Adding a circuit the electrician "forgot"

[dcg9381]

So we've got a utility room off the garage. It has a vent fan that "never worked". I didn't make too big a stink out of it at the time, I just assumed the fan was bad.
Well, finally got around to having a look.
Pulled the fan cover, manually powered up the fan. Worked fine.


Next went to the switch. Not the worst thing I've seen, but not exactly inspiring confidence.. Apparently copper wire, is copper wire, never mind color codes. Tested all that out. Power to the switch, power from the switch.



Dropped the fan, housing is hard-attached to ceiling framing, so the "box" is not coming out. The problem is immediately obvious and probably "worst case". It wasn't wired. Likely the wire is up there "somewhere", now totally covered in foam insulation.



So somehow I've got a "live" circuit to no-where. Not great. Now I take a look at the framing photos, can't find one where I captured the wiring, but I can see the direction and confirm the joist orientation:


I really dont want to have to re-drywall most of this utility room, so what I'm thinking about doing:

1) Remove the fan switch, plate it, cap the hot.
2) Start drilling 9" holes in the ceiling, between the joists, and cut over the circuit from the interior light to the exhaust fan, cover them up with "access plates":




3) Add a "timer switch" to the fan/light combo....


Thoughts? Other than "find a new electrican" ?

 

[larry4406]

Ugh.

I think I would bite the bullet and fish in/find the switch leg that was not tied into the fan and repair. Couple of strategic holes and not too hateful.

If you want to slave it off the ceiling light, that is an option. The old switch instead of blanking maybe convert it to a receptacle.

If slaving off the light, use a hole saw maybe 4-5” diameter with short pilot. Remove pilot once started on the drywall which will guide it. Cut a drywall plug centered on each joist. Chisel foam out and fish wire. Screw the drywall plugs back to the joist and minor repair.

 

[dcg9381]

I think I would bite the bullet and fish in/find the switch leg that was not tied into the fan and repair. Couple of strategic holes and not too hateful.

First hole will be next to the fan box, if I can find the wire, that will solve a lot of problems. But I'm going to assume I won't find it.

If slaving off the light, use a hole saw maybe 4-5” diameter with short pilot. Cut a drywall plug centered on each joist. Chisel foam out and fish wire. Screw the drywall plugs back to the joist and minor repair.

Why cut the plug centered on the joist? I get it if I was going to re-finish the drywall 100%, but if I center the hole on the joist, I've got 1/2 diameter access to either side of the joist... One hole (potentially) instead of two, but I'm going to have to drill that joist to bring a wire over from the light to the fan box...

 

[larry4406]

At the day job, it’s not uncommon for a fart fan housing to be missing at hvac rough.

Later it gets punched out and by then the electrician may have just left a hang wire for the hvac tech to connect. Tech says eff it not my job, boom missed.

 

[dcg9381]

Later it gets punched out and by then the electrician may have just left a hang wire for the hvac tech to connect. Tech says eff it not my job, boom missed.

On this job, electrican did the poop fans as part of his bill. He missed it 100%. I'm going to have to de-tangle at least of his 3-way switches that are wack-a-doodle too.. Wonder if that wiring is just as hosed.. One thing at a time.

 

[larry4406]

First hole will be next to the fan box, if I can find the wire, that will solve a lot of problems. But I'm going to assume I won't find it.

Why cut the plug centered on the joist? I get it if I was going to re-finish the drywall 100%, but if I center the hole on the joist, I've got 1/2 diameter access to either side of the joist... One hole (potentially) instead of two, but I'm going to have to drill that joist to bring a wire over from the light to the fan box...

You ever repair drywall patches?

You need something to screw it back in to. Some sort of scrap material. If you cut a large enough hole at the joist, you can drill joist, fish wire thru it, and then screw the plug back to it. Use a larger hole saw or a drywall keyhole saw and cut a square of your choice.

If you want access panels across your ceiling that option works also. Cut wherever you want them to match the access panels you choose.

 

[welder4956]

I see a wire crossing the ceiling joists in your first photo in the area of your pointer, as well as a wire running parallel to a joist to the right of your ppointer. Maybe the wire is there, but was not pulled into the box. Can you remove the box to check?

 

[dcg9381]

You ever repair drywall patches?

I do my best to try not to deal with drywall. My "bar" for patches is very high and I'm probably not capable. I'd rather see the access plate... I get what you're saying - if I was going to patch it and not plate it, center on the joist. That doesn't leave me enough room to drill the joist though to run wire... At least not with the current tool set.

I see a wire crossing the ceiling joists in your first photo in the area of your pointer, as well as a wire running parallel to a joist to the right of your pointer.

