Adding additional ground / neutral to service box?

[e36jon]

Greetings all

Apologies if my search missed the answer to this (Please point me at the relevant thread...). Disclaimer, in case it's not way obvious, I am not an electrician. I am a mechanical engineer and am doing this work myself, without a permit, on my own home.

I am in the process of re-wiring my 1946 house & garage. The new panel that was installed (EATON MBE2040B200BTS, http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-20...-Breaker-Value-Pack-MBE2040B200BTSV/100532719 ) has 20 slots for 40 circuits. I still have quite a few more circuits to add but have run out of spots to attach ground / neutral to the provided bus-bar in the panel.

My understanding is that I am only allowed one wire per hole / connector on the bus-bar, so is it possible to add an additional bus-bar? How would you deal with this?

Thanks in advance for the help!

Regards,

Jon

This is the original screw-in-fuse panel and meter next to the new 200A box.

This is after the new panel is hooked up, including my 'drop' for circuits via raceway.

Here's an overall inside view, with the ground / neutral bus on the lower right side.

Here's a zoomed look at the almost full neutral / ground bus.

 

[sberry]

Is there a separate bar for equipment grounds? You can 2 hole those.

 

[e36jon]

Thanks for checking the post out.

It's a 'residential' box, so no separate 'equipment' grounding scheme. It has a single long bar with two or three different size holes along its' length: Lot's of small guys for #10-#14, some for intermediate size stuff, and then a few honkers for single digit stuff.

I'm hoping someone will come back with a 'go ahead and twist-em-up and clamp-em-down' (Because that's what's happening everywhere else), or advise that I can put a big jumper and second bar.

Cheers,

Jon

 

[Stuff]

What did the label say? Most will state how many grounding/green/bare wires can go in one hole. Only ever one neutral/grounded/white per hole.

It might also show where an optional grounding bar could go. Worst case you get a grounding bar - tap two holes and mount it. But then it could not be used for neutrals.

 

[e36jon]

Thanks for the reply Stuff

I just found the label (Inside the tip-up access door to the breakers. Didn't know it was there...) and it says "If more than one wire per hole must be of the same material and gauge.". It doesn't make any distinction between neutral (white insulation) and ground (green / bare).

It also says any empty holes can be used for "equipment grounding" which according to sberry (first reply) I could double up on.

It did not indicate where or if an additional grounding bar could be added.

I have been treating them as the same and only putting one wire per hole. If I can treat grounds differently and group them that would be enough to make things work.

 

[e36jon]

Here's a photo of the label for the panel. If you open the full-size version you can read all of it (I think).

The same part of the label that says multiple wires in a single hole must be of the same size and material also says "Wire holes are suitable for (1) 14-4 or up to (3) #10-14 wires."

 

[sberry]

Yes it may not say in the panel not to do it with the whites but don't. Its not legal and it does cause problems and tracked one on a service call a while back to it. I stuck some under a red wire nut to a pigtail for grounds to gain hole spaces and doubled a couple others. The whites are current carrying conductors and subject to thermal expansion under loading and need to be single.

 

[Stuff]

Read the wording "ANY UNUSED NEUTRAL HOLES MAY BE USED FOR EQUIPMENT GROUNDING."

NEC 408.41 Grounded Conductor Terminations
Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.

 

[Mustang51js]

There's two holes for adding an extra ground bar above the ground bar there. Just need to find the one for that panel so the holes line up. And your allowed to put two ground wires under one screw,neutrals are one wire under one screw

 

[e36jon]

Read the wording "ANY UNUSED NEUTRAL HOLES MAY BE USED FOR EQUIPMENT GROUNDING."

NEC 408.41 Grounded Conductor Terminations
Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.

Thanks for the reply Stuff

Your NEC code reference would seem to negate ever having more than one conductor, neutral or ground, in a single hole. Am I reading that right?

I can see the reasoning behind not having more than one neutral per sberrys' reply, but with grounds (bare / green) it would seem like pairing would be fine?

Happen to have a 'code' reference that says it's ok to add an additional grounding bus-bar? If I add an additional bar I would plan on only using it for grounds, but I suspect an inspector would probably slap me (I'm not hearing from the comments so far that it's 'common' to do this...).

Keep the feedback coming, please!

Jon

 

[Stuff]

Neutral=grounded conductor in NEC wording - normally white - so only one per hole
Ground=grounding conductor in NEC wording - green or bare - so can put three in hole according to your panel's label
Hot=ungrounded conductor in NEC wording - anything but white/green

Adding a grounding bus/bar is should be OK but technically can be flagged as violating UL or other listing since not shown on label.

 

[Stuff]

Also - why do you have an outdoor panel in your garage? Most places make you move the meter outside in a residence when an upgrade is done.

 

[e36jon]

Also - why do you have an outdoor panel in your garage? Most places make you move the meter outside in a residence when an upgrade is done.

The neighborhood / area I live in, "The Sunset" was built by just two developers in only like a five year period, 1946-1951. All of the houses had the meters (Gas too) inside, with little view windows on the wall so they could be seen / read from outside (You can see the window on the left in the first pic. There's a second window in the next stud bay to the left for the gas meter you can see.). About five years ago our service provider PG&E updated all of the meters to 'smart meter' status, so the gauges / meters no longer need to even be visible. Even my water meter is 'smart' now.

