandals909]

I really appreciate the help!!

 

[afbrian13]

I just rewired my kitchen during renovation. I could have rearranged things and stuck with how it was built in 68, but I rewired all of it. Kitchens need 2 seperate 20a for outlets, seperate microwave, dish and disposal can share, and you can run the fridge off an outlet circuit, but i ran a different line anyway. My whole house originally was 12/2 aluminum. The PO had 20a breakers on 14/2 copper, double tapped 15a breakers, all kinds of nasty. New CB panel now. I found a 30 spot 60 circuit box so I can put tandems anywhere, but a normal 12/24, the tandems are supposed to be grouped at the bottom.
I know I didnt really need a dedicated fridge circuit, but while I was at it....
I dont see any reason to run 14ga anywhere in my house. Even my 15a circuits are 12/2 now. I need to rewire the garage next. Im putting lights on 1 20a, 2 seperate 20a for outlets. The easy gfci solution is a gfci breaker, but they cost a bit.

For the wiring it doesnt cost much more to go 12/2, and the effort is about the same. I like overkill on most things, but I'm an electrician and its my house to live in....my 2cents.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I just rewired my kitchen during renovation. I could have rearranged things and stuck with how it was built in 68, but I rewired all of it. Kitchens need 2 seperate 20a for outlets, seperate microwave, dish and disposal can share, and you can run the fridge off an outlet circuit, but i ran a different line anyway. My whole house originally was 12/2 aluminum. The PO had 20a breakers on 14/2 copper, double tapped 15a breakers, all kinds of nasty. New CB panel now. I found a 30 spot 60 circuit box so I can put tandems anywhere, but a normal 12/24, the tandems are supposed to be grouped at the bottom.
I know I didnt really need a dedicated fridge circuit, but while I was at it....
I dont see any reason to run 14ga anywhere in my house. Even my 15a circuits are 12/2 now. I need to rewire the garage next. Im putting lights on 1 20a, 2 seperate 20a for outlets. The easy gfci solution is a gfci breaker, but they cost a bit.

For the wiring it doesnt cost much more to go 12/2, and the effort is about the same. I like overkill on most things, but I'm an electrician and its my house to live in....my 2cents.

Man what a nasty mess. Especially the AL. Had a customer who had just purchased a house and were bummed to find out that all the branch circuit wiring was AL!

I like a dedicated line to a fridge that way the motor doesnt suffer from voltage drop due to being on a shared circuit.

 

[Vandals909]

I have sent a PM to NORCAL. I hope he see's it soon. I would like to run the dedicated line and get a new 15/20 tandem breaker this weekend. Not sure which brand to use and where to get one.

This is going to sound stupid but just want to make sure. On a 15/20 tandem. The 15 could blow the breaker and the 20 running the refrigerator will stay on correct? Thanks

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I sent Norcal a PM as well.

That is correct as long as the 2 breakers are independent and the entire assembly only connects to one buss! The reason i say this is because there are quad breakers that pull power from both busses/hot legs...

 

[6speed]

I purchased a used refrigerator as the wife wants an extra one in the garage. However the wall she wants to put it against does not have any outlets.

I traced the wiring in the garage and it is all 14-2 gauage wiring. The circuit for the garage at the breaker box is a 20amp breaker. It currently powers the overhead lights (2 8ft lights and 1 4ft light. I can also see a line go into the house...

Is your garage detached from your house where your main panel is?

If so, you're not allowed to run more than one branch circuit to detached structures.

 

[Vandals909]

The garage is attached to the home. The panel is on the outside of the garage wall.

 

[Norcal]

Eaton sells UL classified breakers for Challenger panels, OEM UL listed breakers are not available since Challenger is no longer around.


www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@electrical/documents/content/sa00304001e.pdf

Edit: I did not look closely at that link, & I find it to be useless, but there used to a list of breakers that were kosher to use in Challenger panels, but the BR frame breakers from Eaton/Cutler-Hammer were fine for a Challenger.

edit #2: http://forums.mikeholt.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9044&d=1378300602

Not sure if it will open for you, it does open for me.


Edit#3

http://www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?Idc...sed&Rendition=Primary&&dDocName=1081453631966

 

[Vandals909]

Thank you NORCAL. Then I believe this is the Breaker I need. 15/20 with independent trip?


http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-Ty...-Pole-Duplex-Circuit-Breaker-BR1520/100174644

Right?

This should fit in my panel and be approved for use?

again thanks to all of you guys for the help!

 

[Norcal]

Thank you NORCAL. Then I believe this is the Breaker I need. 15/20 with independent trip?


http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-Ty...-Pole-Duplex-Circuit-Breaker-BR1520/100174644

Right?

This should fit in my panel and be approved for use?

again thanks to all of you guys for the help!

According to the link in my prev post in edit #3 it is fine.

 

[Vandals909]

Thanks again NORCAL.

In reading the product over view do I need to worry about any of these things

BR Duplex circuit breakers have Independent Trip
BR Duplex circuit breakers do not have the rejection tab feature
BR Duplex circuit breakers are a replacement breaker for enclosures manufactured prior to 1968 with un-notched stabs
BR Duplex circuit breakers are non-current limiting


For example non-current limiting? or Enclosures manufactured prior to 1968? My panel was from around 1984

 

[Norcal]

Thanks again NORCAL.

In reading the product over view do I need to worry about any of these things

BR Duplex circuit breakers have Independent Trip
BR Duplex circuit breakers do not have the rejection tab feature
BR Duplex circuit breakers are a replacement breaker for enclosures manufactured prior to 1968 with un-notched stabs
BR Duplex circuit breakers are non-current limiting


For example non-current limiting? or Enclosures manufactured prior to 1968? My panel was from around 1984

Avoid the non-CTL BR breakers they are not suitable for your panel & cost more, pre-1968 panels did not have notched bus stabs, non-CTL breakers are made for them. The notches limit the number of twin breakers in a load center.