That wire is on the "garage side" of the wall, I doubt that it is from the interior side switch. There IS wire there, somewhere, I just didn't get a photo of it when this was built.

Maybe the wire is there, but was not pulled into the box. Can you remove the box to check?

Nope. The boxes are screwed into the joists and basically permanently fixed. When the fan fails, you just replace the fan that comes out of the box.

The box is also (I assume) connected to a vent. Come to think of it, I'm not sure I know of a vent.. Let me confirm there is one.

 

[TRWham]

I think a demo blade would cut those screws without too much effort.

 

[dcg9381]

Thanks, guys... I got lucky.

 

[larry4406]

Nice!

Do you also have a ducted discharge and wall cap?

 

[PCustoms]

Thanks, guys... I got lucky.

Little holes are easier to patch!

 

[dcg9381]

Little holes are easier to patch!

I don't do patches. I'm going to do an access plate. As you can only center drill these once (unless using the stud), I've got one shot at it... I'll end up with an 8" plate next to that fan, but beats seeing my lousy drywall patches or paying a "professional" to do it...

 

[PCustoms]

I don't do patches. I'm going to do an access plate. As you can only center drill these once (unless using the stud), I've got one shot at it... I'll end up with an 8" plate next to that fan, but beats seeing my lousy drywall patches or paying a "professional" to do it...

I get it, but a 2" hole an an inspection mirror or scope is easy to hide after...

Did you knick the wire with the saw?

 

[DGersic]

Your third picture shows no vent for the fan to blow out…

 

[dcg9381]

You guys can debate patch or plate. I went with plate.

Had I patched it, I'd be required to list this on a Seller's Disclosure. As I installed an "access plate", that's a feature, right?

 

[PCustoms]

Had I patched it, I'd be required to list this on a Seller's Disclosure.

What?

 

[dcg9381]

Did you knick the wire with the saw?

Nope, but I did buy a $27 hole saw. I ran it backwards the last bit... no nick.

Your third picture shows no vent for the fan to blow out…

Only shows 3 sides. I was worried about that too, stuck my camera up there and good to go.

 

[dcg9381]

What?

Cross between a real estate and software developer joke.
Repairs have to be disclosed in my state when/if you go to sell.
Features? Not so much!

 

[PCustoms]

Cross between a real estate and software developer joke.
Repairs have to be disclosed in my state when/if you go to sell.
Features? Not so much!

Texas requires you to disclose that you patched drywall, but you're perfectly OK wiring your own fan....

Got it

 

[larry4406]

Does the flapper on the presumed wall cap open upon fan initiation?

I think the disclosure concern of a drywall repair is a bit overblown honestly to fix a build error.

 

[mm08822]

Texas requires you to disclose that you patched drywall, but you're perfectly OK wiring your own fan....

Got it

They must really fear nail pops and dents & dings.

 

[PCustoms]

They must really fear nail pops and dents & dings.

Can you imagine if his wife has been using nails to hold pictures?

 

[mm08822]

Can you imagine if his wife has been using nails to hold pictures?

Maybe command strips originated in TX.

Another problem needing a solution.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Repairs have to be disclosed in my state when/if you go to sell.

not sure id call that a repair. its more so finishing a job that someone else started.

 

[PCustoms]

Maybe command strips originated in TX.

Another problem needing a solution.

I hope they make an XXL size, as you know everything is bigger in Texas

 

[txvwnut]

Cross between a real estate and software developer joke.
Repairs have to be disclosed in my state when/if you go to sell.
Features? Not so much!

Not a repair you'd have to disclose, and its not a repair its a final hookup/install.

 

[dcg9381]

Not a repair you'd have to disclose, and its not a repair its a final hookup/install.

I'm kidding a bit about the disclosure.... Now on to the 10 other honey-do's that I've been putting off.

 

[mm08822]

Not a repair you'd have to disclose, and its not a repair its a final hookup/install.

Sounds like an inspection is needed then - electrical, fire, revised CoA. Let's hope the Tax Office doesn't come into the picture.

Get on it before the fines start rolling in.

 

[Innovate1]

Looks like you could have just pulled the fan housing to get at the wiring.

 

[dcg9381]

Sounds like an inspection is needed then - electrical, fire, revised CoA.

Lol, that sounds like NJ where you can't pump your own gas. Technically "sellers disclosure" is a state wide rule. I paid good money to live outside the long arm of city authority. Zero permits needed here for electrical. Which also means zero inspections... Had their been an inspection, this might have been caught. Catch-22.

Looks like you could have just pulled the fan housing to get at the wiring.

