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Adding a GFCI to our bedroom

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engineer2

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Our 1992 home didn't have GFCIs in the bedrooms. I put them in the kids' bedrooms soon after we moved in. Finally decided to put one in our master bedroom. Should be easy. Simply find which box has the home run and put it in. New GFCI trips instantly. Klein outlet tester has peak capture and shows 30V.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in my experience it means a neutral on this circuit is tied together with neutral(s) on the other 120V leg. The house is full of "networked" neutrals. I suppose it would be easier to move the bedroom breaker over one slot so all the bedrooms are on the same leg.
Also found a neutral wire for a closet with continuity to ground which would also trip the GFCI. I'll be having a fun week.
 
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pattenp

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Code now requires AFCI when replacing a receptacle. There is an exception. I don't remember the details.
 
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engineer2

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I might do those for the bedrooms next time I have an extra $150 laying around. They are required in so many areas it would get expensive. Our village is on 2011 code.
 
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Norcal

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Put a GFCI receptacle in the bathroom and wire it so it serves only that bathroom, no downstream receptacles. While having the bedroom receptacles protected by a GFCI won't hurt, having the bathroom be the only receptacle served by a GFCI will be simpler, I assume by being in a Chicago suburb the wiring method is EMT, & they most likely made generous use of multiwire circuits, which may be why there are problems
 
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sparky 1971

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Leave the wiring as is and install a GFCI receptacle at each location you want the protection. Use only the line side, leave the sticker over the load terminals alone.

Or you could pull more neutrals throughout the house and eliminate the MWBC's that are causing the issues. This is based on the assumption that the wiring is in conduit since that's the Chicago way.
 
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justsam

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"Also found a neutral wire for a closet with continuity to ground which would also trip the GFCI. I'll be having a fun week."

Ground and neutral are tied together at the panel, (assuming one panel), so you should see continuity. Remember GFCI's do not really care about the ground wire, or if it even exists. They look only to see if current is equal between the hot wire and neutral, or at least with about 5ma of one another.
 
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engineer2

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Yes, Chicago style EMT, and Pulte's electrical contractor liked MWBCs.

"Also found a neutral wire for a closet with continuity to ground which would also trip the GFCI."
I thought this was on the load side, but further investigation shows a mystery H-N going to the closet light fixture and then continuing on somewhere.

I had an IBEW relative help with some wiring when I was remodeling, but it was over a decade ago and I don't remember everything we did. I know we put a 12ga in for the master bedroom home run since it is so far away from the panel. This was back when we had tube TVs and incandescent lights.

Leave the wiring as is and install a GFCI receptacle at each location you want the protection. Use only the line side, leave the sticker over the load terminals alone.
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I did find the first J-box that feeds most of the other outlets. Looks like I can do it with 2 GFCI's. I'll rearrange things so it's only the bedroom outlets and nothing else. A bedroom is not a wet area, but it's just a matter of time before someone in my family spills a glass of water into and outlet strip.
 
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nadogail

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engineer2 said:
Our 1992 home didn't have GFCIs in the bedrooms. I put them in the kids' bedrooms soon after we moved in. Finally decided to put one in our master bedroom. Should be easy. Simply find which box has the home run and put it in. New GFCI trips instantly. Klein outlet tester has peak capture and shows 30V.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in my experience it means a neutral on this circuit is tied together with neutral(s) on the other 120V leg. The house is full of "networked" neutrals. I suppose it would be easier to move the bedroom breaker over one slot so all the bedrooms are on the same leg.
Also found a neutral wire for a closet with continuity to ground which would also trip the GFCI. I'll be having a fun week.
Click to expand...
IMHO, if you want GFCI protection for your bedroom outlets in a house full of “networked neutrals” your better method would be to change each outlet to a stand alone GFCI. In your situation I would avoid those shared neutrals.
 
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exranger06

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When you say "networked neutrals," are you talking about a shared neutral in a MWBC, or are you saying that neutral wires from 2 or more circuits are all tied together willy-nilly just because they happen to be in the same junction box? If it's the latter, then you should definitely fix that and isolate the neutrals, even if you're not adding GFCIs anywhere. You can overload a neutral and cause an electrical fire.
 
