Adding external power source to a power strained shop

[Johnnys Shop]

Hello, everyone

I am working out of a 24x26 shop that is located on the farmstead that was established in 1964.

How my father set things up was power went to the farm yard first. he lived in a garage beside his truck on a dirt floor when he started out.

So eventually he put in an underground line to the garage (600ft) and eventually to the mobile and then the house. So everything ties into the garage. When my shop was built in 2008 we ran a underground line from the garage to my shop about 100ft or so of line. Well It is now a wood work shop and when the dust collector turns on the lights go dim during the start up draw.

I want to add a 3hp tablesaw (sawstop pro) to the mix but am worried with 2 computers (one office and one for cnc), a cnc machine (camaster stinger 1), 5hp dust collector (clearvue cvmax), air compressor (for cnc) ,lights, electrics for boiler (radiant floor heating) already running the tablesaw might be to much for the strained system.


Now some days the tablesaw might not run and very rarely do I run it for 6hrs a day. (not all those previously listed are always running at the same time but its often)

So what are some options?
Would a battery bank work for the extra power. something that the system charges and draws from when needed.

Would solar power help, perhaps for the bank.

Is it better to have a generator set up for the 240v to run the tablesaw. as the dust collector currently uses a 30 amp breaker and any $1000 under used gens were around 20 amp max

Putting in a bigger line is not really something I want to do as I would told it would be expensive. My Current shop is stretched to the max is almost every aspect already but I do not have the money currently to just build a huge new shop. So I am looking for something that is either cheap or something I can transfer to another site later on.

Or do I just have to try and make due with what I have for now. This is a full time workshop not weekend warrior and can go from 9 in the morning till 10 or 11 at night depending on the work load.

 

[A_Pmech]

It sounds like you have a happening business in your garage. Good deal!

You need to look at the 700 feet of wire between the meter and your shop. From what you describe, there's a large voltage drop from the meter to your shop. It's probably due to undersized wiring.

Rather than work out "temporary" solutions, I'd consider upgrading your service. If you're on a rural electric co-op, it may be less expensive than you think. Especially if you can have your co-op put the meter closer to your shop.

I successfully ran my machine shop on the original 1940's 50-amp service installed here when the Rural Electrification program was going on. It ran that way for several years before I upgraded. I never had a brown out, but I had the breakers propped closed with dowel rod.

 

[CNGsaves]

Too little information . . . what WIRE is between main panel and wood work shop 100 ft away ?? What size limiting breaker in subpanel in wood shop?? How many amps of overall electrical service is at main panel (original garage)??

What country are you in ?? What AHJ has authority over your electrical ??

+1 to properly upgrade the buried wire 100 ft from main panel to the subpanel in OP's wood work shop. This NEEDS to be done. Ten sticks of 2" plastic conduit and proper wire won't be that expensive. Having to cobble together power in an active wood working shop is just counter-productive.

 

[Johnnys Shop]

Wire is from some left over I believe that ran from the pole to the garage.
Size limiting breaker if you tell me what to look for I will tell you.

Okay so some unsettling news for me. There is a breaker box in the old garage but not for my shop. it goes from underground then to the garage and then one line to the house and one line to the shop.... So something I did not realize no actual main breaker between me and the power line. There might be something down in the workshop where the power comes in so I will have to ask when he gets home. I have attached a photo of what my panel looks like right now. note two yellow wires I installed in December for the cnc equipment, everything else was done by an electrician he set it all up. I did all the pre-wiring for the walls. the Yellow wires were done at Christmas rush and had no time to do it right... and now its just laziness... and trying to get work done.

Alberta, Canada

Having to cobble together power is a counter productive also having to move equipment around all the time is counter productive. having an 8ft ceiling is just a nightmare lights are too low, dust collect pipes are too low, ceiling is constantly being hit or wood is getting wedged. 24x26 with a 8x10 office out of it is just too small spent a month making new storage things and reorganizing and even though I can see more of the floor the same problems i had before did not go away. its a terrific weekend warrior shop, but a 10+ hr day 7 days a week shop it is not.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

While i cant comment specifically on your situation, as Im an electrician in the US, i can say under NEC code, theres several violations in that panel.

As far as voltage drop wire gauge etc, we can help u on that as wire is wire....

Post up pics of all your panels with covers removed and we will help u out! Also figure out what feeds what!

 

[Johnnys Shop]

Okay here the are the photos. I tried to open the breaker panel down in the shop but it was behind a table, 1950's welder and a bunch of other stuff. the other photo is the junction that the power comes in, and one line goes to my workshop and the other to the house.

Tell me what violations you see and I will work on rectifying it (but seriously if its more then my two yellow wires what is the point of hiring professionals?)
This is a shop and since it is not attached to the house or living quarters the breaker box can be mounted on the wall instead of in it. I do know that.

 

[kd3pc]

high current draw and 240v and PV Panel solar are seldom used in the same paragraph.

It can be done, but the cost will far exceed conventional power company options. And there will be a time that you will run out of power or suffer an equipment or battery failure. The PV panels need to have adequate sun that your part of the world would struggle to provide.

Best of luck, and yes your panels would need tape, cleanup and updates to be legal in most of the US.

