Adding grounds to older house

[jdsac]

I have an older house (mid 50's) that was wired with 2 wire Romex,
black & white only- no ground.

Question- is there any reason (code, safety or other) that I can't run
separate new ground wires back to a bus bar & then back to the panel,
sort of a "spider"

I need to put in some gfci recepticles to replace existing 2 prong units in the bath rooms and want them to be properly grounded- not just put them in with the "no equip ground" stickers.

Thank you for your help!

 

[Rookie2]

I doubt it would be legal . If you have room to spider a ground wire to a receptacle then I would run new romex to those outlets.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

The GFCI work fine without the ground. They do not use it for their function, and in fact, virtually everything you plug into your bathroom receptacle, hair dryer, electric razor, etc. are only two prong anyhow. Most hair dryers, if not all, now have a built in GFCI on the end of the cord, and a two prong plug, so having the ground working is truthfully, a non issue. Looking around my house, I am hard pressed to find anything other than the electronic equipment such as the computer and the UPS units, that have the ground pin in the plug. All my lamps, fans, blow dryers, toasters, phone chargers, etc are two prong.

And no, its not to code to have a loose wire, ground or otherwise. It has to be contained in the same jacket/conduit/whatever, as the rest of the circuit.

Charles

 

[malibu101]

If you can fish in a new single ground wire why can't you just fish in new romex?

 

[Zeke]

My 1930 stucco has some knob and tube and a completely separate system of bare grounds. A bit scary.

 

[foodgroup]

My FIL suggested adding bare grounds when I bought my house and I believe it is allowed, but I ignored him and am replacing circuits with new romex as suggested above.

FYI:

https://www.inkling.com/read/nfpa-n...book-2011/chapter-2/vii--methods-of-equipment

"Exception No. 1 to 250.134(B) permits an equipment grounding conductor to be run to the grounding electrode separately from the other conductors of an ac circuit. This practice applies only where a grounding-type receptacle is used on a circuit that does not include an equipment grounding conductor. See the commentary following 250.130(C) for further explanation"

 

[harvero]

I've seen old paper wrapper 2 conductor romex wired houses with a separate external ground ran in couple of houses across the years. The 2 homes I recall were build post war and had a mix of BX and the paper romex. I was told by my father that it was a common practice at one time if you wanted add a grounded outlet back in the 50's to an exiting circuit to pull a separate ground.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

The GFCI work fine without the ground. They do not use it for their function, and in fact, virtually everything you plug into your bathroom receptacle, hair dryer, electric razor, etc. are only two prong anyhow. Most hair dryers, if not all, now have a built in GFCI on the end of the cord, and a two prong plug, so having the ground working is truthfully, a non issue. Looking around my house, I am hard pressed to find anything other than the electronic equipment such as the computer and the UPS units, that have the ground pin in the plug. All my lamps, fans, blow dryers, toasters, phone chargers, etc are two prong.

And no, its not to code to have a loose wire, ground or otherwise. It has to be contained in the same jacket/conduit/whatever, as the rest of the circuit.

Charles

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I doubt it would be legal . If you have room to spider a ground wire to a receptacle then I would run new romex to those outlets.

The GFCI work fine without the ground. They do not use it for their function, and in fact, virtually everything you plug into your bathroom receptacle, hair dryer, electric razor, etc. are only two prong anyhow. Most hair dryers, if not all, now have a built in GFCI on the end of the cord, and a two prong plug, so having the ground working is truthfully, a non issue. Looking around my house, I am hard pressed to find anything other than the electronic equipment such as the computer and the UPS units, that have the ground pin in the plug. All my lamps, fans, blow dryers, toasters, phone chargers, etc are two prong.

And no, its not to code to have a loose wire, ground or otherwise. It has to be contained in the same jacket/conduit/whatever, as the rest of the circuit.

Charles

There IS actually an exception in the NEC that allows ground wires to be run separately from the circuit conductors. Ive done this on several old houses and Ive been on jobs where other contractors have done this, it got inspected and passed. This exception ONLY applies to older homes where the circuit conductors are 2 wire with no EGC....

However, your point about 2-prong devices is logical!

 

[sberry]

This needs to be read again, there is no spider web allowed.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

And no, its not to code to have a loose wire, ground or otherwise. It has to be contained in the same jacket/conduit/whatever, as the rest of the circuit.

Charles

I stand corrected on this. I do recall discussions where someone wanted to add a neutral to a existing two wire 240v circuit and this is clearly not allowed. Was thinking about this previous discussion when I made the statement above.

Most likely the old two wire Romex is 14 gauge. If you are going to bother and run grounds, start pulling new 12 gauge Romex and increase the value of your house.

