Adding 60 Amp Circuit To This....

[freudianfloyd]

The picture below is the subpanel in my attached garage (im fully aware it is ugly and you pros are looking at it in horror). It is currently wired into my main panel via a 60 Amp breaker. The only things running off of this subpanel are my air compressor, drill press, a heater, and one single 110v outlet. None of which get used together very often.

The problem I am having is I need a 60 Amp circuit in my garage for the new Inverter TIG welder I just got. So my question is, without going to a bigger subpanel, or running a second set of wires to the main house panel, how can I split off of this and add an outlet to plug in my welder?

Since the subpanel is already on a 60 Amp breaker, is there a way to tie into the main leads and wire them directly to an outlet? I would never need to run all the equipment at the same time, so I dont think overloading the main breaker will be a concern, but I'm no expert (obviously).

 

[BillK]

What size are the wires feeding the panel ? I cant make it out anywhere in the picture. How far is this panel from the main panel ?

 

[alfredeneuman]

A subpanel must have the neutrals and grounds separated and on different bus bars.
This one doesn't

 

[freudianfloyd]

A subpanel must have the neutrals and grounds separated and on different bus bars.
This one doesn't

Please explain how you would do that on this subpanel that only has one bus bar and only 3 leads and no separate ground on the supply line?

 

[freudianfloyd]

What size are the wires feeding the panel ? I cant make it out anywhere in the picture. How far is this panel from the main panel ?

I believe it is 4 AWG.

 

[woodscaper]

If the feeder wires are big enough, add another bus bar correct for the panel, split off the neutral (you only have one) and the grounds. You may have to ditch those full size 20 amp breakers and get some compact breakers to fit with the full size 60. It looks like you could put a 20 amp s.p. on the left side?

 

[Norcal]

That whole panel is a mess, the services of a qualified electrician are needed there.

 

[dcg9381]

It's a mess, yes, but add a ground bar and everything is there to make it a non-mess. Feeders are AL, check their size - assuming the feed breaker is right (60A) - sure, you can add another 60A breaker. I'm surprised a TIG uses that much power, but I don't have one.

 

[sparky 1971]

Please explain how you would do that on this subpanel that only has one bus bar and only 3 leads and no separate ground on the supply line?

You buy a separate ground bar and screw it to the panel. If there is EMT conduit running between the two panels the entire length, that is your ground. If the pipe isn't continuous, you need to add a ground wire and should probably just start over.

As far as the 60 amp circuit, the cheapest route is going to be get another, larger panel. It won't be hard to change since it's surface mounted. The conduits leaving the panel will probably have to get removed and shortened up a little, but that's not too hard either.

If the aluminum wire feeding the panel is #2, and that's what it looks like to me, you can put it on up to a 90 amp breaker in the main panel. But I wouldn't bother with that until I was sure the existing 60 in the main panel wasn't going to work.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

Please explain how you would do that on this subpanel that only has one bus bar and only 3 leads and no separate ground on the supply line?

Call a licensed electrical contractor and he can explain what is wrong……. Be prepared for a new feeder and panel.

This is a hazardous electrical installation that was done by a "hack" and needs to be addressed ASAP.

Below is a illustration of a properly wired sub panel as per code.…… And don’t forget the ground rod at the garage.

 

[mark-NJ]

Yes, that panel needs help....or replacement. (I'm not a fan of tandems...)

But I'm taken by the idea that a TIG machine needs 60A. My TIG/Stick machine is a 185A unit and I'm running it....problem free...on a 240V 20A circuit. Sure, the unit came with the same 50A plug that they all do, but the actual specs show a continuous current of <20A.

Maybe you need more...but 60A? Do you really need that big of a branch circuit?

 

[Innovate1]

Call a licensed electrical contractor and he can explain what is wrong……. Be prepared for a new feeder and panel.

This is a hazardous electrical installation that was done by a "hack" and needs to be addressed ASAP.

Below is a illustration of a properly wired sub panel as per code.…… And don’t forget the ground rod at the garage.

First post states ATTACHED garage. No ground rod needed.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

First post states ATTACHED garage. No ground rod needed.

Thanks, Good catch! I missed the "attached" part.….. So no ground rod needed.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The picture below is the subpanel in my attached garage (im fully aware it is ugly and you pros are looking at it in horror). It is currently wired into my main panel via a 60 Amp breaker. The only things running off of this subpanel are my air compressor, drill press, a heater, and one single 110v outlet. None of which get used together very often.

The problem I am having is I need a 60 Amp circuit in my garage for the new Inverter TIG welder I just got. So my question is, without going to a bigger subpanel, or running a second set of wires to the main house panel, how can I split off of this and add an outlet to plug in my welder?

