Adding a sub panel to a garage - quote question

[tominboise]

I want to add a sub panel to my attached garage, to add 3 or 4 240V circuits. I currently have three 110V circuits in the garage from the existing main panel, one for overhead lighting and two circuits that feed wall outlets. I want to add 240V circuits to support running a welder, adding a 240V overhead electric heater (30Amp) and provision for a future electric car charging station. The main panel is 100AMP and mounted in the basement. It is mounted directly on the concrete wall of the basement. The meter box is mounted on the back of the house. The house was built in 1946 and is wood frame with brick exterior. It originally had knob and tube wiring in the house but a lot of it was replaced in previous remodels. The original attached single car garage was rebuilt and converted to a double car garage in the late 1990s, and all the wiring was replaced at that time.

I assume they would run a conduit across the back of the house and into the garage. The attic is pretty open and accessible across the entire garage and house, so it may be easier to go up into the attic, across to the garage and then down in a wall.

Anyway, I have an electrical contractor coming to provide a quote for this work. I am wondering what I should be expecting for approximate cost, as a rough order of magnitude. $1000? $5000? $10000?

Also, a second question would be, how much and what could I reasonably do, as a very handy, DIY retired engineer/millwright/carpenter, but not an electrician. Sure, I know how to wire an outlet, install a work box, etc but I am not an expert.

I would like to farm out the entire project but if it makes sense and could save me some $$, I would consider doing some of it myself.

 

[ycgoat]

Costs are going to vary by region. With an old 100 amp I have to recommend a whole new main service. Assuming you have the minimum required circuits in the house, I would expect around $4K, but costs vary wildly and are only going up.

 

[Jim greengo]

Pictures of the existing panel feeding house and service,and pictures of area where you want a panel would help.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Too many variables to give a ball park price over the internet..... we dont even know if you live in tim-buck-two or hollywood california..... best thing to do is get 3 bids.... and go from there

 

[The Cobbler]

as mentioned no one can realistically call out a price because there are so many variables .as far as doing work yourself, often times trades people won't entertain that idea because they don't know your capabilities, they ultimately end up with the liability to make it right, and so on.
have a conversation with your electricians and ask them the questions.

 

[klassenl]

Whatever happens don't let anyone talk you into upgrading to a new 200a service. You don't need it.

 

[tominboise]

Good questions. I live in Boise, Idaho and am just looking for a ROM idea of what I will be looking at price wise.

Here is a photo of the meter on the exterior wall. The feed from this box goes through the conduit out the bottom and into the basement:


Here is the circuit breaker panel in the basement. The new sub panel would mount to the wall to the left of the existing panel ( I think) and then the feed to the garage goes to the left about 15' and then up into the garage:



This is the inside of my existing panel:



I have one electrical company coming Friday to inspect and give an estimate. I have contact for another licensed independent electrician referred by a friend that I will be calling for another quote.

 

[nadogail]

Avoid depending on "Assumptions". Standard Lecture #8, "Assume is made of three words; ***, You & Me"

 

[sparky 1971]

I think the first thing you will hear is that you need a new panel, and whoever tells you that is right. There still isn't enough info. Can a feeder be run across the basement to get to the garage, or will it have to go outside and run down the wall to get there? All I can tell you is that if you were where I do most of my work, it would cost about $10,000.00 before the garage is even considered. There is a local ordinance requiring the house to be brought up to certain standards whenever a panel gets changed unless it's for a repair. It's enough of a pain that I don't even do them unless it's an unoccupied single story home without a finished basement.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

looks like you have a strange meter main. how many spaces are in that panel on the left of the meter? can you post a picture of it with the cover open and the deadfront off?

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

1) I never comment on a price of a job because there are so many variables.
2) Get THREE quotes and take the mid priced quote "IF" you feel good with the presentation of the contractor.
3) Don’t come off as an "expert" otherwise you would not be calling a contractor.
4) Ask what can be done to lower the price "to get in the ball park" of your lowest quote.
5) Get everything in writing along with a proof of insurance certificate.
6) Make sure all permits are issued prior to start of work unless it is an emergency job.
7) Try to find someone (friend, neighbor, relative, etc.) who has used a contractor then call him as long as they had a positive experience.
8) Understand these are "tough times" with material costs/availability and a labor shortage so be patient.

 

[tominboise]

looks like you have a strange meter main. how many spaces are in that panel on the left of the meter? can you post a picture of it with the cover open and the deadfront off?