Charles

 

[wyliesdiesels]

This needs to be read again, there is no spider web allowed.

As I have said, NEC code allows EGCs to be run separate from circuit conductors for retrofitting older 2-wire homes....

I stand corrected on this. I do recall discussions where someone wanted to add a neutral to a existing two wire 240v circuit and this is clearly not allowed. Was thinking about this previous discussion when I made the statement above.

Most likely the old two wire Romex is 14 gauge. If you are going to bother and run grounds, start pulling new 12 gauge Romex and increase the value of your house.

Charles

Yeah, running a neutral conductor separate would NOT be allowed. EGCs are different. But yes, if someone is gonna go to the trouble of running ground wires, might as well just run new Romex....

 

[sberry]

It allows a conductor to a device.

 

[sberry]

But,, if its this old things have changed. Start with new wire for kitchen counter tops, add circuits, new wire to laundry and to bathrooms if any of these share parts of other circuits. Unless there is a real reason to need it now I agree with Charles, pull new wire and increase value of home.

 

[Beemer533]

Seems to me if I could pull a ground wire I could just as well pull new romex..

 

[AlwaysFixingSomething]

The GFCI work fine without the ground. They do not use it for their function, and in fact, virtually everything you plug into your bathroom receptacle, hair dryer, electric razor, etc. are only two prong anyhow. Most hair dryers, if not all, now have a built in GFCI on the end of the cord, and a two prong plug, so having the ground working is truthfully, a non issue. Looking around my house, I am hard pressed to find anything other than the electronic equipment such as the computer and the UPS units, that have the ground pin in the plug. All my lamps, fans, blow dryers, toasters, phone chargers, etc are two prong.

And no, its not to code to have a loose wire, ground or otherwise. It has to be contained in the same jacket/conduit/whatever, as the rest of the circuit.

Charles

Sure if you don't care about surges blowing up your electronics People think they can just buy a surge strip and it will give protection...nope. Without and egc that surge bar is just simply useful for plugging in more ****. They need an egc to shunt the surge to ground.

 

[BFBOB]

I'm not an electrician, but I work with them a lot. They have told me it's a violation to install a 3-wire outlet without the ground (egc). That would prohibit putting in a GFI on an old 2-wire circuit even though it would function correctly to protect the user.

...or is there an exception to this rule too for existing circuits ?

Anyway, it's nice to know my additions of ground wires to some of the outlets in my 80 year old house are actually legal! The reason I went that way rather than rewiring w/Romex is mostly that if I were to go to the trouble I'd use 12 ga, and that would require rewiring the ENTIRE branch. Otherwise, some future owner might well put it on a 20A breaker, not realizing most of it is still 14ga.

 

[yeldogt]

30 years ago I had to do this on a couple of bungalows I owned. I was remodeling both of them .. one to rent and one to live in. Local inspector said I had to add ground wires and three way outlets on anything I was not replacing ..to bring the house up to code. The house had two wire black cable -- almost like a braided covering. Early Romex?

I believe we ran bare copper wire --- it was basically a loop in the basement and a loop in the attic -- with splices ... the kind with the copper cap that you crimp on.

The bathrooms and kitchen had to be rewired and GFI's installed ..

 

[n8n]

As I have said, NEC code allows EGCs to be run separate from circuit conductors for retrofitting older 2-wire homes....



Yeah, running a neutral conductor separate would NOT be allowed. EGCs are different. But yes, if someone is gonna go to the trouble of running ground wires, might as well just run new Romex....

Agree with both comments. But sometimes you may not want to bust up a particular wall (wallpaper?) to fish new Romex but you could sneak a single 14AWG conductor through there.

Another thing to look into as a stopgap is installing a GFCI recep in place of the first device on each circuit, this is also legal and allows you to install grounding type receps in ungrounded boxes so long as they are marked with stickers stating "GFCI protected - no equipment ground."

There are good reasons to go ahead and provide grounds however, the GFCI will only protect *you* but surge protectors etc. may rely on a good ground to function correctly.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'm not an electrician, but I work with them a lot. They have told me it's a violation to install a 3-wire outlet without the ground (egc). That would prohibit putting in a GFI on an old 2-wire circuit even though it would function correctly to protect the user.

...or is there an exception to this rule too for existing circuits ?

Anyway, it's nice to know my additions of ground wires to some of the outlets in my 80 year old house are actually legal! The reason I went that way rather than rewiring w/Romex is mostly that if I were to go to the trouble I'd use 12 ga, and that would require rewiring the ENTIRE branch. Otherwise, some future owner might well put it on a 20A breaker, not realizing most of it is still 14ga.

