Adding Circuits and Outlets to my Garage.

[JohnBlack]

I am setting up my garage as a workshop and will be adding in a 220v air compressor circuit (hardwired) and need an outlet for my welding equipment, along with extra 110v outlets for that side of the shop.

I think I'm going to need a subpanel adjacent to my main panel. There doesn't seem to be any space in my existing panel, and some of the wiring seems to be a bit sketchy anyway. The previous owner wasn't exactly a perfectionist when it came to home maintenance.

So, my question is what am I going to need to ask for? A 100 amp subpanel? What kind of work am I looking to have done in order to have the five outlets and the compressor circuit installed?

Sorry the pics are sideways. I can't seem to get them to go right side up.

 

[nine4gmc]

When you take the pics, make sure the button is to the right and the pics will show right when you upload them here.

 

[JohnBlack]

Okay. Thanks. I tried to edit them and re-upload but it didn't work. I'll do it tomorrow if people have a hard time with it.

 

[dw1]

Looks to be maxed out circuit wise, you have a 24 circuit split bus panel, I cant tell for sure, but it looks like a 200 amp, can you see what size wire is feeding this panel?
I would replace this panel with a larger one, if it is a 200 amp panel, you could get a 40 circuit very reasonable, you could get a copper bus 40 circuit panel at HD for about $150
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-...ker-Indoor-Load-Center-P4040B1200CU/203027309

That one has copper bus.

I would start there and then address the needs of your garage, looks like you might have a couple of circuits doubled up on breakers! I am guessing you will need to add a driven ground rod.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Looks to be maxed out circuit wise, you have a 24 circuit split bus panel, I cant tell for sure, but it looks like a 200 amp, can you see what size wire is feeding this panel?
I would replace this panel with a larger one, if it is a 200 amp panel, you could get a 40 circuit very reasonable, you could get a copper bus 40 circuit panel at HD for about $150
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-...ker-Indoor-Load-Center-P4040B1200CU/203027309

That one has copper bus.

I would start there and then address the needs of your garage, looks like you might have a couple of circuits doubled up on breakers! I am guessing you will need to add a driven ground rod.

Ive seen more problems with those copper siemens buss's oxidizing/turning black in differant areas than Ive ever seen problems with the tin plated sq-D buss's over the years.

 

[JohnBlack]

Looks to be maxed out circuit wise, you have a 24 circuit split bus panel, I cant tell for sure, but it looks like a 200 amp, can you see what size wire is feeding this panel?....I am guessing you will need to add a driven ground rod.

I can't tell what size wire is feeding the panel without pulling apart the wall.

So you think I'm going to need ANOTHER ground rod? There is a 5/8" rod in the ground directly on the other side of the panel.

 

[pattenp]

Long ago one rod was enough, but today 2 rods is the standard because it's a pain to prove the 25 ohms or less resistance required by the NEC to just have one rod. Cheaper/easier to stick in the second rod.

 

[dw1]

Don't pull apart the wall, serif the wire size is indented into the wire, you had the panel cover off, with out touching, look at the wire real close, obey you can see the wire size stamped in it


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[dw1]

Ha, sent on my phone, I'll have to edit above later


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[JohnBlack]

Long ago one rod was enough, but today 2 rods is the standard because it's a pain to prove the 25 ohms or less resistance required by the NEC to just have one rod. Cheaper/easier to stick in the second rod.

Cheaper and easier than what? What's the downside? Since I'm not having a problem with the ground, everything is working fine, and all I want to do is add some outlets, what is the purpose in adding another ground rod?

 

[JohnBlack]

Don't pull apart the wall, serif the wire size is indented into the wire, you had the panel cover off, with out touching, look at the wire real close, obey you can see the wire size stamped in it

Okay, the stamping is really faded but it appears to be 4/0 Aluminum.

 

[dw1]

I would replace your panel with a bigger one (40 circuit) and have a main breaker, then address your other needs, is it attached or detached garage?


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[JohnBlack]

I would replace your panel with a bigger one (40 circuit) and have a main breaker, then address your other needs, is it attached or detached garage?

I think that's the best idea. That's definitely not a project I can tackle on my own so I'll have to find a local electrician. Any estimate on the number of hours to swap out the panel? Are my old breakers still compatible with the new panels or am I going to have to buy all new breakers as well?

 

[pattenp]

Cheaper and easier than what? What's the downside? Since I'm not having a problem with the ground, everything is working fine, and all I want to do is add some outlets, what is the purpose in adding another ground rod?

The second rod would most likely be needed if installing a new service. Yours is existing service so you don't have to add the second rod if you don't want to. Having the equipment to to the resistance test is expensive to prove the 25 ohm or less resistance to meet NEC requirements for one rod. Having a supplemental second rod is used instead of having to prove the 25 ohm or less resistance requirement. Adding a second rod just provides a better earth ground which can be better for grounding lighting strikes.