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sparky 1971

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PJorgen said:
Dumb question. Wouldn’t adding a GFCI breaker for the bedroom circuit be easier?
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Nope. He could, but it would have to be a two pole breaker due to the shared neutrals. Then, when something caused the breaker to trip whether it be ground fault or overload, two circuits will go dark. And those are expensive and some are near impossible to find.
 
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PCustoms

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Unless your kid is ******* in the outlet in his bedroom, gfci doesn't make any sense.

If he is, I suggest you have other issues to address.

Are you confusing afci and gfci?

Also, as someone else pointed out, you should (in most cases) have continuity between ground and neutral at the outlet. I think you are trying to fix wasn't isn't broken, and your knowledge may lead to a more dangerous fix.
 
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wyliesdiesels

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engineer2 said:
Yes, Chicago style EMT, and Pulte's electrical contractor liked MWBCs.

"Also found a neutral wire for a closet with continuity to ground which would also trip the GFCI."
I thought this was on the load side, but further investigation shows a mystery H-N going to the closet light fixture and then continuing on somewhere.

I had an IBEW relative help with some wiring when I was remodeling, but it was over a decade ago and I don't remember everything we did. I know we put a 12ga in for the master bedroom home run since it is so far away from the panel. This was back when we had tube TVs and incandescent lights.


I did find the first J-box that feeds most of the other outlets. Looks like I can do it with 2 GFCI's. I'll rearrange things so it's only the bedroom outlets and nothing else. A bedroom is not a wet area, but it's just a matter of time before someone in my family spills a glass of water into and outlet strip.
Click to expand...
Just because they spill water doesn't mean the GFCI will even trip.
 
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engineer2

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Thanks for the replies and insults (LOL). Isolated the wall outlets from the lighting and fan and all is good now.

"When you say "networked neutrals," are you talking about a shared neutral in a MWBC, or are you saying that neutral wires from 2 or more circuits are all tied together willy-nilly just because they happen to be in the same junction box?
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I suspect willy-nilly is what happened along the way. I remember my electrician saying he was taught by the IBEW to "network the neutrals". Not the sharpest knife in the drawer, he likely forgot about the nuances of doing that. No burned wires yet. I eliminated some MWBCs where I was able to pull another neutral.

Serves no purpose other than wasting money out of your wallet

Do you know what a GFCI does?
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I'm surprised by the insults. Usually you are very helpful. At $6, it's not a great deal of money, at least to me.
 
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SlappyWhite

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In your case arc fault > ground fault. If you are putting the effort in go AFCI not GFCI.

Unless you are converting two wire (no actual ground) receptacles/outlets to three prong, GFCI receptacles are the way to do that on a two wire (no ground wire) system. But this does not sound like it is the case.
 
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wyliesdiesels

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engineer2 said:
Thanks for the replies and insults (LOL). Isolated the wall outlets from the lighting and fan and all is good now.


I suspect willy-nilly is what happened along the way. I remember my electrician saying he was taught by the IBEW to "network the neutrals". Not the sharpest knife in the drawer, he likely forgot about the nuances of doing that. No burned wires yet. I eliminated some MWBCs where I was able to pull another neutral.


I'm surprised by the insults. Usually you are very helpful. At $6, it's not a great deal of money, at least to me.
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insults? where did i insult you? and where are you getting GFCIs for $6?
 
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wyliesdiesels

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engineer2 said:
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umm i wouldnt buy those. cheap chinese no name knock-offs... probably not even NRTL listed... who knows if they will even work properly... I knew something was off when you said they were $6ea

the model #s in the pics dont even match- 1 says ygb-092 the other says ygb-094. a search of the first model number reveals its chinese ****... dont trust those with your life or your family's lives....

go buy a quality brand like leviton @ home depot. you can get a 4 pack for less than $12ea

its a bit ironic you want to improve safety but resort to using cheap *** unsafe ****

www.made-in-china.com

[Hot Item] Best Selling USA Electrical 125V GFCI Outlet Receptacle Ygb-092

Grounding: GFCI Type: Without Switch Rated Current: 15A Shell Material: Flame Retardant PC Plastic Application: Commercial, Industrial, Hospital, Residential/General-Purpose Function: GFCI
www.made-in-china.com
 
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SlappyWhite

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engineer2 said:
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First warning (big red flag), I do not see a brand name. Second one, searching the part number, I get many hits from Alibaba and like offshore sites or other sites again with no brand name. There is a c(UL)us sticker on it in the picture but....