Yes it is a violation to put a grounded recepticle on a 2-wire circuit. However there is an exception tht allows GFCIs to be installed on 2-wire circuits. Just have to use those stickers that come in the box that say no EGC GFCI protected...

30 years ago I had to do this on a couple of bungalows I owned. I was remodeling both of them .. one to rent and one to live in. Local inspector said I had to add ground wires and three way outlets on anything I was not replacing ..to bring the house up to code. The house had two wire black cable -- almost like a braided covering. Early Romex?

I believe we ran bare copper wire --- it was basically a loop in the basement and a loop in the attic -- with splices ... the kind with the copper cap that you crimp on.

The bathrooms and kitchen had to be rewired and GFI's installed ..

An inspector cant make u update thr wiring in a home to current code. It would be grand fathered in. U got duped!

Agree with both comments. But sometimes you may not want to bust up a particular wall (wallpaper?) to fish new Romex but you could sneak a single 14AWG conductor through there.

Another thing to look into as a stopgap is installing a GFCI recep in place of the first device on each circuit, this is also legal and allows you to install grounding type receps in ungrounded boxes so long as they are marked with stickers stating "GFCI protected - no equipment ground."

There are good reasons to go ahead and provide grounds however, the GFCI will only protect *you* but surge protectors etc. may rely on a good ground to function correctly.

Yes metal appliances need EGCs in case of a short to frame and surge suppressors need grounds to shunt surges...

 

[Norcal]

You can run a separate grounding conductor but the hitch is that it has to be run with the cable you wish to add the EGC to, so it's better just to replace the old/obsolete cable.

It used to be permissible to just run a grounding conductor over to the nearest cold water pipe, so if some has that when it was allowed, it's fine just can't do it today.

This is where the Chicago EMT way has it over NM.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

You can run a separate grounding conductor but the hitch is that it has to be run with the cable you wish to add the EGC to, so it's better just to replace the old/obsolete cable.

It used to be permissible to just run a grounding conductor over to the nearest cold water pipe, so if some has that when it was allowed, it's fine just can't do it today.

This is where the Chicago EMT way has it over NM.

When did they eliminate that allowance? Thats dumb. I dont see what the problem is with doing that way. Ive done it that way in many houses!

 

[sberry]

96 I think.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

96 I think.

Couldnt have been. I worked for an electrical contractor last year who did grounding retrofits under contract with PG&E's home energy savings program.

We ran separate ground wires for apliances and usually connected to cold water pipes. All the work was inspected...

 

[n8n]

You can run a separate grounding conductor but the hitch is that it has to be run with the cable you wish to add the EGC to, so it's better just to replace the old/obsolete cable.

It used to be permissible to just run a grounding conductor over to the nearest cold water pipe, so if some has that when it was allowed, it's fine just can't do it today.

This is where the Chicago EMT way has it over NM.

My understanding is that it does NOT need to be run directly alongside the existing cable, but DOES have to terminate at the same panel as the breaker for that circuit. Has that changed with the latest NEC though? I am at least one rev behind.

 

[GuyllFyre]

I saw too many electrical nightmares in this house (1900 Victorian) to not just run new 12-2 Romex.
There was Romex to BX to Knob & Tube connections all over the place.
Random wire nuts in walls holding Romex to BX, buried boxes, and a completely retarded move from a kitchen remodel they did in 1973-1974 timeframe. The whole kitchen is wired with 12-2 Romex, cool, all good, right?
One morning I came downstairs to a glowing outlet on my wall that the coffee maker was plugged into.
Yes, glowing hot outlet.
Turns out they ran 12-2 through the whole kitchen, ran 12-2 from the replacement breaker box (which was a complete mess of wires), to a point just under the wall between the kitchen and dining room, and then just patched together the whole thing with an existing piece of 14AWG BX with no ground.
The whole kitchen was running off of this and when the coffee maker turned on that morning, it helped draw enough current that the 14AWG BX was melting at the outlet due to the current draw.

Just do the deed, cut some holes, and run new 12-2 and in some cases 10-2 Romex. I did 10-2 feeds from the basement to the attic to feed the rooms that then got 12-2 to all the outlets, switches, and fixtures.

There are only a handful of outlets on 14-2 at this point and they are deemed "safe" by me because they are in areas where they will get very low draw and they are properly grounded.

It's a bit PITA to run all this new wire but you will feel better about it in the long run when you know you can plug an AC unit into the wall and the wiring won't burn your house down.

 

[frank_c]

Seems to me if I could pull a ground wire I could just as well pull new romex..

If it's like my house, the old wire wasn't stapled in the wall, just clamped at the metal box and stapled in the basement. Was easy to pull new 12/2 wire through the existing box to the basement.