Since the subpanel is already on a 60 Amp breaker, is there a way to tie into the main leads and wire them directly to an outlet? I would never need to run all the equipment at the same time, so I dont think overloading the main breaker will be a concern, but I'm no expert (obviously).

what brand of panel is that? what brand of breakers are those twins?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Please explain how you would do that on this subpanel that only has one bus bar and only 3 leads and no separate ground on the supply line?

you would add a ground bar and either pull a green EGC or if the conduit is continuous metal from panel to panel, then you dont need an EGC as the conduit is the EGC

either way its required. you cannot have a 3-wire 120/240v sub in an attached structure. this needs to be fixed

 

[yatg]

The Challenger breakers are a nice touch.

 

[Skooterj]

Depending on when (and where) the panel was installed, a 3 wire subpanel used to be allowed by code.

Upgrading the service to 90 AMP is going to require a new 90 AMP breaker in the main panel, and running 3 new 2 AWG wires from the main to the subpanel. You can reuse and re-label with green tape one of the existing wires as your new ground. But the two hots and one neutral need to be upsized. Adding a 60 AMP line for you welder is going to require a new subpanel since it looks like your current panel is full.

 

[exranger06]

If you're willing to eliminate the 120V outlet and have this panel be a "240V ONLY" panel, then I see no reason you can't leave the feeder as-is and not bother running another wire to the main panel. Just make sure that neutral/ground bar is bonded to the panel enclosure. I bet that's the reason it was originally wired this way (the big green wire indicates it was intended to be a ground wire, not a neutral).

 

[Norcal]

what brand of panel is that? what brand of breakers are those twins?

"Zinsco II" AKA Eaton BR. & the twins are Challenger, which may not be a big deal since Eaton BR is listed for Challenger.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Depending on when (and where) the panel was installed, a 3 wire subpanel used to be allowed by code.

Upgrading the service to 90 AMP is going to require a new 90 AMP breaker in the main panel, and running 3 new 2 AWG wires from the main to the subpanel. You can reuse and re-label with green tape one of the existing wires as your new ground. But the two hots and one neutral need to be upsized. Adding a 60 AMP line for you welder is going to require a new subpanel since it looks like your current panel is full.

negative. not in an ATTACHED structure like what the OP has. that was only allowed in DETACHED structures up until 2008 code cycle.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If you're willing to eliminate the 120V outlet and have this panel be a "240V ONLY" panel, then I see no reason you can't leave the feeder as-is and not bother running another wire to the main panel. Just make sure that neutral/ground bar is bonded to the panel enclosure. I bet that's the reason it was originally wired this way (the big green wire indicates it was intended to be a ground wire, not a neutral).

no he cant do that. its in an ATTACHED garage. code never allowed bonded subs in an attached garage

 

[exranger06]

no he cant do that. its in an ATTACHED garage. code never allowed bonded subs in an attached garage

You can't have a bonded NEUTRAL in an attached garage. A ground bar is supposed to ALWAYS be bonded. I'm suggesting he use the existing large green wire as a ground (it is green, after all...or is it? I'm slightly colorblind), forget about running a neutral wire to the panel altogether (which is why I said to eliminate the 120V outlet and use this as a "240V only" panel) and use the existing neutral bar as a ground bar, which would REQUIRE it to be bonded. (It would no longer be a neutral bar; it would be used strictly for ground wires)

 

[yatg]

"Zinsco II" AKA Eaton BR. & the twins are Challenger, which may not be a big deal since Eaton BR is listed for Challenger.

Sure, you can put BR in a Challenger panel.
Don't think Challenger breakers are technically OK to put in a newer panel.

 

[freudianfloyd]

Thank you all for your help. I dont know when this was installed, it was there when I moved in and I haven't done anything with it except plug my stuff in.

I do know that the main panel is literally on the opposite side of this wall, so the feeder is probably less than 6' long if that makes any difference.

For the time being, I may just run a new circuit from the main breaker box on the opposite side of this wall directly to a dedicated outlet. Hopefully that is allowed.

 

[freudianfloyd]

If you're willing to eliminate the 120V outlet and have this panel be a "240V ONLY" panel, then I see no reason you can't leave the feeder as-is and not bother running another wire to the main panel. Just make sure that neutral/ground bar is bonded to the panel enclosure. I bet that's the reason it was originally wired this way (the big green wire indicates it was intended to be a ground wire, not a neutral).

That's not a bad idea.

 

[freudianfloyd]

Yes, that panel needs help....or replacement. (I'm not a fan of tandems...)

But I'm taken by the idea that a TIG machine needs 60A. My TIG/Stick machine is a 185A unit and I'm running it....problem free...on a 240V 20A circuit. Sure, the unit came with the same 50A plug that they all do, but the actual specs show a continuous current of <20A.

Maybe you need more...but 60A? Do you really need that big of a branch circuit?

Here is the wiring spec from the back of the welder. You tell me.

