Adding hydro cooler to Dixie Chopper

[alan camby]

I am adding a B&M automotive trans cooler to my Dixie chopper to improve the cooling of the motor and hydraulics. I feel that the stock cooler is not cooling the hydro's enough and the flywheel fan is not generating enough air through the large stock cooler.

There are also two small coolers on the side of the motor. One is is for the hydro and one for the engine. I plan to use both of these for the engine. These both have great air flow but are to small to handle the job of both systems. IMO

If you would like, follow along on my picture thread of the install


Stock cooler between the seat and the air cleaner.

stock small coolers for the hydro (closest to engine) and the engine oil.

 

[alan camby]

First thing i have to do is move the air cleaner since the new cooler will not fit in the stock location.

Here is the stainless bracket i made.

new location for the air cleaner.

 

[alan camby]

Next i am working on the new mount for the B&M 70298 cooler.
The mount is made out of 1.5" x ~.08" thick square tube. The angle iron is 1.75" x .125" thick. The install will be drilling free, on the Dixie, since i am using existing holes in the frame.

 

[GeneralDisorder]

Have you measured temperature's and delta's across the coolers to determine the effectiveness of the stock coolers and allow you to measure any improvement (or lack of) from the new setup?

I ask because you only say "I feel" with regard to the stock cooler efficiency and that's not science.

GD

 

[alan camby]

Have you measured temperature's and delta's across the coolers to determine the effectiveness of the stock coolers and allow you to measure any improvement (or lack of) from the new setup?

I ask because you only say "I feel" with regard to the stock cooler efficiency and that's not science.

GD

No, I did not do any measuring. At first all I wanted to do was add a cooling fan to the stock cooler. After looking, I could not find a fan that fit in the space provided. The Smallest fan that I can find that has a good guard was 7".
Saw a lot of smaller fans but the opening around the bladed were quite large. For safety wanted to have it "finger safe" and wanted to keep sticks, leaves and large debris out of the fan. This new cooler fan is designed to **** the air through the cooler, feel this will further keep debris out of the fan.

Unfortunately, it is to late in the season to get accurate temperatures after a hour plus of mowing. Hope I am done mowing for the year.

As far as the efficiency, I am sure that i can get some kind of BTU chart from B&M for their cooler. The stock cooler has no kind of identification on it for me to search for a chart.

The new B&M is slightly larger. The main difference being the stock cooler is 3/4" Thick where the B&M is 1-1/4".

I feel that the main flaw with the stock setup is a lack of air flow over the cooler. On a hot day, I could never feel any air movement going over the cooler even with the motor at 3700rpm.

 

[GeneralDisorder]

It's notoriously hard to feel air being sucked past a cooler - much easier to feel it on the other side.

It just seems like a lot of trouble to go through without verification through temp measurements - if the fluid is never reaching close to a breakdown temperature then there's not going to be any real benefit to a larger cooler.

Without measurements you don't know if what you are doing is necessary, effective, or if it causes a problem that wasn't there before - such as reducing engine airflow or effective cooling. It's a really big gamble to re-engineer something like that without any metrics with which to gauge the changes you are making. Could be useful, could be harmful, or could just be a waste of time. Science is key. Without it we would still be making human sacrifices in response to crop failures....

GD

 

[alan camby]

It's notoriously hard to feel air being sucked past a cooler - much easier to feel it on the other side.

It just seems like a lot of trouble to go through without verification through temp measurements - if the fluid is never reaching close to a breakdown temperature then there's not going to be any real benefit to a larger cooler.

Without measurements you don't know if what you are doing is necessary, effective, or if it causes a problem that wasn't there before - such as reducing engine airflow or effective cooling. It's a really big gamble to re-engineer something like that without any metrics with which to gauge the changes you are making. Could be useful, could be harmful, or could just be a waste of time. Science is key. Without it we would still be making human sacrifices in response to crop failures....

GD

I can't feel the air moving on either side of the stock cooler. I don't know which side is supposed to be the suction. The cooler was mounted about the engine so far that no air movement can be felt.

Thousands of people install oil coolers every year on transmissions, hydraulic packs, and Engines.

Most if not all are done without any engineering. Companies such as B&M, Hayden, Derale, and many others stay in business because of these people buying them.