 

[tominboise]

It looks like this project may cost more than I was budgeting for at this time. I wonder if it is possible to add a second outlet to my existing dryer outlet, and run that to the garage, for use with my welder, and forget about the space heater and car charger circuit.

 

[Rc_Guy]

At our old house the wife and I just dug the trench buried I believe it was number six gauge wire back them to feed our subpanel in the shower by build, did all the work myself

 

[Jim greengo]

Good questions. I live in Boise, Idaho and am just looking for a ROM idea of what I will be looking at price wise.

Here is a photo of the meter on the exterior wall. The feed from this box goes through the conduit out the bottom and into the basement:


Here is the circuit breaker panel in the basement. The new sub panel would mount to the wall to the left of the existing panel ( I think) and then the feed to the garage goes to the left about 15' and then up into the garage:



This is the inside of my existing panel:



I have one electrical company coming Friday to inspect and give an estimate. I have contact for another licensed independent electrician referred by a friend that I will be calling for another quote.

Why not just replace it with a new panel,instead of adding a sub?

 

[tominboise]

Why not just replace it with a new panel,instead of adding a sub?

That's why I am asking questions, as I am not an expert on this. Sounds like it's better to replace the panel and run wiring to the garage from that new panel.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It looks like this project may cost more than I was budgeting for at this time. I wonder if it is possible to add a second outlet to my existing dryer outlet, and run that to the garage, for use with my welder, and forget about the space heater and car charger circuit.

Depends on the welder and existing wiring. most use a 6-50p but i wouldnt add on to a dryer circuit. just run a new circuit

 

[wyliesdiesels]

That's why I am asking questions, as I am not an expert on this. Sounds like it's better to replace the panel and run wiring to the garage from that new panel.

correct

 

[Terry D]

I think the first thing you will hear is that you need a new panel, and whoever tells you that is right. There still isn't enough info. Can a feeder be run across the basement to get to the garage, or will it have to go outside and run down the wall to get there? All I can tell you is that if you were where I do most of my work, it would cost about $10,000.00 before the garage is even considered. There is a local ordinance requiring the house to be brought up to certain standards whenever a panel gets changed unless it's for a repair. It's enough of a pain that I don't even do them unless it's an unoccupied single story home without a finished basement.

Wow, you guys are required to do all of that just on a service change

 

[Jim greengo]

We're required to hard wire smoke detectors if a house doesnt have them when a service permit is pulled.

 

[sparky 1971]

Wow, you guys are required to do all of that just on a service change

Yep. It's ridiculous. Outside the city limits the county requires the same along with smoke detectors, but battery powered is ok.

There are quite a few Federal and Zinsco panels around because people can't afford to get rid of them.

 

[ycgoat]

Having to Update a house when permit is pulled varies by jurisdiction

 

[Knight511]

There are quite a few Federal and Zinsco panels around because people can't afford to get rid of them.

Truth spoken right there. Before we moved to our new house, we had a classic 1978 FedPac panel in our old house. I knew the dangers and problems with them, but because we would be required to bring everything up to code if we replaced it, we couldn't afford the swap. I know codes are updated for safety, but I am disappointed that we couldn't just replace a known failure point because of the other issues.

Sold the house and moved. Now we have an Eaton BR panel (I know they are still hated), but it'll due for now.

 

[tominboise]

The first company came and quoted $6600 for the project. This includes permitting, installing a new 200A main panel, new 200A service connection to the power company, running the 240V to my garage, installing a sub panel and outlets in the garage, upgrading a few minor issues that aren't to code on the existing panel installation, all new breakers, using Square D materials, etc.

I am trying to find another contractor for a second quote to validate.

 

[Knight511]

That does not sound bad at all compared to what I was quoted for installing a subpanel in my shop (actually just running the wire between the main and the sub was MORE than that).

 

[75gmck25]

I agree that the quote sounds fairly reasonable. In my area it would cost at least $2k for a 200 amp panel upgrade (including permits, supplies, etc.), and that assumes you don't need a large number of new breakers.

 

[tominboise]

I received a second estimate from another electrical contractor. This contractor proposes to have the power company upgrade the service from 100A to 200A service, install a new 200A meter main panel, refeed the existing 100A basement panel, route 100A service to the garage and install a subpanel there with three circuits (two 30A and one 50A), and install three outlets in the garage using surface mount conduit for the overhead heater, welder and car charging. Inspections and permits, etc, for a total of $3600. This scope of work is more in line with what I want - staying away from the main panel in my basement.