It looks like 50 amps is all thats required, the manual said 60.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

You can't have a bonded NEUTRAL in an attached garage. A ground bar is supposed to ALWAYS be bonded. I'm suggesting he use the existing large green wire as a ground (it is green, after all...or is it? I'm slightly colorblind), forget about running a neutral wire to the panel altogether (which is why I said to eliminate the 120V outlet and use this as a "240V only" panel) and use the existing neutral bar as a ground bar, which would REQUIRE it to be bonded. (It would no longer be a neutral bar; it would be used strictly for ground wires)

What green wire are you talking about? I only see 2 blacks and a discolored white/yellow.

 

[freudianfloyd]

What green wire are you talking about? I only see 2 blacks and a discolored white/yellow.

Yes, there is no green wire, just an old white wire and two blacks.

 

[mark-NJ]

Ahhhh "new" to you. That's an old unit...

If I'm reading that faceplate data correctly, It would appear that, at 240 (i.e. 230), you'll draw 28 - 33 A to get you 160A of TIG output. It may have a 60A main breaker, but I certainly don't see the need for a 60A circuit.

IGBT switching technology has come a log way since the mid-'90s. My TIG machine delivers 185A (DC or AC), yet draws only 17A on a 240V circuit.

 

[freudianfloyd]

Ahhhh "new" to you. That's an old unit...

If I'm reading that faceplate data correctly, It would appear that, at 240 (i.e. 230), you'll draw 28 - 33 A to get you 160A of TIG output. It may have a 60A main breaker, but I certainly don't see the need for a 60A circuit.

IGBT switching technology has come a log way since the mid-'90s. My TIG machine delivers 185A (DC or AC), yet draws only 17A on a 240V circuit.

I bet your machine wasn't $200 either. I havent been a paid welder for years, so it won't see a bunch of use, but I still miss TIG welding from time to time.

 

[mark-NJ]

Well, yeah...there is THAT!

Re-reading the data plaque, at 60% duty, you can conjure up 210A TIG for the cost of 43A out of the wall. I suppose if you want to push it that hard, a 50A branch circuit would be good, but do you plan on TIGing at 210A?

 

[Jim greengo]

Please explain how you would do that on this subpanel that only has one bus bar and only 3 leads and no separate ground on the supply line?

Add an extra buss bar for the ground.

 

[BillK]

Thank you all for your help. I dont know when this was installed, it was there when I moved in and I haven't done anything with it except plug my stuff in.

I do know that the main panel is literally on the opposite side of this wall, so the feeder is probably less than 6' long if that makes any difference.

For the time being, I may just run a new circuit from the main breaker box on the opposite side of this wall directly to a dedicated outlet. Hopefully that is allowed.

If that is the case I would replace the sub panel with a better one and replace the feed and do it properly. Probably wont cost you much more that running the new circuit just for the welder. Plus that way you can neaten it up and add the ground so it will all be in compliance. Cant tell for sure but it looks like the pipe feeding the panel is large enough for larger wires.

 

[theoldwizard1]

The short answer is, replace the panel, which means bring the installation up to current code (you need a separate ground from the main). Depending on the size of the wire you may be able to upgrade the breaker in the main panel.

Read this !

Explain the white and red wires going into the tandem breakers on the left hand side !

 

[rooster59]

Your manual will state what size of fuse / breaker you need. Prob 50A w/6G wire will be more than enough. Near a welder outlet you always want 120v outlets for grinders, drills, etc. I would find a bigger subpanel. Ground and neutral are going to be separate.

 

[BillK]

The short answer is, replace the panel, which means bring the installation up to current code (you need a separate ground from the main). Depending on the size of the wire you may be able to upgrade the breaker in the main panel.

Read this !

Explain the white and red wires going into the tandem breakers on the left hand side !

The white wire on the upper one has a piece of black tape around it which I figured was to identify it as a "black" wire ?

Not sure if there is a problem with Red being used for one of the hots on the bottom ?

 

[Innovate1]

The white wire on the upper one has a piece of black tape around it which I figured was to identify it as a "black" wire ?

Not sure if there is a problem with Red being used for one of the hots on the bottom ?

Red for a hot wire is quite common for 240V circuits and is fine.

Since the main panel is close and these panels are not looked at favorably (based on comments on this board) I would be looking at replacing the panel with something a little larger and redoing the feed wires. That will give you a circuit for the welder and some room to add other things. And would eliminate the grounding issues.

 

[KenC]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned 630-11 which specs wire size vs overcurrent sizing for welders. It's amazing how small the wire needs to be in a low duty cycle environment.

 

[yatg]

Explain the white and red wires going into the tandem breakers on the left hand side !

Those aren't tandem breakers, they are double pole breakers that pick up two bus bars from the side instead of a center stab. Note that they are 1/2 space off from the full size breakers on the right.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Those aren't tandem breakers, they are double pole breakers that pick up two bus bars from the side instead of a center stab. Note that they are 1/2 space off from the full size breakers on the right.

Only GE has half width double pole breakers like that which is why he thought they were twins.

If they are indeed GE and that panel is not GE then those dont even belong in there and im surprised they got them to fit as the stabs are different