I would not put those in my house or anyone else's, specially as your goal is to somehow improve safety. Not worth it and could be a step backwards if there are any quality issues with connections or contacts.

If you want to actually improve safety, get proper name brand AFCI outlets... skip the no name junk. Ironically those Alibaba GFCIs may cause an arcing fire.....that could be prevented if they are downstream of a decent AFCI...

Like #wyliesdisels noted Leviton or another quality brand.
 
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wyliesdiesels

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SlappyWhite said:
First warning (big red flag), I do not see a brand name. Second one, searching the part number, I get many hits from Alibaba and like offshore sites or other sites again with no brand name. There is a c(UL)us sticker on it in the picture but....

I would not put those in my house or anyone else's, specially as your goal is to somehow improve safety. Not worth it and could be a step backwards if there are any quality issues with connections or contacts.

If you want to actually improve safety, get proper name brand AFCI outlets... skip the no name junk. Ironically those Alibaba GFCIs may cause an arcing fire.....that could be prevented if they are downstream of a decent AFCI...

Like #wyliesdisels noted Leviton or another quality brand.
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yeah i forgot to mention the no brand name on it. i searched and searched and couldnt find it.

and yup the irony is strong here when it comes to safety...

he wants to improve safety yet he's using no-name chinese **** that is probably not safe to use and will actually reduce the safety factor... oppsies

im surprised mendards is selling that junk...
 
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Bert_

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wyliesdiesels said:
Serves no purpose other than wasting money out of your wallet

Do you know what a GFCI does?
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I'm kind of surprised at this response. The nec doesn't require it, and I don't think they should, but I know over in Europe they RCD (GFCI) the whole house. Obviously it would add some level of safety. I'm sure it could be argued how much it really adds.

It's not something I would do and I definitely wouldn't use a cheap off brand GFCI. Seems more likely to cause a problem then prevent one.
 
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wyliesdiesels

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Bert_ said:
I'm kind of surprised at this response. The nec doesn't require it, and I don't think they should, but I know over in Europe they RCD (GFCI) the whole house. Obviously it would add some level of safety. I'm sure it could be argued how much it really adds.

It's not something I would do and I definitely wouldn't use a cheap off brand GFCI. Seems more likely to cause a problem then prevent one.
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I just dont see the point in adding GFCIs to a bedroom, hallway or livingroom. The likelihood of someone getting nailed by ground fault current is so nil. I highly doubt it has happened very much at all
 
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Bert_

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wyliesdiesels said:
I just dont see the point in adding GFCIs to a bedroom, hallway or livingroom. The likelihood of someone getting nailed by ground fault current is so nil. I highly doubt it has happened very much at all
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And I tend to agree. Other parts of the world feel differently though. I think I'm Europe houses all get GFCI main breakers.

I remember one time as kid taking apart an oscillating fan in my bedroom. Of course I plugged it in and started messing with it. I touched something and got nailed pretty hard, probably about the first time I got shocked. Was maybe 10 years old. I wouldn't change a thing, might be one of the things that got me interested in electricity.

I do not want any more requirements for GFCI's but if someone wants it in their own house I'm not going to tell them "no".
 
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My few thoughts:
1. Europe apparently gets GFCI breakers standard in the panel, which must drive the prices down considerably vs here in the US.
2. If you're seeing this reaction on an Internet forum (where admittedly anyone can say anything, but a few folks here are known experts - @wyliesdiesels @Norcal ) you might want to consider what a home inspector or perspective buyer would say touring your home. I would ask the obvious - what the heck is going on here that required GFCI's in all the bedrooms?
3. You will likely be dealing with spurious trips or failures of these things, particularly using the no-name brand you are proposing to use. I mean, if you're going to do this for safety sake grab a decent Lutron or Leviton (or whatever your favorite reliable brand name is), and don't get the cheapest model from those manufacturers.
 