And how do you know your ground electrode system is meeting the 25 ohm or less resistance? When you say your ground is good and everything is working fine you are talking about the equipment ground in your wiring system. That is not the same as the earth grounding system which is the ground rod. You can completely remove the grounding electrode (rod) and everything will still work fine.

 

[dw1]

I like to replace it all, see if there is an inspection sticker inside the panel somewhere with a date in it to give you an idea on how old it is!! About 4 hours to replace it


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[JohnBlack]

The second rod would most likely be needed if installing a new service. Yours is existing service so you don't have to add the second rod if you don't want to. Having the equipment to to the resistance test is expensive to prove the 25 ohm or less resistance to meet NEC requirements for one rod. Having a supplemental second rod is used instead of having to prove the 25 ohm or less resistance requirement. Adding a second rod just provides a better earth ground which can be better for grounding lighting strikes.

And how do you know your ground electrode system is meeting the 25 ohm or less resistance? When you say your ground is good and everything is working fine you are talking about the equipment ground in your wiring system. That is not the same as the earth grounding system which is the ground rod. You can completely remove the grounding electrode (rod) and everything will still work fine.

Thanks for taking the time to explain all that. You are right about the ground of course. It would be good insurance to add another ground rod. I realized what I said about there not being a ground problem a few minutes after I replied. I guess the one way to know if there is a bad ground is after the fire investigator digs through the ashes. And since I live in Florida, the lightning capital of the world, it's something I need. Thank you again.

 

[JohnBlack]

I like to replace it all, see if there is an inspection sticker inside the panel somewhere with a date in it to give you an idea on how old it is!! About 4 hours to replace it

Replacement of all old breakers is a few hundred bucks, so it's a definite concern. I know that the house was built in the mid 70s and I bought it off the original owner so those breakers probably date from that era. There is no dated sticker inside the panel. But there are some cave drawings... Lol

 

[pattenp]

Thanks for taking the time to explain all that. You are right about the ground of course. It would be good insurance to add another ground rod. I realized what I said about there not being a ground problem a few minutes after I replied. I guess the one way to know if there is a bad ground is after the fire investigator digs through the ashes. And since I live in Florida, the lightning capital of the world, it's something I need. Thank you again.

Don't get a false sense of security by adding a second ground rod. A good lighting arrester system goes way beyond what protection two ground rods provide.

 

[JohnBlack]

Don't get a false sense of security by adding a second ground rod. A good lighting arrester system goes way beyond what protection two ground rods provide.

I don't think Mother Nature is going to take notice of my sense of security if lightning strikes. ☺

 

[dw1]

The second rod would most likely be needed if installing a new service. Yours is existing service so you don't have to add the second rod if you don't want to. Having the equipment to to the resistance test is expensive to prove the 25 ohm or less resistance to meet NEC requirements for one rod. Having a supplemental second rod is used instead of having to prove the 25 ohm or less resistance requirement. Adding a second rod just provides a better earth ground which can be better for grounding lighting strikes.

And how do you know your ground electrode system is meeting the 25 ohm or less resistance? When you say your ground is good and everything is working fine you are talking about the equipment ground in your wiring system. That is not the same as the earth grounding system which is the ground rod. You can completely remove the grounding electrode (rod) and everything will still work fine.

Exactly as quoted above, also, go out and look (Inspect) your ground rod, if it is a piece of galvanized conduit, make sure its still intact (Not rusted through)
You can still use the original ground rod, just make sure the connection is still solid.

 

[JohnBlack]

Exactly as quoted above, also, go out and look (Inspect) your ground rod, if it is a piece of galvanized conduit, make sure its still intact (Not rusted through)
You can still use the original ground rod, just make sure the connection is still solid.

It's a solid galvanized steel rod, but it's been out in the damp Florida weather for 40 years. I'm sure the connections are in bad shape.

 

[Cmreschke]

And how do you know your ground electrode system is meeting the 25 ohm or less resistance? When you say your ground is good and everything is working fine you are talking about the equipment ground in your wiring system. That is not the same as the earth grounding system which is the ground rod. You can completely remove the grounding electrode (rod) and everything will still work fine.

That's all fine and dandy and I know the code states 25 ohms or less, blah blah blah, 2nd ground rod.

Imo 2 ground rods is still a false sense of security as they don't care if you get to 25 ohms or less, if they did you would have to test no matter what.

Not attacking you, I'm attacking the code making panel on this.

Back on topic, yes you should get a panel change, breakers all new to match your new panel should not be a couple hundred dollars if you can find the contractor pack panels, as they do come with some breakers.
Estimate on time, in a perfect world 3 hours, but plan 6.

 

[JohnBlack]

Thanks for the input guys. Next step is to find a guy to do this for me.