Adding a subpanel in another room, other questions

[joseywales]

We have Eaton -Cutler Hammer box, 200AMP service.
As the saying goes, there's no more room at the inn. I'm not certain I'll do this myself or not, but here are some comments/questions.

- CH box model is CH24JJM200. I believe this means 24 positions and no tandem permitted. Correct? (Someone put a tandem in which is why I ask). I like the idea and considered adding one myself, but I'm not sure it's kosher.

- 15AMP breaker - a 12 Gauge wire coming into it (must be junctioned at some point, because it feeds the garage and our family room. When the freezer in the garage kicks on, the FR lights dim). There is also a second, 14 gauge wire, going into the same breaker (not kosher I assume). That breaker feeds a 110 outlet mounted just below the panel. I have my Comcast modem plugged into that, not sure who jumped it in with the garage/FR.

- although the 15AMP breaker (garage) above has 12 Gauge wire coming in. The wires at the outlets in the garage are 14 gauge, which makes me sad... If they were 12GA, I could swap out that 15AMP for a 20AMP.

To recap the garage, a 15AMP breaker, feeding:
- garage outlets: cordless battery chargers, dehumidifier, freezer, battery tender for motorcycle, lighting, etc., as well as the family room. Heaven forbid I run a power saw...things get very interesting.

- There is a 20AMP breaker marked Heat. This is NOT the 40AMP double pole for the HVAC system. I have to believe it's for the outlet mounted to the HVAC unit. That outlet has a power switch and it's where the condensation pump plugs in. I mention this, because I'm thinking of running wire from that outlet to the freezer in the garage. I'll see what else might be on it, but it seems like a waste of a 20AMP breaker.

Let's talk subpanel - My other other option is install a subpanel 25 feet, from the main, across a drop ceiling into the garage. Then I would just run Metal Clad cable around the garage, creating outlets, etc., and the garage would have its own circuit, as would the freezer, etc. It would be easier to run one wire, from the main to the sub, then having to run wires back to a sub mounted at the main. I might even mount the sub in the basement, right near the HVAC, then jump the wall into the garage to run wires.

Thoughts?

 

[dmcintosh]

I am no electrician, but IMO a sub panel in the garage sounds like a sound idea. In the process of doing this myself for the same reason, easier to run one large wire to the garage and then add outlets, etc., as needed from there. And, it sound like your main panel could use some help too.

 

[Norcal]

We have Eaton -Cutler Hammer box, 200AMP service.
As the saying goes, there's no more room at the inn. I'm not certain I'll do this myself or not, but here are some comments/questions.

- CH box model is CH24JJM200. I believe this means 24 positions and no tandem permitted. Correct? (Someone put a tandem in which is why I ask). I like the idea and considered adding one myself, but I'm not sure it's kosher.

- although the 15AMP breaker (garage) above has 12 Gauge wire coming in. The wires at the outlets in the garage are 14 gauge, which makes me sad... If they were 12GA, I could swap out that 15AMP for a 20AMP

Let's talk subpanel - My other other option is install a subpanel 25 feet, from the main, across a drop ceiling into the garage. Then I would just run Metal Clad cable around the garage, creating outlets, etc., and the garage would have its own circuit, as would the freezer, etc. It would be easier to run one wire, from the main to the sub, then having to run wires back to a sub mounted at the main. I might even mount the sub in the basement, right near the HVAC, then jump the wall into the garage to run wires.

Thoughts?

Most type CH loadcenters are not made to accept twin breakers, the breakers will plug in but do not attach to the rail securely. There is a huge base that was installed prior to Eaton introducing a twin breaker.

There is almost no need for 20A duplex receptacles, the innards are the same and if anything comes with a 20A plug it will require a dedicated circuit,

Metal clad cable is subject to the same requirements for protection from physical damage as NM cable, use EMT for exposed wiring.

 

[Terry D]

Not sure about your panel. A panel is only rated for so many branch circuits. The buss will have notches in it to accept a standard tandem breaker. Is the panel tan or gray colored. There are
"cheater" style one that will fit regardless, but that is actually a violation since you would be exceeding the rated number of branch circuits. Open the door on the panel and take a picture of the labels. It should have a diagram of the buss showing if tandems are allowed.

That double lugged breaker is not allowed. Only one wire to that breaker.

If you are talking about a receptacle mounted on the outside of your furnace, that is usually tied to the furnace circuit. The most likely ran a dedicated 20 amp circuit for that furnace. You just want to leave that alone, dont tap into it.