I am going with the theory that air flowing over the cooler is better then no flow at all. Don't know how this can hurt.

Thanks for your input, I will take my chances.

 

[Iron-Iceberg]

I'm going with General D on this one. Unless there are a lot of machines having heat related failures and this is a known problem I would leave it alone. The machine looks pretty new so I'm guessing this will void the warranty.
As to the thought that it can't hurt, are you sure? Maybe the machine will not get up to operating temps. The thick oil will starve the bearings and cause a failure. Seals not working at low temps etc.
It's a fix to a problem that never was.
And b&m has sold a lot of coolers to people who didn't need them. It's good for business.

 

[alan camby]

I'm going with General D on this one. Unless there are a lot of machines having heat related failures and this is a known problem I would leave it alone. The machine looks pretty new so I'm guessing this will void the warranty.
As to the thought that it can't hurt, are you sure? Maybe the machine will not get up to operating temps. The thick oil will starve the bearings and cause a failure. Seals not working at low temps etc.
It's a fix to a problem that never was.
And b&m has sold a lot of coolers to people who didn't need them. It's good for business.

The cooler fan is thermostatically controlled. The fan will not come on until the fluid reaches 175*F.
The machine is a 2006.
these machines are known for running hot.

The industrial version of my machine has 2 of the large coolers. They are the same part # as my stock unit. These industrials also have a large fan that runs all the time on the pumps.

 

[shovelhead91701]

You should send a picture and specs of this to Art Evans(started Dixie Chopper). He would love the idea! Heck the guy put a jet engine on a Chopper back in the early 90's IIRC.......lol

 

[alan camby]

I live about 40 min from the factory. Yes They put a Jet engine on one. Think it was on the TV show Home Improvement.

I grew up with Dixie choppers. My dad had two and the guy I worked for in High school had three.

Two of my bosses units were the Suburban Turbans (think that is how they spelled it). These came out before anyone was making a large air cooled vertical shaft engines. It had two 20hp Kohler engines that ran together. When the engines reached a certain RPM
The engines would couple with a centrifugal clutch. You then had to match the load on the engines with a vacuum gauge. They don't make this model anymore since Generac and Kohler are make much larger engines.

Besides the Diesel, Dixie has always used Verticle shaft engines to take advantage of the belt system Dixie uses.

 

[Displaced Hokie]

Dixie's are unique machines for sure.

Since you are running that external fan, you might have been better served to mount that cooler somewhere else. Keep in mind that the heat you are pulling from the trans you are now transferring to your air-cooled engine. Those other small coolers on the housing work from air blowing out from the engine fan, not pulling in. You might save your hydros and cook your engine. I'd already be suspect of engine oil temps since the engine oil cooler was installed. Mfg's don't usually add them unless there is an issue with oil temps already. All I'd say is take a shot of your crankcase temp sometime this summer and make sure it's OK.

If you did want the engine fan to move the air, a simple cowling that fit tighter to the fan shroud would have moved engough air I think.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[alan camby]

Dixie's are unique machines for sure.

Since you are running that external fan, you might have been better served to mount that cooler somewhere else. Keep in mind that the heat you are pulling from the trans you are now transferring to your air-cooled engine. Those other small coolers on the housing work from air blowing out from the engine fan, not pulling in. You might save your hydros and cook your engine. I'd already be suspect of engine oil temps since the engine oil cooler was installed. Mfg's don't usually add them unless there is an issue with oil temps already. All I'd say is take a shot of your crankcase temp sometime this summer and make sure it's OK.

If you did want the engine fan to move the air, a simple cowling that fit tighter to the fan shroud would have moved engough air I think.

Thanks for sharing.

With all do respect, I don't understand how the engine oil or engine will run hotter. I believe that this modification will have a more positive effect on the engine temps then the hydro temps.

I am really confused with this statement
"Keep in mind that the heat you are pulling from the trans you are now transferring to your air-cooled engine." How is this happening.

- Stock the engine is sucking some atmospheric temp and some hot air from the stock large cooler. This translates to more heat blowing over the motor and small coolers mounted on the engine.