I saw too many electrical nightmares in this house (1900 Victorian) to not just run new 12-2 Romex.

Mine's built in 1948 and I'm still finding stuff I don't like. Two more old boxes in a tiled wall that was covered by drywall...yeah, those are coming out.

 

[Beemer533]

....


Mine's built in 1948 and I'm still finding stuff I don't like. Two more old boxes in a tiled wall that was covered by drywall...yeah, those are coming out.

Yeah, I find some scary stuff in my 100 year old place.. I recently had to replace the dishwasher and this is what I found ;

Just crazy..

This post has been edited by the NSA

 

[Beemer533]

Yeah, I find some scary stuff in my 100 year old place.. I recently had to replace the dishwasher and this is what I found ;

The crazy part is that I discovered that after shutting off the dishwasher breaker(the line coming from the right) it was still live!
One of the lines in the wall box was hooked up to another breaker..
God only knows what some people are thinking...

This post has been edited by the NSA

This post has been edited by the NSA

 

[GuyllFyre]

YIKES!

I found a couple of things similar.
The more annoying things were the places where the cut holes in the lath and plaster just large enough to fit an outlet, hooked K&T, Romex, or BX to an outlet (depending on what was there or close or something), and screwed it directly to the wall and put a cover on it.

That was half the outlets in the house.

Now, I found out the hard way that literally HALF of the house was running off a single 15A breaker. Everything from the front porch to the back entry on the left side of the house (looking at it from the front) on the first and second floor was connected to a single 15A breaker. Probably a good thing as most of it was either K&T or BX or improperly run or grounded 14-2 Romex.

The remainder of the breakers had a couple of specifics, Stove, AC, and Freezer/Dishwasher circuit but the rest of the breakers were seemingly randomly used for various outlets around the first floor.

The scariest found but luckily had been cut off during some of my renovations was an unknown wire I had trimmed back. I removed the badly damaged and weathered aluminum siding at my front door and found a 14-2 Romex merely twisted together and then hidden under the aluminum siding. No tape, no wire nuts...

I'm really happy that I decided to rewire the whole house. It wasn't always easy but it was definitely worth the peace of mind.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yeah, I find some scary stuff in my 100 year old place.. I recently had to replace the dishwasher and this is what I found ;

Just crazy..

This post has been edited by the NSA

Blue wire nuts on #12 or #14? Those are too big!

And please do yourself and your health a favor and fix the problem thats causing that mold! Your lungs will thank you for it!

 

[sberry]

Couldnt have been. I worked for an electrical contractor last year who did grounding retrofits under contract with PG&E's home energy savings program.

We ran separate ground wires for apliances and usually connected to cold water pipes. All the work was inspected...

I looked for some copy I had saved but cant find it right now but this is worth looking at, I don't believe this has been legal thru a couple code revisions.
As far as I know you are allowed a wire from a device back to the panel, no daisy chains.

 

[sberry]

For replacement of non-grounding-type receptacles with grounding-type receptacles and for branch-circuit extensions only in existing installations that do not have an equipment grounding conductor in the branch circuit, connections shall be permitted as indicated in 250.130(C). C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following: (1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50 (2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor (3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates (4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure (5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service equipment enclosure If you use the water pipe, the connection must be within 5 feet of where the pipe enters the building.

 

[sberry]

You are permitted to replace a two-wire nongrounding type receptacle with a GFCI under the following in section 406.3 (3) Nongrounding-Type Receptacles. Where grounding means does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with (a), (b), or (c). (a) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with another nongrounding-type receptacle(s). (b) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-type of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked "No Equipment Ground." An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle. (c) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be marked "GFCI Protected" and "No Equipment Ground." An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding-type receptacles. When you make this change be very, very careful that you get the hot "black" wire on the right side of the outlet.


(B) With Circuit Conductors. By an equipment grounding conductor contained within the same raceway, cable, or otherwise run with the circuit conductors.
NEC HANDBOOK COMMENTARY;
One of the functions of an equipment grounding conductor is to provide a low-impedance ground-fault path between a ground fault and the electrical source. This path allows the overcurrent protective device to actuate, interrupting the current. To keep the impedance at a minimum, it is necessary to run the equipment grounding conductor within the same raceway or cable as the circuit conductor(s). This practice allows the magnetic field developed by the circuit conductor and the equipment grounding conductor to cancel, reducing their impedance.
Magnetic flux strength is inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the two conductors. By placing an equipment grounding conductor away from the conductor delivering the fault current, the magnetic flux cancellation decreases. This increases the impedance of the fault path and delays operation of the protective device.

 

[TractorJeff]

Guy with the bung-a-lows had to totally re-wire because he was going to rent!
If it was his own house, then No!