You can't. It's screwed into the joists prior to drywall after framing and before drywall. Box is perm and can't come out due to it's location "between floors". Everything inside the box can be replaced.

 

[mm08822]

Lol, that sounds like NJ where you can't pump your own gas. Technically "sellers disclosure" is a state wide rule. I paid good money to live outside the long arm of city authority. Zero permits needed here for electrical. Which also means zero inspections... Had their been an inspection, this might have been caught. Catch-22.

Nope. just bustin chops!

However, zero permits/inspection for electrical sounds scary. (It's amazing the stuff that can get through with one.)

 

[PCustoms]

However, zero permits/inspection for electrical sounds scary. (It's amazing the stuff that can get through with one.)

Same here in VT (for single family owner occupied), and yes, some people do some shady work.

 

[65ranchero]

Same here in VT (for single family owner occupied), and yes, some people do some shady work.

That blew my mind when I first came up here, being from the state of a permit/inspection for every thing
yea, that would be NJ

 

[dcg9381]

However, zero permits/inspection for electrical sounds scary. (It's amazing the stuff that can get through with one.)

Seriously, I paid a lot of money (twice) to get out of the reach of the bureaucracy. Yes, there are some absolute ****-ball structures out here. But the ability to build something w/o constraint is a huge advantage to me... And frankly, to many of the GCs who build "nice places" out here and can build quickly.

At the end, when I sell, I'll have to go through an inspection process same as everyone else unless I have a cash buyer. I'm not trying to cheat the system, but if I want to add on a wing to the "shop" or add an ADU, I don't have to beg the city for permits and I can do that work myself.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

You can't. It's screwed into the joists prior to drywall after framing and before drywall. Box is perm and can't come out due to it's location "between floors". Everything inside the box can be replaced.

I have had to remove fan boxes on home warranty repairs because we couldnt get the guts for the fan anymore. i pulled the screws or nails and cut the drywall making sure the edge was enough for the replacement grille to cover

worked out fine...

 

[dcg9381]

I have had to remove fan boxes on home warranty repairs because we couldnt get the guts for the fan anymore. i pulled the screws or nails and cut the drywall making sure the edge was enough for the replacement grille to cover

worked out fine...

You're right, you CAN get it out, but you're cutting drywall to do it. likely I could put a saws-all up there and cut whatever screws/nails held it on, but it creates a bigger mess as I still need a hole big enough for my hand(s) and have to connect the vent pipe.

If this was in an attic, no big deal. But it's trapped between floors and 6" of foam insulation.

I'm just happy to have found the wire. Hopefully the messed-up 3-way switches are like this and everything is there I need to fix it.
I was so busy during this home build working on other things that I really couldn't proof the electricians work afterwards, not before the check was cut anyway... I mean I was cutting the water mains, built the main panels (2x200a), put in almost a mile of CAT 5/6, rebuilt 2 showers as deviations from plans, and working a full time job wile raising a kid to pay for it all. I'm reasonably happy with the house, but it was a beat down time in my life.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

damn what a mess

 

[manwithtools]

You guys can debate patch or plate. I went with plate.

Had I patched it, I'd be required to list this on a Seller's Disclosure. As I installed an "access plate", that's a feature, right?

First off, I'm sorry and there is no way to say this without offending you; that just looks like hack work. If I was looking at that house to potentially purchase, that alone would compel me to look very careful elsewhere in the home to see what other things had been done incorrectly.

Seriously, hiring someone to fix that drywall and paint it couldn't cost more than $100 -$150 and a thank you. That plate just looks so out of place and unsymmetrical. It would drive me nuts.

 

[dcg9381]

First off, I'm sorry and there is no way to say this without offending you; that just looks like hack work. If I was looking at that house to potentially purchase, that alone would compel me to look very careful elsewhere in the home to see what other things had been done incorrectly.

I'm not offended. At all. And I appreciate the alternate perspective. There are other things definitely done incorrectly, but I'm pretty convinced that compared to what's around it, we'll do fine when we have to sell.

Seriously, hiring someone to fix that drywall and paint it couldn't cost more than $100 -$150 and a thank you. That plate just looks so out of place and unsymmetrical. It would drive me nuts.

I get it. I'm super particular about patch and paint work. I want it to look like it never happened. If I could get it done and like it never happened for $250, I'd pay it all day long. But I'd never offend a contractor by saying this is a $150 job. Remove washer, dryer, remove all the wall plates, patch the drywall, re-texture (probably 2 days to contour it in), then repaint... That's like 4-5 hours of my time, assuming I was good with drywall and texture.