So, not really an explanation other than "that's the way it's done around here"...

Thanks again for all the input. I feel comfortable going in and combining grounds to free up some holes. I'll hold off on adding an additional bar if I can.

Cheers,

Jon

 

[Mustang51js]

Your not getting a permit so why does it matter if it's in the code for an extra ground bar. But if you look at the panel cover picture it shows the ground bar as a double,you only have one in there now,there's pre drilled holes there for that reason,to install another ground bar. And it also states on the panel cover that you can put two wires in same hole as long as they are the same size

 

[e36jon]

Your not getting a permit so why does it matter if it's in the code for an extra ground bar. But if you look at the panel cover picture it shows the ground bar as a double,you only have one in there now,there's pre drilled holes there for that reason,to install another ground bar. And it also states on the panel cover that you can put two wires in same hole as long as they are the same size

I hear ya. Future work that I have planned will have to be permitted, so there will be eyes on the panel at that point, so I am hoping to avoid future pain.

It sounds like my label was obvious to you, but I needed the clarification as to which wires I could double / triple, as supplied by 'stuff'.

 

[Norcal]

How are you getting away without getting a permit from the City of SF? It's going to cost more to ask for forgiveness then to have bit the bullet & had it inspected, plus California real estate disclosure laws when selling a property mean unpermitted work has to be disclosed, or the seller opens themselves to being sued. Swapping a overhead drop is not what a untrained person should do, as the consequences of a mistake are severe since there is no overcurrent protection on the secondary of PG&E's transformer.

IMO I would just add to largest Eaton ground bar kit you can find & be done with it. How is the gutter at the bottom of the panel bonded to the panel?

 

[Mustang51js]

I hear ya. Future work that I have planned will have to be permitted, so there will be eyes on the panel at that point, so I am hoping to avoid future pain.

It sounds like my label was obvious to you, but I needed the clarification as to which wires I could double / triple, as supplied by 'stuff'.

The green and bare copper wires are the only ones you can double up on,whites are only one wire per screw

 

[Zeke]

How are you getting away without getting a permit from the City of SF? It's going to cost more to ask for forgiveness then to have bit the bullet & had it inspected, plus California real estate disclosure laws when selling a property mean unpermitted work has to be disclosed, or the seller opens themselves to being sued. Swapping a overhead drop is not what a untrained person should do, as the consequences of a mistake are severe since there is no overcurrent protection on the secondary of PG&E's transformer.

IMO I would just add to largest Eaton ground bar kit you can find & be done with it. How is the gutter at the bottom of the panel bonded to the panel?

He must have had a permit for the new panel or they wouldn't have moved the meter over. With the lock and tag on it, I say it's been inspected.

However, the OP is adding circuits on his own. At least that's the way I read this. I can't read the panel data sheet so I won't speculate.

 

[Norcal]

He must have had a permit for the new panel or they wouldn't have moved the meter over. With the lock and tag on it, I say it's been inspected.

However, the OP is adding circuits on his own. At least that's the way I read this. I can't read the panel data sheet so I won't speculate.

That tag is not hard to defeat, but you may be right.

 

[e36jon]

Hey gang

Yeah, I paid a real live electrician to do the new drop, and install the new panel. It was permitted and inspected (The green inspection sticker is visible in the first couple of pics.) I am only adding new circuits as I work on the house and garage.

And yes, there will be disclosures-o-plenty if / when it's time to sell...

Does that make things OK with everyone or do I need to turn myself in to the authorities?

 

[Zeke]

Hey gang

Yeah, I paid a real live electrician to do the new drop, and install the new panel. It was permitted and inspected (The green inspection sticker is visible in the first couple of pics.) I am only adding new circuits as I work on the house and garage.

And yes, there will be disclosures-o-plenty if / when it's time to sell...

Does that make things OK with everyone or do I need to turn myself in to the authorities?

If things are done to code then there are no red flags. It's kind of a gray area when you have a new panel done by a licensed electrician and inspected and then go in and add some circuits. I base my thoughts on the fact that when the inspection is done no 'as built' plans are filed. Therefore any future inspections won't have any info as to what the original permit included. YMMV

I say that being within reason. And you can always protect yourself by hiring a licensed electrician to add the last couple of circuits and to look over what you did. There will be a fee. If the sparky you choose balks, find another.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Hey gang

Yeah, I paid a real live electrician to do the new drop, and install the new panel. It was permitted and inspected (The green inspection sticker is visible in the first couple of pics.) I am only adding new circuits as I work on the house and garage.

And yes, there will be disclosures-o-plenty if / when it's time to sell...

Does that make things OK with everyone or do I need to turn myself in to the authorities?

depends on the AHJ/city regulations. Some cities require permits IF the work is over a certain amount.

Call the building department anonymously and ask what work requires a permit.

 

[thewatusi]

Meh he's got the sticker from the panel install and is making an effort to do things right. As long as he doesn't do a total hack job nobody will be the wiser.