 

[Johnnys Shop]

Well just found out Dad believes the main breaker down in the shop is 35 amp. which does not seem right from that breaker there are 5 deep freezers, 3 fridges, his shop and my shop and their house which does have a diesel furnace and propane dryer, stove and water heater. unless its 35amp at 240v
My cnc requires a 120v 20amp separate circuit just for that. dust collector draws 22amp at 240v. so it would seem just those two items would make the breaker trip. Especially when you add the 700ft or so of buried line

 

[CGT80]

Do you have pics of the line coming from the power meter?

Post 6 has a pic of a panel with junctions in it. Is this the first stop after the 600 foot run from the meter?

I am trying to follow the path of the power, but your explanation isn't quite clear. Have you looked for printing on the wire to see what size wire it is?

I wonder if you could use a step up and step down transformer on each end of the 600 foot run to give the capacity you need, instead of having to run larger wire for that span. That is assuming it isn't capable of the load you are putting on it and that it is the first and main run.

Is there a main breaker at the power meter?

This is an interesting problem that you are having, but we need more details to get a better picture of what is going on and to point you in the right direction.

 

[Johnnys Shop]

Do you have pics of the line coming from the power meter?

Post 6 has a pic of a panel with junctions in it. Is this the first stop after the 600 foot run from the meter?

I am trying to follow the path of the power, but your explanation isn't quite clear. Have you looked for printing on the wire to see what size wire it is?

I wonder if you could use a step up and step down transformer on each end of the 600 foot run to give the capacity you need, instead of having to run larger wire for that span. That is assuming it isn't capable of the load you are putting on it and that it is the first and main run.

Is there a main breaker at the power meter?

This is an interesting problem that you are having, but we need more details to get a better picture of what is going on and to point you in the right direction.

I will check tomorrow. High winds here have made it almost impossible for me to walk due to the arthritis. P.S. dont get arthritis.

For now from memory. The power line comes into the yard to the meter from there I believe one line goes to my dads work shop. the other line goes to various other buildings in the yard pump house and so forth, other then the pump for cattle the rest of the power is rarely if ever used on that line. so back to the workshop. from the workshop (the one with the closed door as I could not get it to open post 6) one line goes from there to power his shop, a second line leaves goes underground 600+ft to the old garage (junction box) from there one line goes to the home 100ft, the line with red wires goes to a cabin i built as a showroom. Lastly one line goes to my shop probably 100ft. The line coming into my shop is I believe Gauge 2 as the one wire measured .26xx " across. Looking at the junction box photos I think the 600ft run and the run to the house are a heavier gauge then mine.

Originally my work shop was a art painting studio and the other half had a hot rod i was building in it. so it was never conceived I would require these kind of power loads.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Okay here the are the photos. I tried to open the breaker panel down in the shop but it was behind a table, 1950's welder and a bunch of other stuff. the other photo is the junction that the power comes in, and one line goes to my workshop and the other to the house.

Tell me what violations you see and I will work on rectifying it (but seriously if its more then my two yellow wires what is the point of hiring professionals?)
This is a shop and since it is not attached to the house or living quarters the breaker box can be mounted on the wall instead of in it. I do know that.

the thing is i dont know canadian code. But in the US, u would need NM cable clamps for where the wire enters the panel.

Also, if u have more than 6 breaker handles then u need a main breaker...

 

[theoldwizard1]

high current draw and 240v and PV Panel solar are seldom used in the same paragraph.

If you don't want to pull new wire, your only real choice is a generator for your power tools. Loud and the fuel costs will quickly change your mind about pull new wire.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Rather than work out "temporary" solutions, I'd consider upgrading your service. If you're on a rural electric co-op, it may be less expensive than you think. Especially if you can have your co-op put the meter closer to your shop.

Best suggestion !

The power company might even put in a bigger transformer to handle your requirements.

 

[bjcouche]

I would like to get you some better advice but try as I might I cannot follow your descriptions of the numerous buildings that your power goes through in it's path from the power company to your woodshop. I would suggest you grab some paper and sketch it out. Draw a box for each building and label each. IF youhave more than one garage, label them garage A, garage B, etc. Then draw lines (wires) between the buildings and label the wires with the wire size and breaker size feeding that wire.
I'm in the US and am not particularly familiar with the CEC, however I would say that generally teh CED is more stringent than the NEC. The panel in your woodshop has NEC violations of:
A: missing cable clamps on your newly added yellow wires.
B: needs some sort of main breaker or disconnect switch, because it's a detached structure.
C: Improper ground bonding. The neutral needs to be isolated from the ground. Normally subpanels in detatched structures have to have 4 wires, 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground. There are a couple exceptions to that NEC rule, but I'm unsure if you qualify, or if the CEC even has those. Quite a few years ago it was allowable to run power to subpanels with 3 wires, but not now, and that's a new subpanel......

We won't know the extent of your necessary changes or fixes until we get the full picture of your power routing. You never know, the solution might be easy, sure is worth the effort. With all those buildings and wiring between them, somebody's real talented with a trencher anyways.

 

[slip knot]

My opinion would be to run a new service to the shop.

An old friend of mine had a shop in the boonies and they wanted $3000 to run service to it. He had a fit and said he'd run his onan to power the shop. 20 yrs later and he can't maintain the onan so he's without power. I go down and repair the generators but it seems to me he would have been much better off to pay the $3000.