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mike93lx

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jdm5 said:
If you're seeing this reaction on an Internet forum (where admittedly anyone can say anything, but a few folks here are known experts - @wyliesdiesels @Norcal ) you might want to consider what a home inspector or perspective buyer would say touring your home. I would ask the obvious - what the heck is going on here that required GFCI's in all the bedrooms?
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Good point. If I saw them in a bedroom in a house I was buying, I would seriously wonder what homeowner hack job stuff is going on there.
 
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SlappyWhite

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Bert_ said:
And I tend to agree. Other parts of the world feel differently though. I think I'm Europe houses all get GFCI main breakers.

I remember one time as kid taking apart an oscillating fan in my bedroom. Of course I plugged it in and started messing with it. I touched something and got nailed pretty hard, probably about the first time I got shocked. Was maybe 10 years old. I wouldn't change a thing, might be one of the things that got me interested in electricity.

I do not want any more requirements for GFCI's but if someone wants it in their own house I'm not going to tell them "no".
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GFCI probably would not have tripped in your fan example unless you were the path from hot to an actual ground (of > 5ma). As most fans (today at least) are two prong your likely path for a shock like that is between hot and neutral as there is no ground and the GFCI likely won't see a fault (what went in is what came out).

Now if you were doing the same thing in your bathtub with water, or damp basement/outside in bare feet.... there is a potential path to ground.

***
All this does raise a NEC logic question for me, maybe the NEC guys on here can comment... If the house is built on a slab (no basement) is GFCI now required in all rooms where the slab is the floor (basically first floor)? Is the floor here conceptually that much different than a basement or garage where GFCI is required in latest NEC? There could be water on that floor... the finsihed flooring material could be the same for a finished basement or the slab.

Not an issue in Canada as GFCI is only required in potentially wet locations (close to a sink, outside, etc.). No requirement in basements and garages.
 
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Bert_

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SlappyWhite said:
GFCI probably would not have tripped in your fan example unless you were the path from hot to an actual ground (of > 5ma). As most fans (today at least) are two prong your likely path for a shock like that is between hot and neutral as there is no ground and the GFCI likely won't see a fault (what went in is what came out).

Now if you were doing the same thing in your bathtub with water, or damp basement/outside in bare feet.... there is a potential path to ground.

***
All this does raise a NEC logic question for me, maybe the NEC guys on here can comment... If the house is built on a slab (no basement) is GFCI now required in all rooms where the slab is the floor (basically first floor)? Is the floor here conceptually that much different than a basement or garage where GFCI is required in latest NEC? There could be water on that floor... the finsihed flooring material could be the same for a finished basement or the slab.

Not an issue in Canada as GFCI is only required in potentially wet locations (close to a sink, outside, etc.). No requirement in basements and garages.
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I would hope everyone here is well aware how a GFCI monitors current difference.

I would like to see the US relax the GFCI requirements, stationary appliances should not be required to be on a GFCI in my opinion. But let's be honest it's not going to happen.

Seeing a GFCI in a bedroom wouldn't raise any flags for me. There better things to notice when it comes to sloppy diy wiring
 
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Norcal

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GFCI's used in the US*, & RCD's used in other parts of the world are not really the same, GFCI's trip at 6ma, & RCD's 30ma.

*I should say North America, but...
 
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SlappyWhite

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Not sure for other brands.... my guess it is similar as they mostly use the same or similar chipsets inside...

Square D specs indicate that their AFCI (actually CAFI) breakers will trip with a ground fault greater than 50 mA. While that is an order of magnitude higher than the GFCI specification....they are a poor man's (or is it dead man's?) GFI.

***
Still puzzled about NEC and GFCI being required in the basement but not the first floor for a home built on a concrete slab. I do not see a big difference in risk other than maybe a leaky basement?
 
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