 

[75gmck25]

So he would install a new 200 amp main panel, and then connect your old panel and the new garage panel as two 100 amp-panels? Considering all the new work needed in the garage, it sounds like a good price.

Just make sure the garage panel is big enough for future needs. There are some small panels that have as few as four breakers, but its very little increase in price to use a 24 breaker 100 amp panel. You may never need that many, but its always there.
I think this is the one I put in the garage, since it used the same QO breakers as my main panel.

Square D QO 100 Amp 24-Space 34-Circuit Indoor Main Breaker Plug-On Neutral Load Center with Cover QO124M100PC - The Home Depot

The Square D QO 100 Amp Main Breaker 24-Space 34-Circuit Convertible Indoor Plug-on Neutral Load Center for Plug-on Neutral and non-CTL tandem breakers is UL listed for residential, commercial and industrial

www.homedepot.com

 

[sparky 1971]

That's a good price (quote #2). Expect to have to make some changes to the existing panel in the basement though. The Bryant and Challenger breakers in spaces 3, 6, 8, and 16 may have to be replaced with Siemens. The 120/240 twin on the right side may have to get replaced because of the broken breaker handle, and the replacement breaker relocated to the bottom. It looks like, according to the panel sticker, that the only place listed for twin breakers is the bottom two spaces on each side. None of that stuff would bother me, but who knows what the inspector will say. Just make sure they don't try to stick you for a $1000.00 extra for that little bit of work when they decide that they bid it out too cheap.

 

[tominboise]

So he would install a new 200 amp main panel, and then connect your old panel and the new garage panel as two 100 amp-panels? Considering all the new work needed in the garage, it sounds like a good price.

Just make sure the garage panel is big enough for future needs. There are some small panels that have as few as four breakers, but its very little increase in price to use a 24 breaker 100 amp panel. You may never need that many, but its always there.
I think this is the one I put in the garage, since it used the same QO breakers as my main panel.

Square D QO 100 Amp 24-Space 34-Circuit Indoor Main Breaker Plug-On Neutral Load Center with Cover QO124M100PC - The Home Depot

The Square D QO 100 Amp Main Breaker 24-Space 34-Circuit Convertible Indoor Plug-on Neutral Load Center for Plug-on Neutral and non-CTL tandem breakers is UL listed for residential, commercial and industrial

www.homedepot.com

That is what he is suggesting. It makes more sense to me and what I was looking for in the beginning. Good suggestion on the bigger panel - I will follow up on that.

 

[tominboise]

That's a good price (quote #2). Expect to have to make some changes to the existing panel in the basement though. The Bryant and Challenger breakers in spaces 3, 6, 8, and 16 may have to be replaced with Siemens. The 120/240 twin on the right side may have to get replaced because of the broken breaker handle, and the replacement breaker relocated to the bottom. It looks like, according to the panel sticker, that the only place listed for twin breakers is the bottom two spaces on each side. None of that stuff would bother me, but who knows what the inspector will say. Just make sure they don't try to stick you for a $1000.00 extra for that little bit of work when they decide that they bid it out too cheap.

Great information - thanks very much. I will discuss the breaker replacements with him before we start up the project.

 

[tominboise]

Well, I got the project wrapped up today. Inspection was a quick pass. Here are a shot of the new service panel on the house and the sub panel in the garage, with a couple new outlets below it. It took a couple of days to get the work done. The electricians did a good job but did not spend enough time planning their work and then having to run for parts, etc. But it is done now.

 

[Dancing Bear]

I don't know if its the photo or not, but to me those 240V outlets in the second picture look like they're not installed at the same height. It would bug the hell out of my OCD.

 

[Jim greengo]

I don't know if its the photo or not, but to me those 240V outlets in the second picture look like they're not installed at the same height. It would bug the hell out of my OCD.

They look pretty close comparing them off of the bottom of panel cover.

 

[tominboise]

I don't know if its the photo or not, but to me those 240V outlets in the second picture look like they're not installed at the same height. It would bug the hell out of my OCD.

They look pretty close comparing them off of the bottom of panel cover.

Good eye - there is a 1/4" difference in the height. I didn't check it when the electrician laid it out. Oh well.

 

[Jim greengo]

Good eye - there is a 1/4" difference in the height. I didn't check it when the electrician laid it out. Oh well.

Sometimes it's just a matter of loosening the outlet and twisting it a little to straighten things .