-Stock the side coolers are receiving (yes I understand the air is blown out of the housing and through the coolers) air to the hydro cooler first. Next this hot air is blown over the second small engine oil cooler. The air has been preheated by the hydro cooler and is now blowing over the engine oil cooler.

- My setup the engine will receive atmospheric temp air blown over the engine fins and now I will not have one, but will have two engine mounted oil coolers.
I did not want to build a shroud to channel more air to be moved over the stock large cooler because this would have meant more hot air traveling through the engine fins and engine shroud mounted coolers.

- The new hydro cooler fan will move air up away from the engine and hot air naturally goes up. This new cooler is mounted at least 3 times further from the engine fan air intake. I did not want to mount the new cooler to far up and out of the way as I wanted to keep the cooler protected from tree branches and such.

 

[alan camby]

This is the factory setup

The hydros took priority in the cooling on these side oil coolers. The engine oil receives hot air from the hydro cooler. The two hoses going down to the oil filter location are the engine oil lines. The two lines that leave the picture are the hydro lines. This is the first stop for the hydro return to tank. After this cooler, the oil went to the factory large cooler mounted above the engine. This means the oil is hot from just leaving the wheel motor. This heat is transferred to the engine. While this hot air may still transfer some heat from the oil, It can't be a efficient as if the air was ambient

 

[alan camby]

Finished the wiring. still waiting on the special high temp clear Dixie hose for the supply line to the cooler.

 

[srmofo]

I live about 40 min from the factory. Yes They put a Jet engine on one. Think it was on the TV show Home Improvement.

used Verticle shaft engines to take advantage of the belt system Dixie uses.

Funny you mention this as the first thing that came to mind after reading the first post was "more power. grunt,grunt,grunt"

IIRC it was a small helicopter turbine mounted in it but its been so long since I have seen it Im not sure. I honestly thought it was just a show prop since it had cheesy graphics and sound effects to go along with it

Edit I just had to go find it
http://vimeo.com/30096902 skip to 1:05

 

[alan camby]

Funny you mention this as the first thing that came to mind after reading the first post was "more power. grunt,grunt,grunt"

IIRC it was a small helicopter turbine mounted in it but its been so long since I have seen it Im not sure. I honestly thought it was just a show prop since it had cheesy graphics and sound effects to go along with it

Edit I just had to go find it
http://vimeo.com/30096902 skip to 1:05

I had to dig up that old video today also. Thanks for posting it here.

 

[GeneralDisorder]

Thermo-switch should be on the ground side of the fan being located in a cooler - in case of short it will cause the fan to run instead of blowing the fuse.

GD

 

[fatboy99]

Its interesting that the mowers in the video Have large dual coolers. Mine only has the hydro cooler and no engine oil cooler. But my drive pumps have cooling fan's. I've never really checked the oil temps after mowing to see where they run. I'm only doing a little over an acre with lots of tree's and it only takes me a little over an hour to mow.

 

[shovelhead91701]

With all do respect, I don't understand how the engine oil or engine will run hotter. I believe that this modification will have a more positive effect on the engine temps then the hydro temps.

I am really confused with this statement
"Keep in mind that the heat you are pulling from the trans you are now transferring to your air-cooled engine." How is this happening.

- Stock the engine is sucking some atmospheric temp and some hot air from the stock large cooler. This translates to more heat blowing over the motor and small coolers mounted on the engine.

-Stock the side coolers are receiving (yes I understand the air is blown out of the housing and through the coolers) air to the hydro cooler first. Next this hot air is blown over the second small engine oil cooler. The air has been preheated by the hydro cooler and is now blowing over the engine oil cooler.

- My setup the engine will receive atmospheric temp air blown over the engine fins and now I will not have one, but will have two engine mounted oil coolers.
I did not want to build a shroud to channel more air to be moved over the stock large cooler because this would have meant more hot air traveling through the engine fins and engine shroud mounted coolers.

- The new hydro cooler fan will move air up away from the engine and hot air naturally goes up. This new cooler is mounted at least 3 times further from the engine fan air intake. I did not want to mount the new cooler to far up and out of the way as I wanted to keep the cooler protected from tree branches and such.

I think his statement was from looking at the earlier pictures, In the earlier pictures it looked like you had mounted the cooler directly over the flywheel fan. maybe he was thinking that the fan pulled air into the engine rather than sucking it through the cowling?