You could put a sub panel next to your main panel or in the garage. But if your main panel is full, and doesn't accept tandems to create more space, you would have to relocate two circuits from the main to the sub to give you space for the 2-pole breaker feeding the sub.

Edit: if this is a tan colored panel, it wont have notches in the buss regardless if it accepts tandems or not. The label will tell you.

Here is a link to a article explaining what to look for on the label.


https://www.startribune.com/how-to-...s-can-be-used-aka-cheater-breakers/140688183/

 

[joseywales]

Thanks guys.

- yes, I knew I would have to remove 2 breakers, to make room for a 2-pole breaker to feed a subpanel.
- I figured the doubled lugged was a no-no. I could swear it looks original to the house (30 years). The wires appear to have been in the same position forever, so that annoys me.

- good advice on the heater receptacle. I'll leave that be.

- The panel is tan.

- EMT, is Flexible Metal Conduit acceptable? I ask because my garage is, well, vertically challenged, so things get tight running around certain areas. I used EMT when I installed receptacles throughout my basement (concrete walls. That was fun). I was hoping to use flexible in the gaarage.

 

[joseywales]

Regarding 20AMP fuses, are you saying there's really no need for 20AMP, that it's really more about putting the freezer or other units on their own 15AMP circuit?

 

[Terry D]

Regarding 20AMP fuses, are you saying there's really no need for 20AMP, that it's really more about putting the freezer or other units on their own 15AMP circuit?

There is need for 20 amp circuits. I believe Norcal was talking about no need for 20 amp receptacles, 15 amp are fine.

 

[joseywales]

There is need for 20 amp circuits. I believe Norcal was talking about no need for 20 amp receptacles, 15 amp are fine.

Understood. Agreed. I wasn't thinking 20AMP receptacles, just 20AMP breakers. Maybe I wasn't clear on that point.

 

[Terry D]

Thanks guys.

- yes, I knew I would have to remove 2 breakers, to make room for a 2-pole breaker to feed a subpanel.
- I figured the doubled lugged was a no-no. I could swear it looks original to the house (30 years). The wires appear to have been in the same position forever, so that annoys me.

- good advice on the heater receptacle. I'll leave that be.

- The panel is tan.

- EMT, is Flexible Metal Conduit acceptable? I ask because my garage is, well, vertically challenged, so things get tight running around certain areas. I used EMT when I installed receptacles throughout my basement (concrete walls. That was fun). I was hoping to use flexible in the gaarage.

I added a link in my post talking about the label.

As far as that 20 amp breaker marked " heater " Some people call the furnace a heater. Try turning the breaker off and see if the furnace shuts down.

 

[joseywales]

Terry D, haha. Thanks for the link. I read that article last night, which is what prompted me to post this thread. There are no labels inside the door, on the back of the panel door (I removed it), or anywhere inside the panel that indicate whether tandems are accepted. Labels that refer to almost everything but what I'm looking for.

 

[joseywales]

Looks like they removed the 6' limit on FMC, as long as a dedicated grounding conductor is added.

 

[Terry D]

Post a picture of your breakers. I could be wrong, but I believe some are rated for two wires.

Also if you could, and feel comfortable doing so, remove a breaker or two and post a picture of the back plate they fit around. That also will tell you if tandems are accepted.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Not sure about your panel. A panel is only rated for so many branch circuits. The buss will have notches in it to accept a standard tandem breaker. Is the panel tan or gray colored. There are
"cheater" style one that will fit regardless, but that is actually a violation since you would be exceeding the rated number of branch circuits. Open the door on the panel and take a picture of the labels. It should have a diagram of the buss showing if tandems are allowed.

That double lugged breaker is not allowed. Only one wire to that breaker.

If you are talking about a receptacle mounted on the outside of your furnace, that is usually tied to the furnace circuit. The most likely ran a dedicated 20 amp circuit for that furnace. You just want to leave that alone, dont tap into it.

You could put a sub panel next to your main panel or in the garage. But if your main panel is full, and doesn't accept tandems to create more space, you would have to relocate two circuits from the main to the sub to give you space for the 2-pole breaker feeding the sub.

Edit: if this is a tan colored panel, it wont have notches in the buss regardless if it accepts tandems or not. The label will tell you.

Here is a link to a article explaining what to look for on the label.


https://www.startribune.com/how-to-...s-can-be-used-aka-cheater-breakers/140688183/

Some breakers are listed to have 2 wires terminated on their lug.

 

[Norcal]

Post a picture of your breakers. I could be wrong, but I believe some are rated for two wires.

Also if you could, and feel comfortable doing so, remove a breaker or two and post a picture of the back plate they fit around. That also will tell you if tandems are accepted.

I have no idea if this link will work, but if it does it will show the nibs on the rail necessary for a twin breaker to be properly installed. they are only on the lower part of the interior.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/alb...jpg?width=450&height=278&fit=bounds&crop=fill

 

[Terry D]

I have no idea if this link will work, but if it does it will show the nibs on the rail necessary for a twin breaker to be properly installed. they are only on the lower part of the interior.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/alb...jpg?width=450&height=278&fit=bounds&crop=fill

I actually came across a post of yours, I guess its you, same name, on mike holts forum. You have a picture on there from about 3 years ago. Looks like the same picture. Thanks for sharing that though, i didn't know that about the CH panels.

 

[Norcal]

I actually came across a post of yours, I guess its you, same name, on mike holts forum. You have a picture on there from about 3 years ago. Looks like the same picture. Thanks for sharing that though, i didn't know that about the CH panels.

It's my post. If you install a twin in a normal position on that interior it will flop around on the load side of breaker, needs that nib like what is on the lower part of the interior to properly latch in.

 

[sberry]

Also,,, if it's loaded and simply dims, is on 12 wire it won't help to change the breaker to 20, the breaker doesn't determine the load. But all that snot on one and then to run a saw,,, still not good. A garage should have a tool circuit or 2 similar to kitchen counter tops. Adding a panel, moving a couple circuits, adding a couple is a good thing, good long term equity especially diy.

 

[alfredeneuman]

EMT, is Flexible Metal Conduit acceptable?

Flex is also subject to the same damage restrictions as MC, AC, and NM cables

I don't know about the "6' rule" for flex. What was it?

 

[Norcal]

Flex is also subject to the same damage restrictions as MC, AC, and NM cables

I don't know about the "6' rule" for flex. What was it?

Always understood it that 6' or less length did not require a ECG, but have nothing to back that up.

 

[joseywales]

This house just ***** the fun out of everything. I know plenty folks have bigger problems in life, but every turn in this house is a freakin nightmare. power garage doors required cuts and spacers to work, because the hobbit garage is just over 7 feet high. Can't hang any bikes, etc., for the same reason. Every overhead light had to be flush mounted, because there's maybe 4" of space between the garage doors and the ceiling. Didn't help that the idiot who installed the doors didn't read the instructions and never installed bars, so eventually the power door opener literally ripped off the panel. It's literally written on the back of the panel. Another job I should have done myself.

Anyway, I haven't removed any breakers yet. Everyone working from home makes that a challenge in itself. However, looking at the rails, they do not appear to have the ******* required and the tandem breaker is a bit lose, though others aren't much better.

I need 4 spaces, just to add a sub panel: 1 for the piggy backed wire, 1 to break out the wires from tandem, and 2 for the 2 pole for the sub panel.

My best bet seems to be to move the Heat and the A/C circuits to the sub panel. I could even mount the sub panel right at the HVAC unit. My one neighbor is an electrical inspector, so I think I'll just have him review my plan. Maybe he'll have some good news about flex for our town. I just want to hang it on the ceiling in the garage. It's just easier than cutting metal conduit and I'm growing lazier and more agitated every year I'm in this house. Every time I want to just work on a hobby, I end up with more house problems.

My new generator won't run on propane. Champion spent hours on the phone, trying to diagnose. We replaced the hose/regulator and the sent a new carburetor, which I installed. No good. Transporting a 235 pound generator comes with some challenges, and a recently torn calf, (partially caused by clearing my yard drains which I had to install because neighbors aren't dealing with their ground water. $3,000 later, I have an underground drain, but get lazy and needed to dig up the surface drains. My calf didn't care for that. i zigged instead of zagged.). 9 weeks of PT for that, so I haven't dealt with the generator. Surprise, we lost power for almost 6 hours on Christmas Eve. Homeowners simply refuse to trim or remove their trees. I've had that generator for 8 months and we've lost power 3 times. Can't recall how many times prior to that. Household unit, they're recommending an 18kW, is $9,400 installed. End rant...

 

[alfredeneuman]

Always understood it that 6' or less length did not require a ECG, but have nothing to back that up.

"Looks like they removed the 6' limit on FMC, as long as a dedicated grounding conductor is added." sounds like you couldn't use flex over 6' long (as in Chicago).

EDIT: He must not have answer

 

[joseywales]

I read yesterday on some Google search and guys were posting the actual code sections, which dealt with FMC. Can't recall what the form was, but several posters replied with the same response.