 

[alan camby]

Thermo-switch should be on the ground side of the fan being located in a cooler - in case of short it will cause the fan to run instead of blowing the fuse.

GD

You might be right that the thremal switch should be on the ground side. I modeled my wiring to what B&M recomended. I added the relay so I could kill the fan with the key switch and not worry about the thermal sticking on and running the battery down. i Think it would have been good to run the control power through the thermal to save the therm switch from the starting inrush current. Oh well.

thanks

B&M's wiring

 

[alan camby]

Stopped by the Dixie dealer to pick up 3 foot of the clear hydro hose.
Spent about 45 min looking at the new Xcalibers, this is Dixies current premium mower.
Pics in this post are of the Xcaiber
The price was just shy of $12K per machine.

They had two of them. The far one is Generac powered and the close one is Kohler.

Here is the Generac with dual coolers. One is for the right wheel motor and pump and the other is for the left. The Kohler machine has a similar dual setup

Here you can see the fan under the seat. I question how efficient a fan is blowing on a housing without a shroud or cooling fins. IMO the fan would be better used at blowing the heat off of the hydro coolers. But this is just MO. I talked to the owner of the dealer about what I was doing and he did not act like i was doing anything stupid. He just listened and never commented. He did say that Dixie is always changing the way they do things.

 

[alan camby]

Back at the ranch.

Installed the Clear hose. Decided to put it on the cooler return line since this seems to be the current way Dixie is routing them. I like the Idea of the Less heat resistant clear being on the return. They put Clear hoses on so that when the hydro fluid is changed out you can confirm all of the air has purged from the system before you drive the machine and cause deadly cavitation.

The clear line is seen returning to the tank. The black line going to the Tee is the supply to cooler.

 

[alan camby]

Added two hose cushion clamps to help route the hose and keep it from chafing.
Luckly there was already a hole in the frame to install a coupling nut to act as a standoff.

Birds eye view.

 

[shovelhead91701]

HAHAHA!!! I bet when you saw the "factory" setup you were like "take that naysayers!"

 

[alan camby]

I Will say that i appreciate all comments both positive and constructive.
I will admit that it would have been very nice to be able to take some temperature readings over the summer in order to justify my modification better.

I have taken readings in the past with my hand held thermal, but for the life of me can't remember what the temps were since this was years ago.

 

[alan camby]

I was not happy with the paint job on my cooler mount. So, I took it all back apart and changed a few things to add more cool factor to the mount.
Painted it this time in the garage, last time i painted it outside.

 

[alan camby]

One more close up

 

[thightower]

Nice job.

 

[ClickClickBoom]

You might want to put a dab of epoxy on the 2 piece feet of that plastic fan mount. I ran a couple of those style fans on S-10 w/ V8 and over time the fans would vibrate the mounts apart and fall off. I imagine the same might be true on a mower.

Not sure if that can happen here. Can't remember if they could slip off both ways, or if your OK since it could only slide down.

 

[steevie]

I used the stock hydro cooler for the oil and discarded the 2 oil coolers on side of
Mower.
I got a derale fan and cooler from amazon for 100.00 buck , its a pusher or puller fan.
The b&m was to much money .227.00$
The clear hoses r on amazon two.
Screw Dixie chopper ,if I could find part elsewhere ,I will.
There not special hoses 'there just clear hydro hose,
I got dimention of hoses or u can look under DC.

 

[Kevin54]

Holy Zombie thread. But anyways......Steevie...Welcome to Garage Journal.

Hang around and make sure you take in all of the threads, and post up any pics of rides or garage, or both.


BTW....I now see in this thread what I need to make for my Cub Compact Tractor...A beer cooler holder

 

[steevie]

How do you post pics???

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

Nice job!

I'm coming here kinda late in the program ... does the mower have temp gauges for the engine oil and hydro fluid? If not, I think your next project should be to gauge the thing up. Temps, pressures, amps, volts, cylinder head temp, EGT, etc.

Then lights. Amber strobes all around. Does it have a backup beeper?

Then the final project ... an air compressor and a train whistle.

I'm serious about most of the suggestions. You'll know when to stop.

Seriously ... nice work.