 

[nadogail]

This house just ***** the fun out of everything. I know plenty folks have bigger problems in life, but every turn in this house is a freakin nightmare. power garage doors required cuts and spacers to work, because the hobbit garage is just over 7 feet high. Can't hang any bikes, etc., for the same reason. Every overhead light had to be flush mounted, because there's maybe 4" of space between the garage doors and the ceiling. Didn't help that the idiot who installed the doors didn't read the instructions and never installed bars, so eventually the power door opener literally ripped off the panel. It's literally written on the back of the panel. Another job I should have done myself.

Anyway, I haven't removed any breakers yet. Everyone working from home makes that a challenge in itself. However, looking at the rails, they do not appear to have the ******* required and the tandem breaker is a bit lose, though others aren't much better.

I need 4 spaces, just to add a sub panel: 1 for the piggy backed wire, 1 to break out the wires from tandem, and 2 for the 2 pole for the sub panel.

My best bet seems to be to move the Heat and the A/C circuits to the sub panel. I could even mount the sub panel right at the HVAC unit. My one neighbor is an electrical inspector, so I think I'll just have him review my plan. Maybe he'll have some good news about flex for our town. I just want to hang it on the ceiling in the garage. It's just easier than cutting metal conduit and I'm growing lazier and more agitated every year I'm in this house. Every time I want to just work on a hobby, I end up with more house problems.

My new generator won't run on propane. Champion spent hours on the phone, trying to diagnose. We replaced the hose/regulator and the sent a new carburetor, which I installed. No good. Transporting a 235 pound generator comes with some challenges, and a recently torn calf, (partially caused by clearing my yard drains which I had to install because neighbors aren't dealing with their ground water. $3,000 later, I have an underground drain, but get lazy and needed to dig up the surface drains. My calf didn't care for that. i zigged instead of zagged.). 9 weeks of PT for that, so I haven't dealt with the generator. Surprise, we lost power for almost 6 hours on Christmas Eve. Homeowners simply refuse to trim or remove their trees. I've had that generator for 8 months and we've lost power 3 times. Can't recall how many times prior to that. Household unit, they're recommending an 18kW, is $9,400 installed. End rant...

IMHO, it appears that a previous owner may have said "Permits?, We don't need Any Stinking Permits!".

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I read yesterday on some Google search and guys were posting the actual code sections, which dealt with FMC. Can't recall what the form was, but several posters replied with the same response.

check your browser history

 

[joseywales]

IMHO, it appears that a previous owner may have said "Permits?, We don't need Any Stinking Permits!".

Honestly, I think the builder and township played a large role as well. Anytime the wind blows, I can feel the air through our receptacles. It's 35 years old, not built in the 1700s - though maybe that's the problem.

I go to extend my deck 4 feet and you'd think I was installing a tornado bunker. 24" deep footers, hurricane clips, etc. If a tornado comes, I'll run under my deck, because my house will be flying across 3 counties before that deck moves.

I said to the code inspector, "where you when the builder put the deck steps in? You see, the ones that are tilting against the house now, because the slab sank so badly?" He was a nice guy and said he can't speak for the last guy. He did reduce the footers to just over a shovel depth, which was a big help.

 

[joseywales]

My history deletes overnight. Otherwise my laptop would crash every week. I did find this, but it's over a decade old. Not sure if there are newer revisions:

The limitation on the length of flexible conduit was removed from the Code several revisions ago. Before that, flex could only be a maximum 6 ft in length—in all cases. There are several references to 6 ft as a limitation on flexible conduit. However, here are special cases outlined below.

1. Sec. 350-10 (a) states several rules for 3/8 flexible metal conduit only—one being that this flexible conduit isn’t longer than 6 ft in certain instances. Other trade sizes aren’t affected by this rule. The Code rule of 6 ft for lighting tap conductors [Sec. 410-67(c)] still limits all lighting fixture tap conductors to 6 ft. So all flexible conduit used from the last outlet box to a lighting fixture must be 6 ft or less. This applies to all trade sizes used as lighting fixture tap conductors.

2. You may use flexible metal conduit in any length as long as you follow the Code rules for support (Sec. 350-18) and grounding (Sec. 250-18).

3. Sec. 250-18 limits flexible metal conduit to 6 ft only for grounding. In lengths over 6 ft, you must install a separate grounding conductor.

4. Regarding the motor circuit in question, the equipment grounding conductor must be terminated in accordance with Sec. 430-12(a) and Sec. 430-145. —W.G.J.